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  • #61
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    I've seen games won at the end by calling time, have seen them lost by calling time, and have seen it make no difference by doing so. Anyone who says that the one thing that lost the game was the way the clock was managed at the end, either didn't watch the whole game, or didn't pay attention or forgot. Tennessee's last drive would be different if all the timeouts had been used. We have no way of knowing in what manner it which would have differed. We also don't know how much time Denver would have had if the TOs had been called. It's possible there would have been no time or about the same with no TOs. Some claim to know exactly how much time Denver would have had. Ridiculous. Even if there had been more time, it might have been after a TD instead of a FG. Even if there had been more time, there is no way of knowing what would have happened. It could have been dropped passes, overthrown passes, fumble or sack. Or Denver could have scored. Key word is if; impossible to know. It's the first game of sixteen. Time to hide the panic buttons. Also time to put away the pitchforks and torches. Calling for the coach to be fired is way premature.
    Just to be sure, I never said he cost us the game. I said he was out to lunch in that final drive. I think that is well recognized in the sporting world. He looked lost, and if in fact he was thinking Gostkowski would miss a chip shot, that would be irresponsible thinking.

    I also have not said to fire him, in case that's anyone's assumption. What I am alleging is that he can not make those errors in future, because time management is key to many wins and losses.

    It's a game of inches sometimes, and seconds as well. We'll never know how much time would have been left on the clock, but I can assure you, if we had even another 20 or more seconds, our chances at kicking a FG were greatly improved. Gaining 35 yards or more is not that hard for some teams, with just under a minute to go, especially in prevent Ds..

    Sure, McManus could miss. But you need to manage the time much better, because wins are hard to get, and games that are on the brink of victory are critical in the final standings.
    Last edited by CanDB; 09-17-2020, 04:55 PM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post
      I guess we Win together and I guess we Lose together.
      Success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.

      I genuinely believe much of the criticism being directed at Vic Fangio for the loss is based on the fact that whilst players make many mistakes during a game, the Head Coach is (in the main) personally responsible for the management of the clock. This and the fact that the clock issue happened right at the end of a tight game, leads people to question the Head Coach directly, rather than the team as a whole, or any specific players.

      This is not necessarily a bad thing. Vic's been around for too long to be affected by the opprobrium directed his way on this matter. Also, it helps to take some off some heat that would otherwise be on some members of his young team.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by CanDB View Post
        Just to be sure, I never said he cost us the game. I said he was out to lunch in that final drive. I think that is well recognized in the sporting world. He looked lost, and if in fact he was thinking Gostkowski would miss a chip shot, that would be irresponsible thinking.

        I also have not said to fire him, in case that's anyone's assumption. What I am alleging is that he can not make those errors in future, because time management is key to many wins and losses.

        It's a game of inches sometimes, and seconds as well. We'll never know how much time would have been left on the clock, but I can assure you, if we had even another 20 or more seconds, our chances at kicking a FG were greatly improved. Gaining 35 yards or more is not that hard for some teams, with just under a minute to go, especially in prevent Ds..

        Sure, McManus could miss. But you need to manage the time much better, because wins are hard to get, and games that are on the brink of victory are critical in the final standings.
        'Splainin'
        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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        • #64
          Originally posted by CanDB View Post
          Just to be sure, I never said he cost us the game. I said he was out to lunch in that final drive. I think that is well recognized in the sporting world. He looked lost, and if in fact he was thinking Gostkowski would miss a chip shot, that would be irresponsible thinking.

          I also have not said to fire him, in case that's anyone's assumption. What I am alleging is that he can not make those errors in future, because time management is key to many wins and losses.

          It's a game of inches sometimes, and seconds as well. We'll never know how much time would have been left on the clock, but I can assure you, if we had even another 20 or more seconds, our chances at kicking a FG were greatly improved. Gaining 35 yards or more is not that hard for some teams, with just under a minute to go, especially in prevent Ds..

          Sure, McManus could miss. But you need to manage the time much better, because wins are hard to get, and games that are on the brink of victory are critical in the final standings.
          It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

          If Fangio uses the timeouts and Tennessee still methodically goes down field, getting first downs and kicks the FG with the same amount of time left, then people are hammering Fangio for not saving timeouts for the offense. Given how the defense was struggling we may have seen Tennessee get first downs and (with Denver out of time outs) taking a knee a couple of times before attempting the FG. And people would complain that they didn't have timeouts to prevent against that.

          The only way people don't complain either way in this situation is if Denver had won the game. But with a loss people were going to hammer Fangio in either situation.

          Also Denver wasn't in a prevent D. I know that the easy thing to say when the other team drives down like that, but sadly they weren't. And given the long extended drives the Titans had throughout the game, that's pretty easy to figure out.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
            It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

            If Fangio uses the timeouts and Tennessee still methodically goes down field, getting first downs and kicks the FG with the same amount of time left, then people are hammering Fangio for not saving timeouts for the offense. Given how the defense was struggling we may have seen Tennessee get first downs and (with Denver out of time outs) taking a knee a couple of times before attempting the FG. And people would complain that they didn't have timeouts to prevent against that.

            The only way people don't complain either way in this situation is if Denver had won the game. But with a loss people were going to hammer Fangio in either situation.

            Also Denver wasn't in a prevent D. I know that the easy thing to say when the other team drives down like that, but sadly they weren't. And given the long extended drives the Titans had throughout the game, that's pretty easy to figure out.
            It may not be a prevent d but a soft zone with very little press coverage mixed in is pretty close. That just seems to be what he likes to call. The defense does a good job in the redzone and it keeps the points low. Unfortunately we don’t have enough athleticism/talent across the board to force turnovers or generate consistent pressure.

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            • #66
              Hey Fangio, take a lesson from Zac Taylor. That’s how you use your timeouts.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
                It may not be a prevent d but a soft zone with very little press coverage mixed in is pretty close. That just seems to be what he likes to call. The defense does a good job in the redzone and it keeps the points low. Unfortunately we don’t have enough athleticism/talent across the board to force turnovers or generate consistent pressure.
                But it was nothing different than they had called all game. As I know you know, A "prevent" defense is allowing the offense to gain small gains while using up time on the clock. You trade 5-10 yards for 15-20 seconds. Denver didn't switch to that, they called the same defense they had all game, and I believe they blitzed Johnson several times on the last drive, a prevent defense generally doesn't blitz or gamble, you rush 3 or 4, and allow small gains while taking away big ones.

                It was not a prevent defense. It wasn't effective either, but it was no different than most of the game, when they consistently were bend but don't break.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                  It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

                  If Fangio uses the timeouts and Tennessee still methodically goes down field, getting first downs and kicks the FG with the same amount of time left, then people are hammering Fangio for not saving timeouts for the offense. Given how the defense was struggling we may have seen Tennessee get first downs and (with Denver out of time outs) taking a knee a couple of times before attempting the FG. And people would complain that they didn't have timeouts to prevent against that.

                  The only way people don't complain either way in this situation is if Denver had won the game. But with a loss people were going to hammer Fangio in either situation.

                  Also Denver wasn't in a prevent D. I know that the easy thing to say when the other team drives down like that, but sadly they weren't. And given the long extended drives the Titans had throughout the game, that's pretty easy to figure out.
                  Butler....tell me though, were you not cringing like I was when you saw the clock disappearing and The Titians getting closer and closer? I would have called a timeout without question. Yes, I know, I am not a coach in The NFL. But that seemed like a no-brainer.

                  What's your goal as a D, to let them kill the clock and simply let them have a chip shot FG... and hope for a block or yet another miss? Or is it to hold them to a FG, and give your O as much time as you can in the process, and go for the win?

                  I find that to be an easy question to answer. And not that it matters, but the sports dudes of the world were all over it. And they were pretty uninform in their assessment. Not much to weigh over. It was poor management. Regardless, were you not cringing? Did you not feel like I did, that we had almost no chance to win the game at that point?

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                    Butler....tell me though, were you not cringing like I was when you saw the clock disappearing and The Titians getting closer and closer? I would have called a timeout without question. Yes, I know, I am not a coach in The NFL. But that seemed like a no-brainer.

                    What's your goal as a D, to let them kill the clock and simply let them have a chip shot FG... and hope for a block or yet another miss? Or is it to hold them to a FG, and give your O as much time as you can in the process, and go for the win?

                    I find that to be an easy question to answer. And not that it matters, but the sports dudes of the world were all over it. And they were pretty uninform in their assessment. Not much to weigh over. It was poor management. Regardless, were you not cringing? Did you not feel like I did, that we had almost no chance to win the game at that point?
                    And if he used the timeout, Tennessee still made the FG and the Broncos O had little time and no timeouts those same "sports dudes" would be equally all over Fangio for using the timeouts and allowing Tennessee the chance to gather themselves.

                    The New England-Seattle Super Bowl, clock winding down, Seattle driving down to the 2 with a chance to take the lead, Belichick doesn't use his timeouts, he allows the clock to run (and giving his offense little time to work with) but Wilson throws a ball without looking and Butler wins the game with an INT. So no one even mentions Belichick not using his timeouts.

                    Outside of Denver winning they were going to hammer Fangio either way.

                    And I'm not giving Fangio a pass by any means, I just believe people are complaining about the wrong thing. Tennessee had 10 drives in that game, and Denver was able to force a 3 and out just 3 times. The number of plays in each of their drives: 6, 9, 3, 5 (TD), 12, 14, 15, 3, 3, 12. So Tennessee had more drives of 12 or more plays than they did 3 and outs. That should be the complaint, the defense was awful and couldn't get itself off the field throughout the game. That falls on Fangio AND the players. That's why they lost the game, not because of timeouts.

                    Focusing on the timeouts and saying that's why the team lost completely ignores the story of the game, and completely lets the players off the hook, when they're at least equally responsible for the loss.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                      Butler....tell me though, were you not cringing like I was when you saw the clock disappearing and The Titians getting closer and closer? I would have called a timeout without question. Yes, I know, I am not a coach in The NFL. But that seemed like a no-brainer.

                      What's your goal as a D, to let them kill the clock and simply let them have a chip shot FG... and hope for a block or yet another miss? Or is it to hold them to a FG, and give your O as much time as you can in the process, and go for the win?

                      I find that to be an easy question to answer. And not that it matters, but the sports dudes of the world were all over it. And they were pretty uninform in their assessment. Not much to weigh over. It was poor management. Regardless, were you not cringing? Did you not feel like I did, that we had almost no chance to win the game at that point?
                      Denver didn't score enough points to withstand a late drive by the Titans (not Titian, Tintoretto or any other Italian artists) D needed a stop and couldn't get it.

                      As previously stated, there is no way to predict the outcome had Denver used the TOs.

                      Like Butler said: damned if you do and damned if you don't.

                      Step away from the panic button regardless of how seductive it is.
                      Last edited by samparnell; 09-18-2020, 09:43 AM. Reason: highlight
                      "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by samparnell View Post
                        Denver didn't score enough points to withstand a late drive by the Titans (not Titian, Tintoretto or any other Italian artists) D needed a stop and couldn't get it.

                        As previously stated, there is no way to predict the outcome had Denver used the TOs.

                        Like Butler said: damned if you do and damned if you don't.

                        Step away from the panic button regardless of how seductive it is.
                        Huh? Who is panicking? I don't really subscribe to the theory you and Butler are offering. Clearly I know little about the game because I'd critique that style of clock management no matter who did it. It's called probabilities in my books. The probability of winning was greatly diminished by leaving almost no time on the clock for your O.

                        Just stating what I believe, and what almost every sports analyst said right after the game. But never mind them, I can not think of a time that I would do it different. It's basic logic...no time, relatively short FG attempt, game over unless an unlikely miss. As folks say, you can't save those time outs for another time.

                        You do know that it's ok to critique our coaches.

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                        • #72
                          The way I see it....we were a mediocre team last year, and many "experts" predict the same this year.

                          Yes, we lost. A non playoff .500ish team lost to team that came within in 1 win of going to the super bowl. the loss, was by 2 points and by a last minute fg. the losing team was also short 4 probowl level players due to injury.

                          There were a lot of reasons we lost. the defense bent...too often. The offense couldnt punch it in from the 1. Clock management questionable at the end of the game.

                          Its not as bad as it might seem. Sure would have liked that W. But as others have noted....i see this year as a growth year. We have a *very* young offense, and team overall. And yet this young, mediocre team dang near beat a legitimate contender...without 4 of our best players. Thats not an excuse...its just the truth.
                          sigpic

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
                            And if he used the timeout, Tennessee still made the FG and the Broncos O had little time and no timeouts those same "sports dudes" would be equally all over Fangio for using the timeouts and allowing Tennessee the chance to gather themselves.

                            The New England-Seattle Super Bowl, clock winding down, Seattle driving down to the 2 with a chance to take the lead, Belichick doesn't use his timeouts, he allows the clock to run (and giving his offense little time to work with) but Wilson throws a ball without looking and Butler wins the game with an INT. So no one even mentions Belichick not using his timeouts.

                            Outside of Denver winning they were going to hammer Fangio either way.

                            And I'm not giving Fangio a pass by any means, I just believe people are complaining about the wrong thing. Tennessee had 10 drives in that game, and Denver was able to force a 3 and out just 3 times. The number of plays in each of their drives: 6, 9, 3, 5 (TD), 12, 14, 15, 3, 3, 12. So Tennessee had more drives of 12 or more plays than they did 3 and outs. That should be the complaint, the defense was awful and couldn't get itself off the field throughout the game. That falls on Fangio AND the players. That's why they lost the game, not because of timeouts.

                            Focusing on the timeouts and saying that's why the team lost completely ignores the story of the game, and completely lets the players off the hook, when they're at least equally responsible for the loss.
                            First, I thought Belichick blew it. He looked like the deer in the headlight but was saved by one of the most confusing play calling in SB history. That's a dead horse beating that does not need more of same.

                            Again, just to be sure, I never said we lost solely because of his poor clock management. But it was a big factor in the end, when the chips were on the table. That's his job to manage. And I have posted this already, for what it's worth, I do have some concerns about this happening again, perhaps in an even bigger game. Maybe I am concerned for nothing.

                            Anyway, there are lots of positives about this youngish team, and I still have long term optimism. And with the exception of more injuries, I still believe we got a chance for the postseason.
                            Last edited by CanDB; 09-17-2020, 10:04 PM.

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                            • #74
                              In case anyone did not see already...

                              https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...loss/42629895/

                              The biggest beef with Broncos fans, none of whom were allowed into the stadium over coronavirus concerns, was Fangio’s head-scratching decision to hold onto his timeouts after the Titans crossed midfield at the two-minute warning while trailing 14-13.

                              Banking on the three-time Super Bowl winner missing a fifth kick, Fangio chose not to ice the kicker or spend his timeouts to save as much time as possible for his young offense to respond.

                              “I didn’t think icing the kicker was worth it because he had been struggling anyway (but) I did miss a timeout there after the second-down play from the 29-yard line,” Fangio acknowledged a day later.

                              When Titans running back Derrick Henry “got 13 yards down to our 16, I should have called timeout there," Fangio said. "That was the one I missed.”

                              Instead, precious seconds ticked away to the amazement and amusement of the Titans.

                              Fangio, a longtime defensive coordinator, wasn’t thinking like a head coach.

                              “It was totally my fault there,” Fangio said Tuesday. “I had too much thought into what I was going to call next on defense. I missed it.”


                              The one thing I will say....I respect him for accepting fault. That is a good thing!

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                              • #75

                                Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

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