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  • #31
    Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
    Yeah interceptions change games, and Simmons had a couple of nice plays in that regard. However for the type of money he is commanding, he isn't that ballhawk you fear, no one is game planning against where Simmons is. I would say Simmons is opportunistic with his takeaways. Last year two of them were gimmes on tipped or floated passes,anyone could have caught them, but the other two were nice plays, one was a game-changer while the other was in a blowout loss in garbage time. I think his best asset is those long arms where he can break up passes.

    On the tackle statistics, yes, I don't want to hear them used to support Simmons while the same person will also discredit them for another player they don't like. If you want to use them across the board as a consistent indicator of greatness, that is fine, but you don't get to pick and choose as others do with the PFF ratings as well. I also never said he wasn't a good tackler. In 2018 he was widely inconsistent, but don't tell me what I do or don't want to see because I said in 2019 he was great as a tackler and a pass defender. I just don't think a guy who performed great for one year is elite, and I don't think anyone would consider him a game-changing type of player, outside of Denver of course.
    I think this season he was a game changer and arguably our best defensive player. I also think he still has upside. Which is why I would like to lock him up long term. I think this year is only a start year 2 under Fangio I would be surprised to see him play better. He is more familiar with the play book and I felt he improved with the whole defense as the season went on. Either way he is young talented and still has upside. I think he can be better then he was this year. Only time will really tell.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
      I think this season he was a game changer and arguably our best defensive player. I also think he still has upside. Which is why I would like to lock him up long term. I think this year is only a start year 2 under Fangio I would be surprised to see him play better. He is more familiar with the play book and I felt he improved with the whole defense as the season went on. Either way he is young talented and still has upside. I think he can be better then he was this year. Only time will really tell.
      I agree, but I don't think you give a guy the biggest contract ever at his position due to this. I honestly think if Elway had the same thought process Simmons would be locked up for what he wants and this issue would be put to bed. However it looks like that isn't going to happen, and I think if it doesn't you have to think that maybe, just maybe, Elway is optimistically cautious about his future too, but not fully all the way there. I believe that is warranted based on the only one great year of play.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
        I agree, but I don't think you give a guy the biggest contract ever at his position due to this. I honestly think if Elway had the same thought process Simmons would be locked up for what he wants and this issue would be put to bed. However it looks like that isn't going to happen, and I think if it doesn't you have to think that maybe, just maybe, Elway is optimistically cautious about his future too, but not fully all the way there. I believe that is warranted based on the only one great year of play.
        Ya it is probably better for that. I just hope if he balls out it gets done and preferably before Adams gets a new deal cause he will be the highest paid safety after his rookie deal.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
          Ya it is probably better for that. I just hope if he balls out it gets done and preferably before Adams gets a new deal cause he will be the highest paid safety after his rookie deal.
          Adams will probably get paid before Simmons, but I think it's not out of the realm of possibility Elway would just take the stance of, you are not as good as Adams, so that won't be the starting point for any negotiations. I also think as a league it would be the thinking as well. What people sometimes forget is, if the market is reset, you need to have someone who would value Simmons at the new top, would teams feel that Simmons is worth being paid more than Adams ? I doubt it. And if they do, franchise tag and trade for quality compensation. But even then I wouldn't see a team parting with more than a 2nd rounder for Simmons.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
            Adams will probably get paid before Simmons, but I think it's not out of the realm of possibility Elway would just take the stance of, you are not as good as Adams, so that won't be the starting point for any negotiations. I also think as a league it would be the thinking as well. What people sometimes forget is, if the market is reset, you need to have someone who would value Simmons at the new top, would teams feel that Simmons is worth being paid more than Adams ? I doubt it. And if they do, franchise tag and trade for quality compensation. But even then I wouldn't see a team parting with more than a 2nd rounder for Simmons.
            I don't think any s should make as much money as Adams but let's say he gets like 20m a year 15m a year would be a deal for simmons
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            • #36
              NFL Network Insider Ian Rapoport reported that the Broncos and Simmons are not expected to reach a deal before Wednesday's 4 p.m. ET deadline, per sources informed of the situation.

              Oh well, I was hoping he would be signed long term but playing on the tag it is... maybe. It would be interesting to know what the negotiations are and where it is they can't agree. IIRC, the Broncos could re-tag him next season for 120% of this seasons salary, making it ~13.8M next season.
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              • #37
                Saw reports saying that Denver was offering Simmons a deal making him the “5th or 6th” highest-paid safety.

                5) Earl Thomas - $13.75M/year
                6) Devin McCourty - $11.5M/year

                My guess is that Denver offered Simmons a deal in the $12M range (AAV). Our 26-year-old 2nd team All-Pro safety just bet on himself. For good reason.

                The other 2nd team All-Pro safety last year was Tyrann Mathieu, who received a 3 year, $42M deal from KC in the 2019 free agency period (including a 2020 cap hit of $16.3M). Mathieu’s contract has an AAV of $14M.

                Let’s take a look at two other 26-year-old All-Pro safeties in the NFL, Kevin Byard and Eddie Jackson. These players should have been the primary model for Elway & Co. to base the framework of Simmons’ new deal off of.

                Byard signed a 5 year, $70.5M extension ($14.1M AAV) with the Titans last summer. Jackson, who blossomed as a FS under Fangio with the Bears, inked a 4 year, $58.4M deal ($14.6M AAV) in January to stay in Chicago.

                Want to talk about accolades and stats? Fine.

                2019
                Byard - 84 tackles, 5 INT, 9 PD (none)
                Jackson - 60 tackles, 2 INT, 5 PD (Pro Bowl)
                Simmons - 93 tackles, 4 INT, 15 PD (2nd team All-Pro)

                Career (since 2017)
                Byard - 268 tackles, 17 INT, 33 PD (1x Pro Bowl, 1x 1st team All-Pro)
                Jackson - 184 tackles, 10 INT, 26 PD (2x Pro Bowl, 1x 1st team All-Pro)
                Simmons - 258 tackles, 9 INT, 24 PD (1x 2nd team All-Pro)

                Mike Klis mentioned something about zero Pro Bowls to Simmons’ name— but is that justified? We all know how the Pro Bowl is nothing but a popularity contest. That aside, Simmons 100% should have been offered a deal STARTING in the $14M AAV range. If I was the FO, I’d be willing to negotiate up to $15-16M because he is worth it. Safety isn’t a glamorous position in football, especially since the nature of their position is fairly complex and they have many responsibilities on defense. Simmons has plenty of football IQ and athleticism to bat— and he’s only 26. You also talk about a guy who has done everything right (just like a younger CHJ), volunteering and dedicating his time and money towards the Denver community, a high character voice in the locker room, and played excellent through TWO different defensive schemes (VJ and Fangio).

                Meanwhile an actual head-case like Jamal Adams will probably get $16-20M from NYJ or any other team in football that could afford him. He resets the market if we don’t get a deal done with Simmons before 2021 FA.

                Don’t forget about Minkah Fitzpatrick, who has ALL the leverage in the 2022 offseason against the Steelers since they gave up a 1st round pick for him. Fitzpatrick might just become the first $20M safety in the NFL. He resets the market if we tag Simmons next year again and try to hash things out in 2022 FA.
                Last edited by HDbroncos02; 07-16-2020, 10:38 AM.
                2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
                Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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                • #38
                  If Simmons performs well again he will get paid. There is a question of consistency that he seemed to correct last season, but the previous seasons he could look like an elite talent one drive and be out of position the next. But you could also argue the consistency issues probably had more to do with Joseph than Simmons. It’s the hardest position to play on defense IMO and I don’t have a problem letting him prove he can do it again. If he does he will definitely get his money, if he doesn’t maybe we get him on a cheaper deal.

                  Either way I don’t think he’s leaving the Broncos anytime soon. Elway typically seems to favor drafting replacements when the player has a year (or two) left on his deal, there was no S drafted this year unless you want to count on a potential conversion by Ojemudia. Obviously bad drafting created a need to overhaul some positions which took away from this but even in this past draft you still see some evidence of this with Agim and Harris, Ojemudia and Bouye, Strnad and Davis or Jewell (if he doesn’t improve), and possibly even Cleveland being groomed as a potential replacement for Sutton down the line.

                  Edit: But the price could get outrageous next offseason for a variety of factors. For one Simmons could still improve and likely will with a second year in the system and another year removed from Joseph who I think stunted his development. Secondly, Adams will likely reset the market and Harris, Williams, and Simmons will all be negotiating off that deal. I doubt any of them get tagged a second time so they’ll probably all play a waiting game to top each other. Harris probably becomes the first domino to fall as he’s the most likely to resign (good team and he’ll be 29 in October so it’ll be a shorter deal which is good for us). Williams will probably hit FA since Brees likely retires and even though that also opens cap for them to get a big deal done, they’ll have other guys they’d probably like to divvy it up between he’ll fall on their priority list. Simmons may sign before Williams but I think that’ll depend on how well or how poorly the team plays this season. The better we play, the more incentive it’ll give him to stay IMO. That being said Williams hitting FA would give us a potential fall back plan although we generally don’t do well with top FAs.
                  Last edited by beastlyskronk; 07-16-2020, 11:56 AM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
                    If Simmons performs well again he will get paid. There is a question of consistency that he seemed to correct last season, but the previous seasons he could look like an elite talent one drive and be out of position the next. But you could also argue the consistency issues probably had more to do with Joseph than Simmons. It’s the hardest position to play on defense IMO and I don’t have a problem letting him prove he can do it again. If he does he will definitely get his money, if he doesn’t maybe we get him on a cheaper deal.

                    Either way I don’t think he’s leaving the Broncos anytime soon. Elway typically seems to favor drafting replacements when the player has a year (or two) left on his deal, there was no S drafted this year unless you want to count on a potential conversion by Ojemudia. Obviously bad drafting created a need to overhaul some positions which took away from this but even in this past draft you still see some evidence of this with Agim and Harris, Ojemudia and Bouye, Strnad and Davis or Jewell (if he doesn’t improve), and possibly even Cleveland being groomed as a potential replacement for Sutton down the line.
                    If the Broncos let sutton go that will be a huge mistake. Expecially for a late rounder
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post
                      If the Broncos let sutton go that will be a huge mistake. Expecially for a late rounder
                      It’s 2, potentially 3 seasons from now. They’ll have plenty of time to see how he develops, plus it never hurts to have a contingency plan especially one with his measurables.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
                        It’s 2, potentially 3 seasons from now. They’ll have plenty of time to see how he develops, plus it never hurts to have a contingency plan especially one with his measurables.
                        i don;t see it. Cortland has 2 inches on him and 10 pounds. not to mention Sutton is Surprising fast and quick and does well to get separation down field. while Cleveland was struggling to sperate from College QBs. Cleveland at best looks like a poors mans Sutton, i perfer Winfree or PAtrick from what i have seen
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                          That is the great thing about a salary cap and keeping parity in a league. When you hit on a draft class or two and you develop them into star players, at some point you will have to choose who to let go, and who to pay. I guess one positive of Elway being so bad at drafting over a period of time there is that Simmons is the only player from a period of what, 3 or 4 years who will be up for a big extension ? I was once a critic of Elway for not signing guys sooner actually, Malik Jackson being the main one on that, but Elway does seem to not have that approach.

                          I do think it is a case by case basis though, for example with Lindsay there is no reason to do it. I also think it is very premature to mention all those guys who haven't played yet or are no where near extension time, way premature. Plus if you are hoping Hamler, Jeudy, and Sutton all develop into top players at their position, along with Fant at tight-end, there is a zero percentage chance all sign extensions to be here long term. In a perfect world where they all develop into stars, you can maybe keep two into their second contract, possibly three, depending on how the cap situation is that time. But no way do you have three high paid receivers plus a tight-end, I'd put those hopes out of your head right now to save disappointment.



                          I wouldn't, and I don't think most would who are not looking at it with those Orange and Blue tinted shades on, but you are free too. I just don't understand calling Simmons an elite player, and arguing against him being a one year wonder if you put stock into Pro Football Focus and their gradings, they clearly would say he is. Or do you only put stock into it when it suits your chosen stance on an argument ? Genuine question.
                          I don't understand how you can't get that grading out higher each year is the possibility of improvement, and doesn't necessarily mean "one year wonder". Normally, people save that moniker for down the road, looking back at a player who only played outstanding ball for one year. They don't usually attach it to someone immediately after having a great year. Especially when that someone is just 4 years into their career. If he had been around average for 7 years and had a breakout year, yeah, on year wonder fits. But having an outstanding year the last year of your first contract, seems silly to label it anything other than improvement. Because the inescapable trough is, even if it technically fits YOUR definition of "one year wonder," it absolutely fits the definition of improvement.

                          Calling someone a one year wonder after 4 years in the league seems unnecessarily negative. It has nothing to do with orange colored glasses (which cracks me up, because half the board thinks I'm too negative, and you think I'm too orange colored).
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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                            Adams will probably get paid before Simmons, but I think it's not out of the realm of possibility Elway would just take the stance of, you are not as good as Adams, so that won't be the starting point for any negotiations. I also think as a league it would be the thinking as well. What people sometimes forget is, if the market is reset, you need to have someone who would value Simmons at the new top, would teams feel that Simmons is worth being paid more than Adams ? I doubt it. And if they do, franchise tag and trade for quality compensation. But even then I wouldn't see a team parting with more than a 2nd rounder for Simmons.
                            All of this is well and good; Elway won't pay him, you don't think he's elite, maybe we tag him again, but the bottom line is if he's not our starting safety, whoever is, won't be as good. How does that not make sense? Is our defense better with Smith, Marshall, Locke, Holder or Coleman playing instead of Simmons?

                            And you can write this down right now.....if Simmons repeats or improves upon 2019 in 2020, we are going to be paying significantly more than 14 or 15 million a year, or we'll be trotting out someone else to start in 2021.
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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
                              All of this is well and good; Elway won't pay him, you don't think he's elite, maybe we tag him again, but the bottom line is if he's not our starting safety, whoever is, won't be as good. How does that not make sense? Is our defense better with Smith, Marshall, Locke, Holder or Coleman playing instead of Simmons?

                              And you can write this down right now.....if Simmons repeats or improves upon 2019 in 2020, we are going to be paying significantly more than 14 or 15 million a year, or we'll be trotting out someone else to start in 2021.
                              Elway is running the Broncos into the ground!

                              A good GM drafts well, uses player development to avoid overpaying free agents, and uses the savings to reward Broncos entering free agency with good contracts.

                              Elway on the other hand does the COMPLETE OPPOSITE! He drafts poorly, then low balls his few successful draft picks for their second contract, and then intentionally overpays free agents (most FAs don’t want to come here anymore because we are losing).

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by GiddyupGetEm View Post
                                Elway is running the Broncos into the ground!

                                A good GM drafts well, uses player development to avoid overpaying free agents, and uses the savings to reward Broncos entering free agency with good contracts.

                                Elway on the other hand does the COMPLETE OPPOSITE! He drafts poorly, then low balls his few successful draft picks for their second contract, and then intentionally overpays free agents (most FAs don’t want to come here anymore because we are losing).
                                Oh please!! Running this team to the ground?? Maybe he knows the cap is going to plummet the next couple of years and he's making the best choice for the better of the team. You ever think of that? Yes, we have cap space now to sign Simmons but it is widely speculated that the cap will fall. Paying him now means other up and coming players are going to have to be let go.

                                Elway has done an exceptional job drafting these last couple years. NO GM WILL HIT 100% and demanding John does is ridiculous. Last draft and our current one I will put up against any team and we win. He has done better than any GM drafting the last couple of years, imo

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