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The Broncos Oline - Late 90s

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  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Hadez View Post
    Part of it is having the talent. Part of it is having the coaches who best use the talent.

    One of the biggest evolutions of that team was Alex Gibbs convincing Shanahan how good the team was in running the ball and how to take advantage of it. We went from a team in 96 that would call pass plays in a lot of key situations to a team in 97 that would run the ball on 3rd and 5-6 and convert.

    KC is the platinum standard. Not just because of their Qb but the way they have gathered talent for the offense, design the plays and run the offense on game day. It is helped greatly that for many years they have had the same mind in running the offense so essentially they been building on top of the same mind set year after year. As opposed to some teams who blow things up every year or two and then have a whole new mind set to draft players and develop players around.
    I agree. KC has a solid plan, including the attributes you mention - gather talent and design for them. And they have made it a point to sign the players they believe in, even at a stiff price. Apparently the players are thinking team, even though they are being richly rewarded. I still like the pick at 32, adding an instant talent in the backfield, to maintain their assault of opponents' Ds. Yes, all these salaries may catch up, though other top QBS are getting paid pretty nicely as well, but if you win a couple of SBs, it is worth the ride.

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  • Hadez
    replied
    Part of it is having the talent. Part of it is having the coaches who best use the talent.

    One of the biggest evolutions of that team was Alex Gibbs convincing Shanahan how good the team was in running the ball and how to take advantage of it. We went from a team in 96 that would call pass plays in a lot of key situations to a team in 97 that would run the ball on 3rd and 5-6 and convert.

    KC is the platinum standard. Not just because of their Qb but the way they have gathered talent for the offense, design the plays and run the offense on game day. It is helped greatly that for many years they have had the same mind in running the offense so essentially they been building on top of the same mind set year after year. As opposed to some teams who blow things up every year or two and then have a whole new mind set to draft players and develop players around.
    Last edited by Hadez; 10-03-2020, 07:41 AM.

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  • fraguela09
    replied
    Always build from inside out. Shrewd free agent signings and late round drafting, then complimented with opportune trades.

    Look at impact RT Schwartz has in KC!

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  • rst08tierney
    replied
    success starts in the trenches

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  • CanDB
    replied
    The main reason I posted this thread was that I was reminiscing about the 90s team, and how good I felt every week with that group of Oliners. I was so confident in the team back then, for various reasons for sure, but that Oline was amazing!!

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  • samparnell
    replied
    Alex Gibbs coached a 100% pure zone stepped rushing attack in Denver from 1995 through 2003. I think other teams tried to copy that back then.

    Over time, defenses figured out ways to neutralize the zone series. Gibbs may have contributed to that. He went to Atlanta in 2004 to coach their O-Line. The Falcons came to Denver that year and they held the Broncos to 68 yards rushing on 19 attempts. Jake Plummer threw 55 passes for 499 yards, 4 TDs and 3 picks. Denver lost 28-41. Have suspected that Gibbs helped Atlanta's D figure a way to defend the zone series rushing attack.

    Atlanta defended zone steps using a jam and slide/build a wall technique mirroring the O-Line and put a defender in the cutback lane plus one at ball depth. It's similar to the way 3-3-5/33 Stack plays run D. I had seen the method used by the Falcons that day in Denver several years before at the high school level.

    NFL teams eventually realized that the LOS must sometimes be attacked directly via angle blocking which tries to outnumber the D at POA using down blocks and pullers. It seems that most NFL rushing attacks now are mixtures of zone step and angle blocked plays. Many college O-Linemen come to the NFL from offenses that use no angle blocking.

    There are a lot of different kinds of blocks used in an angle blocked rushing attack (e.g., drive, base, base away, double, down, double down, chip, double down chip, fold, scoop, reach, pull to trap, pull to seal, pull to escort, pull to lead, pull to kickout, influence) and if a rookie O-Lineman hasn't been coached to do them in college, his learning curve will be steep. Seems that it would be easier to teach an angle blocking rookie to zone step, rather than teach a zone step rookie how to angle block at the NFL level. Some O-Line coaches think the most difficult block to master is the down block.

    College zone blocking used in option offenses is somewhat different than that used by most NFL teams in that in college option attacks there is an unblocked defender, the read guy. Some NFL teams like Baltimore and New England are running their QB more, but haven't seen enough to tell exactly how they block it. Then, there was Jeff Driskel last night running PAR (play action run )

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  • orange crush75
    replied
    here's a crazy tid bit. Rivers was pressured an avg 14 times a game with the Chargers . 3 games in with the Colts and been pressured a total of 17 times.

    I'm really hoping we focus on our line this draft.

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  • Butler By'Note
    replied
    Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    And Tennessee lost their big name RT and have drastically improved. Olinemen are about as big of a crap shoot as QB is now. The lack of contact in practice hurts but it only compounds the issue that olinemen are coming into the NFL without ever doing anything that’ll translate. Outside of physical development there is very little difference between HS and college.

    Absolutely. So many NCAA teams have their o-lineman just cut block on every pass attempt. Either take the defender down, or get him to put his hands down so the ball can get through. That's why if I were a GM (and even I'm glad they I'm not ever going to be) I would have a strict rule that I want o-linemen from schools that run pro style offences.

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  • beastlyskronk
    replied
    Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post
    Sadly it's not though. The Texans are giving up pressure on somewhere north of 70% of their pass attempts. Surprisingly Baltimore has also been bad in pass protection.

    It's not like Denver has a great o-line, not even close. But Cincy, Houston and Washington are equally bad. The NFL is in an era of poor o-line play. Personally I blame Jeff Saturday and Robert Kraft (along with their crying hug) for the deal they agreed to in 2011 which severely cutdown on the amount of contact teams could do in both training camp and practice. You don't want to beat your guys up, but o-lines needs contact in order to get better.

    Here are the rankings from Football Outsiders.

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...sive-line/2020
    And Tennessee lost their big name RT and have drastically improved. Olinemen are about as big of a crap shoot as QB is now. The lack of contact in practice hurts but it only compounds the issue that olinemen are coming into the NFL without ever doing anything that’ll translate. Outside of physical development there is very little difference between HS and college.

    Leave a comment:


  • Butler By'Note
    replied
    Originally posted by Axemaster View Post
    I miss the days of having the ball 1st and goal at the one and at least being able to punch it in without trick play pass! One measly year! Pathetic. WEAK! The worst NFL line in the NFL by far!
    Sadly it's not though. The Texans are giving up pressure on somewhere north of 70% of their pass attempts. Surprisingly Baltimore has also been bad in pass protection.

    It's not like Denver has a great o-line, not even close. But Cincy, Houston and Washington are equally bad. The NFL is in an era of poor o-line play. Personally I blame Jeff Saturday and Robert Kraft (along with their crying hug) for the deal they agreed to in 2011 which severely cutdown on the amount of contact teams could do in both training camp and practice. You don't want to beat your guys up, but o-lines needs contact in order to get better.

    Here are the rankings from Football Outsiders.

    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...sive-line/2020

    Leave a comment:


  • Axemaster
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post
    I miss the days of having an awesome O-line that could create easy holes for anyone to run through.

    I feel like the 'magic' of the O-line died once Alex Gibbs left.
    I miss the days of having the ball 1st and goal at the one and at least being able to punch it in without trick play pass! One measly year! Pathetic. WEAK! The worst NFL line in the NFL by far!

    Leave a comment:


  • Butler By'Note
    replied
    I can't post, because he uses salty language, but there are several videos on Youtube with Gibbs talking about the zone plays. I think he only used two, he called them wide zone and tight zone. Which I believe would be stretch and inside zone. I know there are more that have developed like outside zone which is more of an off tackle play.

    Also after watching some of his videos it's easy to see why players and other coaches wouldn't care for him. There's one video where he is just awful talking about his players as he uses cut ups to go over plays.

    EDIT: Whenever I've taught zone plays, I've only ever used two, with 4 possible outcomes between the two. On Inside Zone you're looking play side B to backside A. On Stretch you're looking wide, but as soon as you see a vertical seam, you put your foot in the ground and cut up.
    Last edited by Butler By'Note; 10-01-2020, 04:41 PM.

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  • Butler By'Note
    replied
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    Mike Shanahan's contribution to offensive football was to marry the WCO passing attack to Alex Gibbs' Zone Series rushing attack. Vince Lombardi used zone blocking. He called it zone, area or do-dad blocking. Can't find reference to it before him. He may have invented it. Bill Yeoman incorporated Lombardi's zone blocking concepts into his Veer Offense at the University of Houston. Most subsequent college option attacks use zone blocking.

    Gibbs' Zone Series was either five plays or one play with five possible results. The O-Line he coached at Denver was light, quick and smart. They read the defensive front and blocked them on the move, and the back had to read their blocks. It was a 100% pure zone blocking rushing attack; no angle blocking.

    Mark Schlereth told a story about SB XXXII. OC Gary Kubiak put a new play in for the game, Trap Pass. At the end of the 3rd quarter, having just gone up 24-17 after a Terrell Davis TD, Denver got the ball back at the +22 after Green Bay fumbled the KO. Kubiak called Trap Pass and it was intercepted and returned to Green Bay's -15. After a five play drive, Green Bay tied the game at the beginning of the 4th quarter. Denver went on to win 31-24.

    After the game when the Broncos were getting on the bus, Schlereth said he spoke to Kubiak. He told him that before running Trap Pass, he must run Trap first. Trap is an angle blocked play and Denver didn't use any angle blocking then, so whatever steps they tried to sell Trap didn't work as play action, resulting in the pick. After he had pointed that out, Schlereth said Kubiak walked away muttering to himself.
    It can't be one play, just because the o-line steps are different for each. On inside zone the linemen take a small zone step towards play side, but the focus is more on getting vertical push with the double teams and making the double teams splitting to get the LBs easier. Whereas on stretch the o-linemen (especially on the play side) need to take big zone steps towards the sideline because you're trying to get the defensive line flowing to the sideline opening up seams.

    Also with the RB landmarks and tracks, it would be impossible for it to be one play. With stretch the RB needs to be almost sprinting to his landmark which is 1 yard outside the TE (either real or imaginary), the cutback on that is putting his foot in the ground and getting up the field. With inside zone the RBs landmark is the outside hip on the PS guard, and this is the play where you see the cutbacks that go all the way back through backside A.

    I just can't see any way to marry the various aspects of the plays to have 1 play with 5 different outcomes. Although you can marry them somewhat, in Super Bowl XXXII the Broncos ran a toss play that had inside zone blocking. TD took the toss steps, but after catching the ball he put his foot in the ground and went through the middle of the line. I would almost describe it as a counter play for the zone series because of the way they made it look like a stretch through the RB, but he was really reading and aiming for play side B to backside A.

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  • CanDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Peerless View Post
    I miss the days of having an awesome O-line that could create easy holes for anyone to run through.

    I feel like the 'magic' of the O-line died once Alex Gibbs left.
    It seemed like for a period of years we could put anyone in the backfield and end up with well over 1,000 yards.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    I miss the days of having an awesome O-line that could create easy holes for anyone to run through.

    I feel like the 'magic' of the O-line died once Alex Gibbs left.

    Leave a comment:

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