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How do you guys feel about the Offensive Line

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  • To chime in on the PFF ranking systems, they are horrible in my opinion, and I cherry pick their statistics all of the time. For example, cornerback targets/completions/touchdowns/etc. is a great statistic which is completely objective and measurable. An offensive line individual grading mark is beyond terrible, hence them telling us we had the best center in the league the past however many seasons, not true. I also think the defensive player pressure/hits/sacks/ect. statistic is a great one. But, the safety individual grading mark is horrible, when we had Renaldo Hill, he was one of the best safeties in the game apparently in 2009. I don't value any of the offensive line grades, and when it comes to Bolles, the narrative is true, he is a bad offensive lineman who if anything has regressed since his rookie season.

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    • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
      Another thing I feel that is being overlooked in this whole Bolles fiasco along with all the coaching/scheme changes is that in 2 seasons he’s played next to 3 different LGs. As a rookie he was next to Max Garcia who couldn’t block anyone and last year he started out next to Leary before finishing the season strong next to Turner.

      Why is this important in my eyes? We’ll cohesion among the oline is a huge factor in success. Garcia couldn’t block anyone so Bolles is essentially on an island with an edge rusher having a 2 way go while the QB deals with an interior pass rusher. Leary is a massive OG who likes to short set and anchor as close to the LoS as possible because he can’t move as well so again Bolles is on an island. Now Turner is a guy that is better in space than in a phone booth so he wouldn’t short set players the way Leary and Garcia would which cuts down on the space to Bolles inside shoulder, throw a chip in and voila Bolles is suddenly much improved over what he was just because the guy next to him gels with him so much better and Bolles doesn’t have to be so terrified of the speed rush around the corner because of the chip. Risner should help Bolles out a lot as they play together and learn what they are good at as Risner can do play in space and in a phone booth at a high enough level. McGovern will need a lot of help from Leary and James is going to have to be on an island a good bit.

      If Bolles can just stop getting perpendicular with the LoS he can be a very good LT. He needs to trust his feet though and not try to race edge rushers to the corner. Be patient, mirror them, and hit them with a quick hard punch and keep hand fighting until the QB gets the ball out. On the Bolles hold, watch James, the difference is night and day. Bolles has his arms out like an airplane and is perpendicular with the LoS almost immediately after the snap, that’s fear and panic that you can’t get kick fast enough to stop the speed rush. James is squared up to his rusher with his hands tight into his chest waiting to deliver a punch. Bolles rusher did line up further outside but there was a TE there to mitigate the outside rush so there was no reason to turn and run.

      Bolles needs to do a lot of one on one mirror drills because I don’t see a player who trusts his feet and it throws his balance off which causes him to do a whole lot of weird stuff with his arms. Grab Von, Chubb, and Munchak after practice and just go at it until it becomes second nature. And get out of that mentality of having your QB hit as like having someone hit your wife. Holding is going to kill the play, give the QB a chance to manipulate the pocket and get a pass off sometimes.
      Great post! I do think Bolles has learnable techniques that will give him more success. Even though Flacco doesn't get rid of the ball particularly quick he does step up and deliver better than anyone since Manning. Bolles like you said needs to trust his QB to not sack himself and block so that the QB has a chance to step up and deliver late if necessary.

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      • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
        To chime in on the PFF ranking systems, they are horrible in my opinion, and I cherry pick their statistics all of the time. For example, cornerback targets/completions/touchdowns/etc. is a great statistic which is completely objective and measurable. An offensive line individual grading mark is beyond terrible, hence them telling us we had the best center in the league the past however many seasons, not true. I also think the defensive player pressure/hits/sacks/ect. statistic is a great one. But, the safety individual grading mark is horrible, when we had Renaldo Hill, he was one of the best safeties in the game apparently in 2009. I don't value any of the offensive line grades, and when it comes to Bolles, the narrative is true, he is a bad offensive lineman who if anything has regressed since his rookie season.
        I don't take it as gospel but I think it can be a valuable tool. There is a lot more that goes into a game than grading each player on each play but I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss what they do at PFF.
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        • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
          No one is saying he didn’t. I’m saying Wilkinson hasn’t looked better at LT than Bolles and he’s going up against depth guys. At the end of the day as it currently stands the best offensive line we put out will include Bolles in it and that’ll likely be at LT because no one has shown that they can perform at a higher level there. Risner probably could and I do believe Bolles would be better in the short term at LG rather than LT but the coaching staff is in no rush to make that switch.
          Actually, most have said we’re making too much out of one holding call which implies he played well overall. The holding call was one of several bad plays. Wilkinson may not have looked better, but he hasn’t started 32 games. If Bolles can’t play better than a backup after that many games starting it says we have a backup quality player at LT. I think it’s fair to give Bolles a chance to prove himself under Munchak. If he can’t consistently perform and minimize penalties over the first 4-5 games of the season, it’s time to change.

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          • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
            Actually, most have said we’re making too much out of one holding call which implies he played well overall. The holding call was one of several bad plays. Wilkinson may not have looked better, but he hasn’t started 32 games. If Bolles can’t play better than a backup after that many games starting it says we have a backup quality player at LT. I think it’s fair to give Bolles a chance to prove himself under Munchak. If he can’t consistently perform and minimize penalties over the first 4-5 games of the season, it’s time to change.
            you all are living in fantasy if there is a legit LT on the open market ATM or really till next off-season. we are stuck with bolles least though this season. Wilkinson doesn't have the athletic ability to be a LT in the nfl. he looked good at LG when leary went down. and thats where he may make his spot on this roster if anything. if bolles doesn't preform this year expect us to be in the market for an LT weather the draft or fa
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            • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
              Sometimes when a line coach is told he should bench a certain starter, he looks at the guys standing behind him on the sideline and says, "Nah, he's doing just fine."
              I understand that but I feel Elijah Wilkenson is without a doubt much much better than Garrett Bolles.

              Wilkenson came out of the same draft as Bolles and he’s had as many different coaches as Bolles.

              He's switched positions from guard to RT to LT and he played well at LT against the 49ers at a moments notice with very little practice and I say very little practice because considering the times I attended camp this summer, I didn’t see Wilkenson line up at LT not even once.

              The time to make the switch is now, Let's honor Pat Bowlen by putting the best players on the field that give this team the best chance to win as opposed to placing guys on the due to where they were drafted.
              Last edited by Sam_Z; 08-21-2019, 02:37 PM.
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              • Originally posted by JW7 View Post
                I don't take it as gospel but I think it can be a valuable tool. There is a lot more that goes into a game than grading each player on each play but I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss what they do at PFF.
                Completely dismiss ? As I said, some statistics they produce are great, they are measurable, but some are horrible. These allow for individual opinion to influence them and subjective to dictate the result, like the one you cited, that is why I personally cherry pick their statistics and dismiss the one you used.

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                • Originally posted by Sam_Z View Post
                  I understand that but I feel Elijah Wilkenson is without a doubt much much better than Garrett Bolles.

                  Wilkenson came out of the same draft as Bolles and he’s had as many different coaches as Bolles.

                  He's switched positions from guard to RT to LT and he played well at LT against the 49ers at a moments notice with very little practice and I say very little practice because considering the times I attended camp this summer, I didn’t see Wilkenson line up at LT not even once.

                  The time to make the switch is now, Let's honor Pat Bowlen by putting the best players on the field that give this team the best chance to win as opposed to placing guys on the due to where they were drafted.
                  I'm fine with whatever the coaches decide. We'll see what happens.
                  "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                  • Originally posted by Sam_Z View Post
                    I understand that but I feel Elijah Wilkenson is without a doubt much much better than Garrett Bolles.

                    Wilkenson came out of the same draft as Bolles and he’s had as many different coaches as Bolles.

                    He's switched positions from guard to RT to LT and he played well at LT against the 49ers at a moments notice with very little practice and I say very little practice because considering the times I attended camp this summer, I didn’t see Wilkenson line up at LT not even once.

                    The time to make the switch is now, Let's honor Pat Bowlen by putting the best players on the field that give this team the best chance to win as opposed to placing guys on the due to where they were drafted.
                    That was unnecessary. Bowlen's legacy is more than any positional player on the team as if having any bad player could tarnish his achievements

                    There may be a time for Bolles to go and there are few ways that can happen until then I think Fangio, Scangarelly, and Munchak are a little closer to the action and possibly in a better position to make the final determination on Bolles.

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                    • Originally posted by Rastic View Post
                      That was unnecessary. Bowlen's legacy is more than any positional player on the team as if having any bad player could tarnish his achievements

                      There may be a time for Bolles to go and there are few ways that can happen until then I think Fangio, Scangarelly, and Munchak are a little closer to the action and possibly in a better position to make the final determination on Bolles.
                      I don’t think it was, Pat worked hard to create a winning culture here and saying we should put the best guys on the field to honor that legacy is not an unnecessary statement.
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                      • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                        I'm fine with whatever the coaches decide. We'll see what happens.
                        Fair enough!

                        I’m just curious and I’m not asking who should start, however I just want your opinion on Wilkenson right now?

                        He is an udrafted free agent which seems to be a strength of Elways, and that is the ability to find quality undrafted players but how far could you see him going in the NFL, wether it be with the broncos or another team?
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                        • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
                          Because strength really isn’t the issue, when your technique is as bad as his at times, you’re effectively limiting your strength to just your arms or hands. You can’t anchor very well if you’re off balance, have poor leverage and can’t square up with your defender. Now your hands are outside on the shoulder while the defender is in your chest, it’s just all bad. But when he’s patient and his technique is good, he can stifle a pass rusher very effectively. And he has the quickness to mirror damn near every pass rusher, he just doesn’t trust it for whatever reason. All the potential is there, who can bring it out of him? That’s why Munchak was brought in and Munchak likes working with him
                          This is a very insightful counter. Thanks for taking the time to lay out your position instead of countering with sarcasm. What you say makes sense to me and now I can see why we’d want to keep him around.

                          Others on the board, take notes on what a well thought out response is. You know who you are. You came at me with weak sarcasm on the game thread Monday night. I certainly will try to be thoughtful in my response as well.

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                          • Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                            I'm fine with whatever the coaches decide. We'll see what happens.
                            Originally posted by Rastic View Post
                            There may be a time for Bolles to go and there are few ways that can happen until then I think Fangio, Scangarelly, and Munchak are a little closer to the action and possibly in a better position to make the final determination on Bolles.
                            Wait...based on everything I've read here lately I thought we fans were in charge of that...

                            Last edited by L.M.; 08-21-2019, 04:35 PM.

                            Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

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                            • So I take it as Everybody is Fired Up one way or other when it comes to the Offensive Line....LoL

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                              • I don’t wanna steal anyone’s pitchfork or torch before you run the monster bolles out of town

                                But

                                https://mavensports.io/broncos/news/...UaZhTdOx-6keQ/


                                Fangio's response was surprising.

                                “On the play you’re particularly talking about, it wasn’t his fault there on that," Fangio said on Wednesday. "He was supposed to get a chip from the tight end. He set accordingly to get that chip. The tight end didn’t chip him, which put Garett in a bad spot and caused that holding penalty. That wasn’t Garett at all.”
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