It really is time to move on.

[CanDB]

As has been thoroughly discussed, this FO will remain as long as the Trust is in control. My only hope is that the FO can actually stop and properly assess their overall approach to this roster and franchise. I think a lot of the issues have been due to a certain amount of closed minded hubris.

I really don't feel obligated to re-hash all of the head scratching things that have happened over the last few years. Bottom line is this franchise has been on a steady and sharp decline for many years. They keep doing the same things over and over and it's netting poor results.

Please try and take a different approach and start admitting you (the FO) are 100% responsible for the sad state of this franchise.

I find it a little ironic that I see so many posts like "We don't want to become the Browns". Guess what.... We've become a turnstile at QB and HC. We are well below .500 every year. We've become a punchline on a national level. I think we're already becoming a bottom feeder.

Please, for the love of this franchise, turn it around. Admit that a carousel of FAs and HCs is not the answer. Stabilize this organization and start making pragmatic decisions.

I like your stuff dude.....keep it coming!

If I can add, we need need NEED to find a GM, or whatever name they want to call it, to take total charge of the roster, including Identity, Strategy, Signings,Trades, whatever. It is crystal clear that we do not know how to build an O anymore, with, as you say, repetitive nonsense. Definitely not insanity, as some like to describe that process (it's an over-rated, over-used definition!), but the process of repeating the same mistakes and seemingly not learning from it, is definitely bordering on incompetence at some level.

And as each week passes by without Lock taking over, I give this group less points....and believe me, the jar is getting low.

And because this one is getting to my core, if they do not have their franchise QB figured out (that includes going HIGH in the draft) by end of season, then in my opinion, someone/some group should be let go. Seriously, Just for the record, lots of us folks are not Lock lovers so much as QB lovers. We know the importance of having a quality QB, and we still have no idea who it might be. We just want to know if it is Lock or not, and we don't care about the blemishes that will come when we start him. Every QB goes through an adjustment as some sort. The good ones grow, and definitely benefit from actual playing experience, almost all the time.

And this decision is critical in terms of the offseason roster moves, be it FA or The Draft. because we need to know if we have to go after a QB again, because it alters our approach to signing other positions of need. So if it's me at the helm, and I decide Lock isn't starter material, and I go big on one of the QB draftees, I would be looking Oline in FA and likely in round 2 of the draft. I would hate to have to go that route.....BUT if I did not have a quality QB on the roster I would work my way around landing one, while making sure I have the other key players in place.

Yes, week by week....my clock ticks away. Like I say, if Lock isn't the guy, at least we all know that, and understand what we have to do this offseason. But we have to get it right, because we are draining draft capital as well as FA expenditures.

[Rastic]

John Elway certainly deserves a portion of the blame as to what has happened the last three years, but I hardly ever see anybody mentioning Joe Ellis. Not sure many people realize this but Kyle Shanahan not getting a chance in DEN has a lot to do with Ellis and the history there with Mike Shanahan. John Elway wanted to bring in Mike Shanahan this off-season but was veto'd by Ellis, a story that has been long lost in the 3-8 struggles. It's the easy solution to say "Fire John Elway" but it's much harder for people to dive in to the reality of what's going on with the team without an acting owner. There is blame and accountability that can go around. Has John Elway missed on QB? So far yes, and it's a damn hard job to find one. Has he had an impressive draft in back to back seasons? Absolutely he has.

Fans need to embrace that this team is rebuilding and that it will be ugly for 1-2 years (at the most hopefully). Kyle Shanahan took the 49ers through a rebuild where his first two seasons were awful. He's been able to build through the draft and free agency the last two seasons and so far it's paid off in year 3.

The players I've spoken to love what Vic Fangio and this staff have done so far within the culture and are wanting to build on that heading into next year.

To me this is quite a surprising point you've brought up that I have already read from a handful of other sports writers. Despite an awful season with setbacks, last minute losses, blowouts, etc., by and large, players have bought in to the system. Such a different outlook than under VJ and one that portends well for the team should they continue to develop and grow.

[Rastic]

So, the 2015 world championship roster just magically formed itself?

It grew out of magic Papa John's pizza that Manning planted on the 50-yard line. :thumb:

[jflee66]

The truth is that it wasn’t John nor Joe it was all Peyton Manning, Gary Kubiak, Wade Philips and John Fox. Without those guys there are no division titles and there is no Super Bowl victory.

This is the worst stretch ever in Broncos history. If John doesn’t go anywhere neither will the Broncos.

It’s not for the courage of the fearless crew, the minnow would be lost and so would you

Is that the truth, nothing to do with JE. I say not. Even though PM played a big part in the championships. But where would NE be without Brady. They probably wouldn't even have half of the SB championships without him. But the game is a team sport, from top to bottom. If one person or position is to blame then go out and sale the farm for the best at that position and then we would never lose another game. Right? Oh, and I would have loved to have been lost on a deserted island with Ginger.

[Sam_Z]

So, the 2015 world championship roster just magically formed itself?

The 2015 roster was loaded with talent but so was the 2012-13 rosters but the guys that pulled together in 2015 are more responsible than the guy that put it together.

There were plenty of talented rosters formed throughout the league and I’m sure those general managers would not get the same credit when compared to the coaching staff and the players of their respective teams.

I’ve asked this before and I’ll ask again, would you guys give Jerry Jones or Carmen policy the same credit that you continuously give John Elway?

I’ve given John plenty of credit for that but was not all him nor should he continue to get a free pass while referencing what happened prior to 2016. Again this has been the worst stretch in Broncos history and it’s under johns watch. He is the common denominator hence he should be held accountable.

[Lumiere]

It grew out of magic Papa John's pizza that Manning planted on the 50-yard line. :thumb:

I was thinking chicken parm...but same general concept.

[Jonny_Quest]

Jerry Jones has actually gotten pretty good at building rosters.

He used to be really bad at it.

The problem is that he sticks with a bad coach, and instills s culture where talent trumps behavior.

That’s why my eyelid twitches when talking about firing Elway. Now that he’s getting good at drafting people want to run him out of town.

If we keep drafting like we’ve been drafting the past two years, and we keep focusing on technique and fundamentals like we have this year, we will be contenders year on year.

Patience, grasshoppers. Patience.

[CanDB]

Jerry Jones has actually gotten pretty good at building rosters.

He used to be really bad at it.

The problem is that he sticks with a bad coach, and instills s culture where talent trumps behavior.

That’s why my eyelid twitches when talking about firing Elway. Now that he’s getting good at drafting people want to run him out of town.

If we keep drafting like we’ve been drafting the past two years, and we keep focusing on technique and fundamentals like we have this year, we will be contenders year on year.

Patience, grasshoppers. Patience.

So you are giving him a pass on the QB/Oline situation.....after a number of draft years? I am not saying his overall drafting has been terrible, but IMO he has failed to rebuild his O, other than finding Lindsay, and landing Risner and Sutton. Chubb (on D) was an easy pick to make. But we are talking years here.

[Ondavi]

Elway is tremendously overcompensated for the pathetic job that he is not doing. And, he has tremendously overpaid waaay too many awful players with waaay too much monies. That is reality. Embrace.

[RocketArm006]

I like your stuff dude.....keep it coming!

If I can add, we need need NEED to find a GM, or whatever name they want to call it, to take total charge of the roster, including Identity, Strategy, Signings,Trades, whatever. It is crystal clear that we do not know how to build an O anymore, with, as you say, repetitive nonsense. Definitely not insanity, as some like to describe that process (it's an over-rated, over-used definition!), but the process of repeating the same mistakes and seemingly not learning from it, is definitely bordering on incompetence at some level.

And as each week passes by without Lock taking over, I give this group less points....and believe me, the jar is getting low.

And because this one is getting to my core, if they do not have their franchise QB figured out (that includes going HIGH in the draft) by end of season, then in my opinion, someone/some group should be let go. Seriously, Just for the record, lots of us folks are not Lock lovers so much as QB lovers. We know the importance of having a quality QB, and we still have no idea who it might be. We just want to know if it is Lock or not, and we don't care about the blemishes that will come when we start him. Every QB goes through an adjustment as some sort. The good ones grow, and definitely benefit from actual playing experience, almost all the time.

And this decision is critical in terms of the offseason roster moves, be it FA or The Draft. because we need to know if we have to go after a QB again, because it alters our approach to signing other positions of need. So if it's me at the helm, and I decide Lock isn't starter material, and I go big on one of the QB draftees, I would be looking Oline in FA and likely in round 2 of the draft. I would hate to have to go that route.....BUT if I did not have a quality QB on the roster I would work my way around landing one, while making sure I have the other key players in place.

Yes, week by week....my clock ticks away. Like I say, if Lock isn't the guy, at least we all know that, and understand what we have to do this offseason. But we have to get it right, because we are draining draft capital as well as FA expenditures.

Thanks, much appreciated.

I really think it’s time to lose the old school dogma that’s been holding this team back. Back in the day, you never started rookies and you adhered to a certain system, making your players learn the system before giving them a shot.

It’s different now. College players aren’t playing pro style anymore and the overall philosophy of the league has changed. You must adapt - just like any profession. We live in an age where you must play your young players and commit to a franchise QB. Put him in situations to succeed. Play to his strengths and slowly install more pro style plays as he matures. It’s working across the league. Time to adapt.

[CanDB]

Thanks, much appreciated.

I really think it’s time to lose the old school dogma that’s been holding this team back. Back in the day, you never started rookies and you adhered to a certain system, making your players learn the system before giving them a shot.

It’s different now. College players aren’t playing pro style anymore and the overall philosophy of the league has changed. You must adapt - just like any profession. We live in an age where you must play your young players and commit to a franchise QB. Put him in situations to succeed. Play to his strengths and slowly install more pro style plays as he matures. It’s working across the league. Time to adapt.

Exactly!! I mean, if Andy Reid let Mahomes do his thing, and Harbaugh lets an even more "unique" QB do his thing, and both at such a young age.....why not join the new generation? Build your teams around studs, not making them conform, or be restricted to a high degree.

Like I say to the refs of the world, this too applies....LET 'EM PLAY!!!

[Jonny_Quest]

So you are giving him a pass on the QB/Oline situation.....after a number of draft years? I am not saying his overall drafting has been terrible, but IMO he has failed to rebuild his O, other than finding Lindsay, and landing Risner and Sutton. Chubb (on D) was an easy pick to make. But we are talking years here.

2013-17 were not good drafting years. And we're paying the price for that right now. People are ignoring how good Elway's FO is at finding UDFA treasure, though.

18-19 have been phenomenal classes. And they continue to find UDFA treasure.

I don't think it's luck, either. There's been a philosophy shift of going for proven leadership and production in college years which is translating to the field.

And people seem to think finding a franchise QB in short order is a basic GM skill. Simply not true. Some things to consider:

1. Goff is looking like a bust. Took 4-5 years to figure that out.
2. Winston and Mariota turned out to be busts
3. Mayfield could very well turn out to be a bust
4. Jury is still out on Wentz
5. Josh Allen will likely be a bust when he doesn't have an epic defense to carry him

The only sure thing that turned out to be a sure thing was Luck, and he had to retire at age 29.

Finding a good QB is hard. Unless you're Dallas Indianapolis where you blindly stumble onto them in succession.

[GiddyupGetEm]

2013-17 were not good drafting years. And we're paying the price for that right now. People are ignoring how good Elway's FO is at finding UDFA treasure, though.

18-19 have been phenomenal classes. And they continue to find UDFA treasure.

I don't think it's luck, either. There's been a philosophy shift of going for proven leadership and production in college years which is translating to the field.

And people seem to think finding a franchise QB in short order is a basic GM skill. Simply not true. Some things to consider:

1. Goff is looking like a bust. Took 4-5 years to figure that out.
2. Winston and Mariota turned out to be busts
3. Mayfield could very well turn out to be a bust
4. Jury is still out on Wentz
5. Josh Allen will likely be a bust when he doesn't have an epic defense to carry him

The only sure thing that turned out to be a sure thing was Luck, and he had to retire at age 29.

Finding a good QB is hard. Unless you're Dallas Indianapolis where you blindly stumble onto them in succession.

I think 2018 draft was strong. But why are fans so bullish on the 2019 draft? Risner is a solid starter in year one, which is above expectation for a second rounder. But other than that, 2019 has been average at best. I still think trading down for Fant was an awful move.

In truth, Elway’s drafted so badly that 2019’s C- draft looks like a B+ to Bronco fans.

[CanDB]

2013-17 were not good drafting years. And we're paying the price for that right now. People are ignoring how good Elway's FO is at finding UDFA treasure, though.

18-19 have been phenomenal classes. And they continue to find UDFA treasure.

I don't think it's luck, either. There's been a philosophy shift of going for proven leadership and production in college years which is translating to the field.

And people seem to think finding a franchise QB in short order is a basic GM skill. Simply not true. Some things to consider:

1. Goff is looking like a bust. Took 4-5 years to figure that out.
2. Winston and Mariota turned out to be busts
3. Mayfield could very well turn out to be a bust
4. Jury is still out on Wentz
5. Josh Allen will likely be a bust when he doesn't have an epic defense to carry him

The only sure thing that turned out to be a sure thing was Luck, and he had to retire at age 29.

Finding a good QB is hard. Unless you're Dallas Indianapolis where you blindly stumble onto them in succession.

I will agree on this.....QBs are not easy to find. I would be a fool to state otherwise. And yes, a number of the QBs I thought were going to be good were either not good, or are tailing off. Injuries can change players, so a guy like Wentz seems to have lost a chunk of his game. As did RGIII, Bridgewater and others. Not sure if Allen is going the way you say, and Goff is "off", but may not be done.

Having said that, I don't particularly care for who we drafted to replace Manning, nor do I like either of the last 2 vets we signed. I was not keen on either, the day we signed them.

It's true, it's not easy. But you can not keep missing like they have, and say it's ok. KC knew something about Mahomes. Houston saw something in Watson. Baltimore hooked onto a young mobile dude, who just happens to be The MVP as we speak. There are some great QBs in this league, and a couple of decent tiers below them. There are also a couple of tiers of not so good QBs. We seem to be sticking nearer the bottom two tiers..

Further....our Oline has been a messy situation for far too long! And Oliners that are selected earlier in drafts are often good players. What's our problem, other than Risner?

So yes I agree with you that it is not an easy science, this QB thing. But we have been awful since Manning declined, and our Oline should be much better by now!

[RocketArm006]

2013-17 were not good drafting years. And we're paying the price for that right now. People are ignoring how good Elway's FO is at finding UDFA treasure, though.

18-19 have been phenomenal classes. And they continue to find UDFA treasure.

I don't think it's luck, either. There's been a philosophy shift of going for proven leadership and production in college years which is translating to the field.

And people seem to think finding a franchise QB in short order is a basic GM skill. Simply not true. Some things to consider:

1. Goff is looking like a bust. Took 4-5 years to figure that out.
2. Winston and Mariota turned out to be busts
3. Mayfield could very well turn out to be a bust
4. Jury is still out on Wentz
5. Josh Allen will likely be a bust when he doesn't have an epic defense to carry him

The only sure thing that turned out to be a sure thing was Luck, and he had to retire at age 29.

Finding a good QB is hard. Unless you're Dallas Indianapolis where you blindly stumble onto them in succession.

You’re right. Finding a QB is hard. It’s way harder to find him when you bring in a bridge QB every year. IMO it’s simply time to commit to a young franchise QB. Maybe it’s Lock, maybe it’s a #1 pick in the draft. I know for darn sure it isn’t another FA band aid.

The best shot at finding him is drafting him and playing him right away. Most of the guys you mentioned are still very young. I would venture a guess a couple of them will be mainstay starters for many years.

Sure, there’s risk involved, but I personally think the odds are much better when you draft and commit.

My fingers are crossed for Lock.

As far as recent drafts and undrafted FAs, I agree. We actually have a decent core of young and exciting players. If the FO can stop the turnstile at QB and HC, the future could be bright.

Again, fingers crossed.