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  • #61
    Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post
    Budda Baker just signed a huge deal in AZ, he just set the bench mark for Simmons deal....
    Four years, $59 million ($14.75M/year) and $33 million guaranteed. Baker has lined up all over the place for AZ while being a terrific run defender and a solid in coverage (despite zero career interceptions). It’s hard to justify him as the highest-paid safety in the league over guys like Tyrann Mathieu, Eddie Jackson, Kevin Byard, and especially... Justin Simmons. But the Cardinals did what they had to do to lock up one of their best, young defensive players on the team.

    I previously thought a deal in the $14M range annually for Simmons would be acceptable as long as the guaranteed money checked out, but now I’m thinking there’s no way Denver retains him for anything less than $15M/year. To think their offer over the summer was in the $11-12M range makes the FO look even more ridiculous now.
    2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
    Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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    • #62
      Originally posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
      Four years, $59 million ($14.75M/year) and $33 million guaranteed. Baker has lined up all over the place for AZ while being a terrific run defender and a solid in coverage (despite zero career interceptions). It’s hard to justify him as the highest-paid safety in the league over guys like Tyrann Mathieu, Eddie Jackson, Kevin Byard, and especially... Justin Simmons. But the Cardinals did what they had to do to lock up one of their best, young defensive players on the team.

      I previously thought a deal in the $14M range annually for Simmons would be acceptable as long as the guaranteed money checked out, but now I’m thinking there’s no way Denver retains him for anything less than $15M/year. To think their offer over the summer was in the $11-12M range makes the FO look even more ridiculous now.
      John still has too much of the car salesmen in him. Lol

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Letswinplz77 View Post
        [/B]

        This last paragraph is where you seem to disconnect from what seems reasonable. You're saying "if he does as good or better next year, and the market has jumped again, we'll just tag him and trade him," when the idea SHOULD be to keep the really good players. They could have paid him 15 a year for the next 4 or 5 years, watched that very quickly become the 6th or 7th highest at that position, and been happy to have him. It's very very simple; both sides made a bet Wednesday. Simmons is betting he'll be as good or better. Elway is betting he won't be. Because if Elway believes the 2019 Justin Simmons is at least what we will get going forward, he was crazy to not lock that down for 15/year. And you're crazy if you think another team won't overpay for talent. EVERY SINGLE YEAR we see it, eventually at every position. Plenty of people thought Chicago was crazy for the contract they gave Jackson in 2018. I promise you, if he balls out again, Simmons will get more than 15/year somewhere, even if he has to play out another tag at 14 million.
        Time will tell, but you are making assumptions as your reasoning for forming this opinion. I am also not saying just tag and trade, but it would become a possibility, it's business and it comes down to controlling the asset in a situation like this, it is one of many options. This is where your reasoning becomes flawed though in my opinion. The idea that because every year we see teams overpay for talent justifies us doing so, which you seem to say makes it a solid move because of the fast-moving inflated market at the position currently, I don't agree. Maybe Simmons wanted more than 15 million, who knows, you don't. This Baker guy in Arizona signing that contract sets the market now at that price and unless Simmons replicates his play I would be walking away from the table if he requests upwards of 20 per year, that is just my take on the situation.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
          The only players worth keeping according to some posters on this board are those that actively outperform their rookie contracts. When it is time for an elite, home-grown talent to be paid what they are worth-- they are suddenly seen as disposable on here. CHJ took a hometown discount and still ended up getting demonized in the end for holding out for a slight raise. For the last five years, there have been numerous threads and posts about trading one of our all-time franchise greats, Von Miller. If and when Justin Simmons signs a fair extension with Denver for $15M/year, a number that will undoubtedly be a bargain in 3-4 years, he will get the same treatment as Von on this board, sadly. Simmons is a legitimate star and arguably the best free safety in the league right now. He may not rack up 8-10 interceptions a year, but his snap-to-snap impact is vital to the success of our defense. I mean, he is an All-Pro for a reason. I get it, the salary cap for the next couple of seasons is unclear, especially with COVID-19 and the new CBA going into effect. But that didn't stop KC from securing Patrick Mahomes and Chris Jones to long-term deals. Will it bite them in the butt later? Maybe. It's just not realistic to expect not to pay our top players what they are worth. Low-balling our stars when it comes time for their second contract does not set a good precedent for our franchise. It makes me wonder what will happen when it comes time to extend our 2018 gems, Bradley Chubb and Courtland Sutton. Of course Denver should not acquiesce to every pending free agent on the team, nor should they wildly over-pay them-- but as you said, $14-15M is hardly unreasonable for a top safety in the NFL today. The fact that they tried to negotiate a 2014 CHJ-type extension where they make Simmons only the 5th or 6th highest-paid player at his position (~$12M) is almost insulting. I am glad Simmons did not take that offer.
          Chris Harris signed an extension that was conservative on his end where he didn't bank on elite performance during the course of his extension. Chris got the upfront money which tapered off over the course of the deal, but spread out over the life of the contract put him I believe as the 6th highest paid cornerback at the time, as the second-best cornerback on our team. It was a fair deal that the fanbase spun into "a home town discount" storyline, it was fair. With Chris, if he took a shorter-term deal, banked on himself performing really well, then he would of cashed in during the middle of his original contract. But, he took the safer long-term commitment and then decided once the Broncos absorbed the initial risk that he wasn't happy with that anymore. I don't see that as fair, and fans need to remember that there are 2 sides at the negotiating table, and with Simmons, it wasn't unreasonable to ask for another year of great play before fronting up the money. And as I said above, who knows, maybe Simmons was asking for 20 already, and maybe the Broncos said if you do it again no problem. But this idea that he was happy with 14 per year and the Broncos didn't want to pay it is all just speculation, no one knows what Simmons was trying to get, none.

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          • #65
            Mike Klis ... "Broncos cap guy Rich Hurtado and Simmons' agent Todd France talked Monday and agreed to disagree. Broncos felt like they made competitive offer that would have made Simmons NFL's top 5 or 6 -paid safety.
            As was his right, Simmons bet on himself to do better."

            Hard to know what 5th or 6th highest is because that range is between 11.5 and 14M average/year or we could say 12.75M/year is in the middle. I don't know exactly what was offered but being the 5th or 6th highest paid is right about where Simmons is at this point in his career.
            Fangio has done very well with safeties in his defenses, virtually regardless of where they were drafted; example is Eddie Jackson a 4th round pick. Or Dashon Goldson 4th round in S.F. Adrian Amos was a 5th round pick. Now Simmons a 2nd team All Pro in his 4th season, his first 3 seasons I wouldn't have called him a top 5/6 safety... maybe top 10? It is very possible that Fangio and his defense can plug in another safety and get good results again... I hope the Broncos can keep him though.

            I'm not sure why, other than his tackling numbers but Budda Baker has been selected as a 1st team All Pro and has 2 Pro Bowls in his 3 seasons. His pass coverage rating is not anything special either 106 and 125 QB ratings against him, gave up 4 TDs in 2019. Just because the Cardinals decided to pay him doesn't mean it is a good deal for them.

            Even with another franchise tag for 2021 Simmons would still not get 14M/year ... ~13.8 yes.
            I was hoping the Broncos would extend him but we don't even know what Simmons was asking for ... he is/was not the #1 safety in the league and 15M would make him the highest paid.
            sigpic

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            • #66
              Look Simmons is good is he Great? Not Yet. Can Be Yes. I look as this has to be a Show Me prove to me that you are just as good as a Steve Atwater or Dennis Smith or even T.J. Ward show me 1st that you are then you will get paid it is that simple. If you are just the 5th best in the League and not The Best then you get what you deserve.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
                Look Simmons is good is he Great? Not Yet. Can Be Yes. I look as this has to be a Show Me prove to me that you are just as good as a Steve Atwater or Dennis Smith or even T.J. Ward show me 1st that you are then you will get paid it is that simple. If you are just the 5th best in the League and not The Best then you get what you deserve.
                What does a great safety look like to you? You listed Atwater, Smith, and Ward... but they’re all different players and made impacts in different ways. What does Simmons need to do to show you that he’s better than the 5th-best? And let’s say he IS the 5th-best, are you really willing to let him walk to free agency over a $2-3 million difference in annual salary? Last time I checked, top five at any position is “elite”. It’s not like Simmons is a Dak Prescott-type of player where he is barely top 10 at his position yet is demanding top 3 pay.
                Last edited by HDbroncos02; 08-25-2020, 04:45 PM.
                2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
                Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
                  Look Simmons is good is he Great? Not Yet. Can Be Yes. I look as this has to be a Show Me prove to me that you are just as good as a Steve Atwater or Dennis Smith or even T.J. Ward show me 1st that you are then you will get paid it is that simple. If you are just the 5th best in the League and not The Best then you get what you deserve.
                  Those 3 were all big hitting strong safety types. Simmons is a middle of the field, free safety. So I'm not sure those comparisons really fit. Also Atwater was a HOF player, Dennis Smith was a ring of famer. Ward was a good, not great safety who excelled as part of a very talented defensive group. So I'm not sure he fits with those other 2.

                  As for Simmons, we should be hoping that he becomes a truly great safety, and he's trending that way. To me when a younger player is amongst the best in the league already (second team All Pro in 2019) and is trending up, that's when you take the leap and sign them to a contract.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
                    Look Simmons is good is he Great? Not Yet. Can Be Yes. I look as this has to be a Show Me prove to me that you are just as good as a Steve Atwater or Dennis Smith or even T.J. Ward show me 1st that you are then you will get paid it is that simple. If you are just the 5th best in the League and not The Best then you get what you deserve.
                    Good post! Dare I say it but it could also turn out that Simmons is a product of Fangios system.

                    However his leadership qualities set him somewhere in the top 3 in my opinion.

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                    • #70
                      Denver finally has an athletic safety who is also a playmaker. Sign this man to a long term deal, and pay him what he wants.

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                      • #71
                        I think last year was the first year the national media started realizing just how good Justin Simmons truly is. Even though Harris and Talib are CB's I think that attention they got caused most press to overlook Simmons. Budda Baker was very well known out of college and some of his Pro Bowl attention is because of that. I think Simmons is just as good as Budda Baker, though the Cards did overpay him.

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                        • #72
                          Baker was really good last year. Did they overpay? Well, not by much if he keeps playing like he has. I don't think there's a huge gap between Simmons and Baker right now. It's not like I can say, "Well Baker is clearly the better safety, so nobody will pay Simmons that kind of money." He'll at least get close to that. There are 5 guys in the league I would take over Simmons without thinking about it, and two of them signed last year for less than Baker did. I don't think Washington overpaid by much either, because I think Collins would be amazing in the right defense. Chicago apparently got a solid deal too. You think we've got problems, imagine what James, Adams, and Fitzpatrick are going to get.

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                          • #73
                            If Simmons has another good year, I think 15 million a year is going to be the floor of the contract talks.
                            Superbowl 50 Champions!

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                            • #74
                              I would not be surprised if one of the reasons the deal did not get done before the deadline was the uncertainty of the salary cap. It was not until after the deadline they decided to spread the amount the cap will be lowered in 2021 over multiple years.
                              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                              • #75
                                This will be one of the main storylines this year, and I thought it would be a good discussion thread. With Miller now gone, the man who "bet on himself" to earn something in excess of 15 million per year did not have a good start to repeating his 2019 campaign. Simmons looked more like the inconsistent pre-2019 safety against the Titans, and I think we will continue to see him be just good, with a ceiling of great, but not a game-breaker in any capacity.

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