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  • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Lindsay is apparently worth 1 year $2 million, which is the guaranteed money on his contract.
    2 different sources has his guaranteed money at 1M actually.
    salary $2,250,000 signing $500,000 roster $343,750 cap# $3,093,750 GTD $1,000,000 1 year cash total $3,093,750($3,093,750)

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    • Originally posted by brianmcfarlane View Post

      2 different sources has his guaranteed money at 1M actually.
      salary $2,250,000 signing $500,000 roster $343,750 cap# $3,093,750 GTD $1,000,000 1 year cash total $3,093,750($3,093,750)

      If I simply go by Adam Schefter.....

      Texans are giving RB Phillip Lindsay a one-year, $3.25 deal that includes $1 million guaranteed, per source.

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      • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

        I am not going to force the issue, but I am not sure how anyone could have done too bad with the likes of Saquon Barkley, and the 3 talented backs in Minnesota in '17. As for 2020, we were 13th in rushing with what I would describe as a good backfield. So I am not sure Shurmur is a Coaching phenom based on those stats alone. And in fairness to Lindsay, he had 2 - 1,000 plus rushing years as a rookie and 2nd year player, along with 35 receptions in each....and made the pro bowl as a rookie!

        So I think he's worth the contract he got and more. But I feel for him in Houston. This kid is an over achiever in my books, and a fan fav. And I think he was a great fit for this city. Now, that doesn't get you a big contract, but those stats (and lets not forget, he missed 5 games last year and may have got 800 plus rushing yards otherwise).

        I will say though that he is not the biggest body, and he takes a lot of pounding. But you gotta love that type of player, that type of guy.
        So based on the first part, you're agreeing with me that Shurmur knows how to use RBs? Since he's shown that.

        As for Lindsay, he's greatly overvalued by Broncos fans, some of that is due to where he went to college. His market value was small as evidenced by his contract. I thank him for his time in Denver and wish him well, but he's not that good.

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        • I have to laugh when some fans have to revise history to try to make their point - Like "The Broncos did not think much of Shaq Barrett". That is totally untrue. Shaq wanted to be a starter and get starter reps and that was not going to happen in Denver with Chubb and Miller. The Broncos also were not going to pay $5.5 million for a backup edge rusher in the reality of a hard salary cap. Barrett bet on himself and was proven right once he got to be a starter. He was not coming back to the Broncos because he wanted to go somewhere he could start.

          The reality is you can not keep everyone with the CAP.

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          • Originally posted by brianmcfarlane View Post

            2 different sources has his guaranteed money at 1M actually.
            salary $2,250,000 signing $500,000 roster $343,750 cap# $3,093,750 GTD $1,000,000 1 year cash total $3,093,750($3,093,750)
            Turns out I gave him more credit than deserved. The guarantees I saw added up to $2 million. Does your chart take into account the signing bonus? Cause I factored that into guarantees since it will be paid shortly.

            EDIT: Yep, just looked, it's $1 million total including signing bonus.
            Last edited by Butler By'Note; 03-20-2021, 01:29 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

              So based on the first part, you're agreeing with me that Shurmur knows how to use RBs? Since he's shown that.

              As for Lindsay, he's greatly overvalued by Broncos fans, some of that is due to where he went to college. His market value was small as evidenced by his contract. I thank him for his time in Denver and wish him well, but he's not that good.
              Not what I said. I said almost anyone could use Saquon Barkley with success. And in '17, The Vikes had an enormously "talented" backfield. Talented = skill, not only coaching effort.
              Last edited by CanDB; 03-20-2021, 04:11 PM.

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              • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                Not what I said. I said almost anyone could use Saquon Barkley with success. And in '17, The Vikes had an enormously "talented" backfield. Talented = skill, not only coaching effort.
                But what I was responding to was a poster who said that Shurmur had no idea how to use his talent. As I showed, and you've highlighted, that's not true, he has been able to utilize his talent in the running game, the last 4 seasons worth of data have proven that.

                And I never said it was all skill or all coaching, it's both, it always has to be in the NFL, because even the worst teams have paid coaches and players as well.

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                • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                  But what I was responding to was a poster who said that Shurmur had no idea how to use his talent. As I showed, and you've highlighted, that's not true, he has been able to utilize his talent in the running game, the last 4 seasons worth of data have proven that.

                  And I never said it was all skill or all coaching, it's both, it always has to be in the NFL, because even the worst teams have paid coaches and players as well.
                  I am not saying those backs were ineffective by any means. But when I first read your response, and saw the names of the players he had, I did not exactly see over-achievement. They were good seasons but not exactly unexpected. Does not mean he is poor coach...so I'll stop there.

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                  • I feel like I can blame both Shurmur and Lock for Lindsay not doing as well this last year. As explosive as Lindsay has been he needs at least a semi-functional Offense around him to succeed. He isn't the kind of RB that is going to take over a game. He can't overcome poor line play. He can't bail out a QB who is struggling to find targets. But he would have been a great complimentary piece in a functional Offense. That wasn't us and it's kind of a chicken-or-egg issue with Shurmur/Lock. The OC needs to create/install/plan and the QB needs to digest/decide/execute. That didn't happen. We left a lot on the table last year. A lot of yards, a lot of plays, a lot of points.
                    Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

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                    • Originally posted by listopencil View Post
                      I feel like I can blame both Shurmur and Lock for Lindsay not doing as well this last year. As explosive as Lindsay has been he needs at least a semi-functional Offense around him to succeed. He isn't the kind of RB that is going to take over a game. He can't overcome poor line play. He can't bail out a QB who is struggling to find targets. But he would have been a great complimentary piece in a functional Offense. That wasn't us and it's kind of a chicken-or-egg issue with Shurmur/Lock. The OC needs to create/install/plan and the QB needs to digest/decide/execute. That didn't happen. We left a lot on the table last year. A lot of yards, a lot of plays, a lot of points.
                      Agreed. I am of the belief that this will improve with the two of them working together for a second year and hopefully having a "normal" training camp. In Drew we trust.

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                      • Originally posted by listopencil View Post
                        I feel like I can blame both Shurmur and Lock for Lindsay not doing as well this last year. As explosive as Lindsay has been he needs at least a semi-functional Offense around him to succeed. He isn't the kind of RB that is going to take over a game. He can't overcome poor line play. He can't bail out a QB who is struggling to find targets. But he would have been a great complimentary piece in a functional Offense. That wasn't us and it's kind of a chicken-or-egg issue with Shurmur/Lock. The OC needs to create/install/plan and the QB needs to digest/decide/execute. That didn't happen. We left a lot on the table last year. A lot of yards, a lot of plays, a lot of points.
                        I think Lindsay is very similiar to Darren Sproles in his skillsets and how he should be used. I think Lindsay left because it became obvious Shurmur's offense was not going to take advantage of Lindsay's skillsets.

                        What bothered me the most about Lindsay in 2020 was his lack of use in the passing game

                        A narrative I herd being pushed out on one of the Bronco channel youtube videos was when Lindsay was on the field it was a known running down in 2020. This was probably due to his reduced role in the passing game in 2020. He was getting 1 passing target per 10 rushing attempts....so yea based on his use it was probably safe for defenses to play against the run when he was on the field.

                        Lindsay

                        2018 - reception targets per game = 3.1, rushing attempts per game -12.8
                        2019 - reception targets per game = 3.0, rushing attempts per game - 14.1
                        2020 - reception targets per game = 1.2, rushing attempts per game - 10.8

                        Lindsay got as many passing targets in 2020 (14) as Freeman (13) while Gordon got 44. Gordon got about 3.1 passing targets per game.

                        Lindsay did play the least amount of games in 2020...11 compared to 15 in 2018 and 16 in 2019. He did start the same amount of games (8) in 2018 as in 2020.

                        RB/FBs were more involved in the passing game in 2019. RBs in general got 72 passing targets in 2020. In 2019 the RB/FBs got 125 passing targets. Freeman got 48 targets and Lindsay got 50 targets. Gordon was about as active in the passing game in 2020 as both Lindsay and Freeman were active in the passing game in 2019.
                        Last edited by Hadez; 03-21-2021, 07:31 AM.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                        • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                          I think Lindsay is very similiar to Darren Sproles in his skillsets and how he should be used. I think Lindsay left because it became obvious Shurmur's offense was not going to take advantage of Lindsay's skillsets.

                          What bothered me the most about Lindsay in 2020 was his lack of use in the passing game

                          A narrative I herd being pushed out on one of the Bronco channel youtube videos was when Lindsay was on the field it was a known running down in 2020. This was probably due to his reduced role in the passing game in 2020. He was getting 1 passing target per 10 rushing attempts....so yea based on his use it was probably safe for defenses to play against the run when he was on the field.

                          Lindsay

                          2018 - reception targets per game = 3.1, rushing attempts per game -12.8
                          2019 - reception targets per game = 3.0, rushing attempts per game - 14.1
                          2020 - reception targets per game = 1.2, rushing attempts per game - 10.8

                          Lindsay got as many passing targets in 2020 (14) as Freeman (13) while Gordon got 44. Gordon got about 3.1 passing targets per game.

                          Lindsay did play the least amount of games in 2020...11 compared to 15 in 2018 and 16 in 2019. He did start the same amount of games (8) in 2018 as in 2020.

                          RB/FBs were more involved in the passing game in 2019. RBs in general got 72 passing targets in 2020. In 2019 the RB/FBs got 125 passing targets. Freeman got 48 targets and Lindsay got 50 targets. Gordon was about as active in the passing game in 2020 as both Lindsay and Freeman were active in the passing game in 2019.
                          That sounds right based on what I remember seeing while watching the games. The opposing D's would just flood all the gaps when he was on the field. Shut him down.
                          Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

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                          • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                            I think Lindsay is very similiar to Darren Sproles in his skillsets and how he should be used. I think Lindsay left because it became obvious Shurmur's offense was not going to take advantage of Lindsay's skillsets.

                            What bothered me the most about Lindsay in 2020 was his lack of use in the passing game

                            A narrative I herd being pushed out on one of the Bronco channel youtube videos was when Lindsay was on the field it was a known running down in 2020. This was probably due to his reduced role in the passing game in 2020. He was getting 1 passing target per 10 rushing attempts....so yea based on his use it was probably safe for defenses to play against the run when he was on the field.

                            Lindsay

                            2018 - reception targets per game = 3.1, rushing attempts per game -12.8
                            2019 - reception targets per game = 3.0, rushing attempts per game - 14.1
                            2020 - reception targets per game = 1.2, rushing attempts per game - 10.8

                            Lindsay got as many passing targets in 2020 (14) as Freeman (13) while Gordon got 44. Gordon got about 3.1 passing targets per game.

                            Lindsay did play the least amount of games in 2020...11 compared to 15 in 2018 and 16 in 2019. He did start the same amount of games (8) in 2018 as in 2020.

                            RB/FBs were more involved in the passing game in 2019. RBs in general got 72 passing targets in 2020. In 2019 the RB/FBs got 125 passing targets. Freeman got 48 targets and Lindsay got 50 targets. Gordon was about as active in the passing game in 2020 as both Lindsay and Freeman were active in the passing game in 2019.
                            I don't think that's a good comparison because Sproles was a great returner both on punts and kickoffs, and he also caught a lot of footballs. So far in his career Lindsay has shown to be much more one dimensional.

                            Size wise the comparison works, but I don't think the skillsets are similar.

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                            • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                              I don't think that's a good comparison because Sproles was a great returner both on punts and kickoffs, and he also caught a lot of footballs. So far in his career Lindsay has shown to be much more one dimensional.

                              Size wise the comparison works, but I don't think the skillsets are similar.
                              You do have a point about special teams. Lindsay does not seem to want to play them from my limited research on the topic.

                              As for ball catching...

                              Sproles caught 74% of the passes he was targeted.

                              Lindsay has caught 71% of the passes he was targeted.

                              IMO the only difference is in the pass catching aspect is how they were being used.
                              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                                You do have a point about special teams. Lindsay does not seem to want to play them from my limited research on the topic.

                                As for ball catching...

                                Sproles caught 74% of the passes he was targeted.

                                Lindsay has caught 71% of the passes he was targeted.

                                IMO the only difference is in the pass catching aspect is how they were being used.
                                The percentage is nice but he isn’t very natural catching with his hands which is what hurts him. Too often he’s double catching it and it limited his yac opportunity. Although I don’t think that’s a big deal for a RB as there are ways to mitigate that. The angle (or Texas) routes of the backfield allowed him to body catch it and keep running. We saw him score a TD like that in preseason his rookie year, we saw it early this year with him and Gordon lined up together in the pistol.

                                If he was allowed to walk solely because of that, then that should be an indictment on Shurmur. There are many ways to put Lindsay in the game and have the defense not anticipate a run. He could be the jet sweep motion guy, he could line up in the slot and just run a shallow cross where’s he’s just in a foot race with the defender, you can do some pistol and shotgun stuff with him and Gordon. A lack of creativity shouldn’t be a reason to give away a 1K yard RB. 1K yards may not mean as much anymore but his YPC was very good despite defenses “anticipating a run”. He was an energizer for an offense that tended to be stagnant.

                                Nothing against Mike Boone, he seems to have similar qualities of both Lindsay and Gordon and maybe he just needs a chance to prove himself but Lindsay has proven himself a very capable RB when healthy. And for what both guys are making we could easily afford that. And it wasn’t like Lindsay was ever going to get a top of the line contract, he came into the NFL older than most rookie RBs and will likely have a string of one year contracts until his production starts to dip.

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