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  • #31
    Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
    So why wouldn't you want us to do the same thing.
    I'm not going to quit arguing a point because I don't want to be labeled as a "St. Jake Worshipper" or whatever the new term is this week or next week.

    At this point I think MNTMAN is just being stubborn in refusing to say why exactly he has a personal vendetta against Jake.
    I don't see any other "Anti-Jake" posters or whatever you want to call them posting "Negative spin" on Plummer every week no matter what.

    By negative spin of course I mean, for example... "Jake played well, but this, but that, but this, but he played well"
    My favorite was after the 4 TD 0 INT game vs. NE - all MNTMAN could muster was "Jp Played well, missed some throws, but played well"
    yea there is no personal vendetta, naaaaah
    AMEN BROTHA!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
      So why wouldn't you want us to do the same thing.
      I'm not going to quit arguing a point because I don't want to be labeled as a "St. Jake Worshipper" or whatever the new term is this week or next week.

      At this point I think MNTMAN is just being stubborn in refusing to say why exactly he has a personal vendetta against Jake.
      I don't see any other "Anti-Jake" posters or whatever you want to call them posting "Negative spin" on Plummer every week no matter what.

      By negative spin of course I mean, for example... "Jake played well, but this, but that, but this, but he played well"
      My favorite was after the 4 TD 0 INT game vs. NE - all MNTMAN could muster was "Jp Played well, missed some throws, but played well"
      yea there is no personal vendetta, naaaaah
      Perfect example of My point.. thank you.

      So it bothers you that he doesn't PRAISE Jake...right? Why? Why does it matter if Mtn-man doesn't LIKE Jake. What if he just doesn't LIKE Jake, and doesn't WANT to compliment him? Why is it so important for the rest of you to HAVE him compliment Jake? Because you WANT him to? Because you feel Jake deserves it? Is that enough for Mtn-man to give a compliment on something, or someone, he doesn't like?? Not from his point of view.

      Thats EXACTLy My point. Instead of Just letting Mtn-man say his "good game, missed some open passes, but good game (or whatever)"... you guys THEN have to argue and ask WHY he has such a vandetta against Jake, then Ask and argue WHY he can't he give the compliment. What does it matter? Why does it matter to you guys so much that EVERYONE compliment Jake?? If there IS a personal vandetta... so WHAT!?! What does that change in YOUR life? Why does it matter if Jake can't stand him? Does that alter the way you feel about Jake? Does it change on how much fun you are having by watching the Broncos? No??

      THen DON'T give it so much thought and worry, and just let those that have an opposing opinion give it, without "having" to give you some reason as to WHY they have that opinion.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Ravage!!!
        I'm asking this simple question with that comment. I think its great that Jake isn't turning over the ball. His consistant play is definatly keeping the ball out of the other team's hands, and giving us a much more controlled ball game. But, is that the kind of QB you want to brag about, the one that is known for "finally avoiding the misakes?" Personally, I think its great that he's avoiding them, doesn't mean that the tops of my catagories for "great qb's."
        Well... What's his qb rating with his limited amount of throws this year?
        You've got to know when to sack em...

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
          I don't think you guys want to go there, but you brought it up. Let's look at their careers during the first 4 years....

          St. Jake

          52 games / 1699 att - 952 comp (56.0%) / 10997 yards / 54 TD - 80 INTs (.68 to 1 ratio) / 66.2 avg QB rating

          David Carr

          55 games / 1492 att - 862 comp (57.7%) / 9875 yards / 45 TD - 50 INTs (.9 to 1 ratio) / 73.9 avg QB rating

          Carr still hasn't completed his 4th year. If he plays the remaining 6 games, his projected numbers are:

          61 games / 1649 att - 959 comp (58.0%) / 10823 yards / 51 TD - 54 INTs (.94 to 1 ratio) / 75.2 avg QB rating

          Some glaring differences aren't reflected in these numbers.

          St. Jake had 20+ INTs three of his first four years. Carr has never thrown 20+ INTs in a season.

          Including this season, Carr has thrown more TDs than INTs in two of his first four years. St. Jake never threw more TDs than INTs in his first four years.

          David Carr has two seasons with a QB rating of 80% or better (based on projections for this season). St. Jake never topped 75%, and had one season with a 50% (his third season).

          Carr has had a 60% or better competion percentage two of his first four years. St. Jake never had a 60% completion rate in AZ.

          In conclusion, David Carr performed better under his poor surroundings that St. Jake did in his.
          Stats are nice, but it's all about the image baby! YEA!

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ravage!!!
            I don't believe I have complained about Jake. Doesn't mean I make a run on post ranting it. Also doesn't mean I'm going to agree with anyone trying to compare Jake to Elway. I think THAT is just plain ridiculous... and funny. Although I will agree there is nothing to complain about.. I can also ask if there is anything to YELL about, other than the comparison of him "not turning over the ball."

            I'm asking this simple question with that comment. I think its great that Jake isn't turning over the ball. His consistant play is definatly keeping the ball out of the other team's hands, and giving us a much more controlled ball game. But, is that the kind of QB you want to brag about, the one that is known for "finally avoiding the misakes?" Personally, I think its great that he's avoiding them, doesn't mean that the tops of my catagories for "great qb's."

            I have always said.. and did all year pre-season. Jake is NOT an elite QB...he's average.. BUT.. he's good enough to win if we put enough talent around him. He's not the type of QB that can win a game on his own. Thats exactly what we've done. We've given him a Talented running game, and a defense that is solid. Put in a punter that gives us good field position, and we are a different version of last years Steelers...or the Tampa Bay Bucs with Brad Johnson. Is that a bad thing? No. Its not. Brad Johnson won a SUper Bowl by being a very controlled QB that didn't turn the ball over, and let the defense and field position, along with the running, win the ball game. Works for me.
            There are a lot of different arguments involving Jake. I think they blend together too much.

            There is the Jake will or will not ever be John Elway argument. For me, Elway will always be my favorite player of all time, no matter who comes around, but I don't hold that against Jake in the present - I have moved on. I will always have a preference for QB's that remind me of Elway, even if it is in the smallest way. Jake's scrambling ability and being able to throw on the run REMIND me of Elway, that doesn't mean I'm saying he is John Elway.

            Then there is the "Game Manager" argument. This one breaks down into 2 parts.... is he a game manager? and can he be more than that if he needs to be. My opinion is he is usually closer to a "game manager" than a "Do everything myself" QB. But that is just because our team doesn't suck (We all agree this is a good thing) But where I disagree is that I think he can and has proven he can go out and WIN games not just manage them when he has to. In the Patriots game, we won 28-20, and he threw 4 TD's. How on earth did he not win that game for us? Football is a team sport anyway, but by you guys' own definition I think we would all have to agree Jake wasn't a game manager that game.

            Then there is the big picture argument. Which basically will be up in debate until Jake either wins a superbowl or superbowl(s) , or retires. That one is all just your opinion of his talent.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by NASurfer
              Well... What's his qb rating with his limited amount of throws this year?
              I don 't know...but I don't understand the point. I'm sure, being highly controlled, just as Brad Johnson, his QB rating is pretty good. Like I said, I'm not complaining about his job done this season. He's been refined to play a very controlled, protect the ball style of football. Just like Brad Johnson did. I think there are a LOT of similarities between the two philosophies. Run the ball hard, keep control passing game, do NOT turn the ball over (especially with the passes), and control the game with a good running game and good punter... keeping the other team low score with a solid defense.

              Do you not see the similarities in our team to the Tampa Bay Bucs that beat up on the Raiders a few years back? Philosophy wise?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
                So why wouldn't you want us to do the same thing.
                I'm not going to quit arguing a point because I don't want to be labeled as a "St. Jake Worshipper" or whatever the new term is this week or next week.
                Don't worry. That's still the term until I can come up with something better.

                At this point I think MNTMAN is just being stubborn in refusing to say why exactly he has a personal vendetta against Jake.
                I'm not stubborn... I am not!!

                I don't see any other "Anti-Jake" posters or whatever you want to call them posting "Negative spin" on Plummer every week no matter what.

                By negative spin of course I mean, for example... "Jake played well, but this, but that, but this, but he played well"

                My favorite was after the 4 TD 0 INT game vs. NE - all MNTMAN could muster was "Jp Played well, missed some throws, but played well"
                yea there is no personal vendetta, naaaaah
                If by negative spin, you mean that statements are made that offend the St. Jake crowd, I probably am the only one. But if you mean honest, non-biased observations that St. Jake doesn't walk on water, there are others.

                The last time I checked, when someone plays well, that's a good thing. But, since I didn't nominate St. Jake for MVP after one good game, it didn't please you.

                Oh well, get over it.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                  Perfect example of My point.. thank you.

                  So it bothers you that he doesn't PRAISE Jake...right? Why? Why does it matter if Mtn-man doesn't LIKE Jake. What if he just doesn't LIKE Jake, and doesn't WANT to compliment him? Why is it so important for the rest of you to HAVE him compliment Jake? Because you WANT him to? Because you feel Jake deserves it? Is that enough for Mtn-man to give a compliment on something, or someone, he doesn't like?? Not from his point of view.

                  Thats EXACTLy My point. Instead of Just letting Mtn-man say his "good game, missed some open passes, but good game (or whatever)"... you guys THEN have to argue and ask WHY he has such a vandetta against Jake, then Ask and argue WHY he can't he give the compliment. What does it matter? Why does it matter to you guys so much that EVERYONE compliment Jake?? If there IS a personal vandetta... so WHAT!?! What does that change in YOUR life? Why does it matter if Jake can't stand him? Does that alter the way you feel about Jake? Does it change on how much fun you are having by watching the Broncos? No??

                  THen DON'T give it so much thought and worry, and just let those that have an opposing opinion give it, without "having" to give you some reason as to WHY they have that opinion.
                  People can have whatever views they want. But if something about that view doesn't make sense to me, I will question it. If we didn't question other people's opinions we wouldn't have the "reply to thread" option. We would just have a million threads with one post each saying "here is my opinion"
                  For example.... In my opinion, MNTMAN never really wants to give Jake credit. So I ask what would make him give him credit, because I find that interesting, since MNTMAN is a Broncos fan. Why is there a player on his favorite team that he refuses to be a fan of? What will make him be a fan of that player? And if there is nothing that player could ever do, then there has to be another reason, which is where the personal vendetta comes in.

                  Every Jake Plummer related post ends up being Anti-Jake vs. Pro-Jake garbage - what is wrong with trying to end it once and for all with debate.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    All of this debating goes on despite the season not being over. Let's just get real about this argument..... Those who are not believers in Jake have good reason. He HAS NOT WON A PLAYOFF GAME..........YET! Until he can get it done in January/February it will be just like last year, good numbers with nothing to show for them. So let the lovers be lovers and haters be haters. What is each side going to do if we either win big in playoffs or get ousted in grand style? Maybe that should be discussed rather than what has happened before the playoffs even start.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
                      Then there is the big picture argument. Which basically will be up in debate until Jake either wins a superbowl or superbowl(s) , or retires. That one is all just your opinion of his talent.
                      You know. There was a discussion about this during the pre-season. If Jake wins the Super Bowl... will he ever be considered one of the greats??

                      In my opinion, he won't. I'll tell you why. Because I think the coaching of Shanahan will get more credit of the Super Bowl win (this is purely speculation of course) than Jake would get. THats simply because Jake was always a 20+ INT QB for his entire career, even up until last year. Then Shanahan installs the controlled game, traded for Champ, traded for the Browncos, aquired players like Lynch and Dayne and drafted players like Williams, Williams, Wilson, Gold, Foxworth, and whomever else. THEN this would be the year that Jake wins?? Do you think the year where Shanahan is up for Coach of the Year wouldn't seem to have more to do with the Super Bowl win (again, purely speculation for sake of discussion) than the play of Jake?

                      SUrely you can see my point on this. I mean. There are some that actually don't think that Brady is that good, and its PURELY the coaching. SO certainly you can see where people weould see the same thing with Plummer, after being in the league almost a decade with only one playoff win.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by plummer282005
                        I cannot believe I am seeing this. For some reason I keep seeing the same old crap about "Jake Plummer isn't playing great, he just isn't making mistakes". Wow. Explain this. We all agree that turnovers effect game results. Enter Jake Plummer, only 4 interceptions. Lowest total in the league, period. Passer rating, 4th highest in the league. Denver Broncos, 9-2, second best record in the league.
                        What else does he have to do? Pass for 6 more touchdowns so he can match the ominous Peyton Manning? Jake IS playing well this year. At this time last year everyone kept saying that they wish he could have a season like Drew Brees did last year. And surprise, he's having a better one. People still complain. Jake Haters, just admit that you will never be happy no matter what he does. You still miss Elway and you enjoy taking out your subconcious pain on Plummer. Don't get me wrong. I am 28, been watching the Broncos since I was 7. I think Elway was one of the greatest ever. But there is a new star on the horizon. What other stats do you need? Elways records are falling left and right. Looking for individual accomplishments? Here you go; 2004 shattered the Broncos single-season record for passing yards (4,089) and tied Denver’s one-year passing touchdown mark (27), records held by John Elway. He is currently projected to throw only 6 interceptions this year. Elways lowest season total is 10. He also broke the Bronco record for most pass attempts without a interception at 229. If all of you antagonists say that doesn't matter its the total Bronco wins, see how this crow tastes; Jake is 28-10 (73.6%) as a Bronco's starter and entered 2005 with a 19-8 record (70.4%) in two years as the Broncos’ starting quarterback, a winning percentage that was the fourth highest among NFL signal-callers during that period. And please, don't refer to the Superbowl thing as your desperate last resort because he has only been with the Broncos for 2 and a half years. Don't even bother mentioning his previous years as a Cardinal because the guy leads all active quarterbacks with 22 comeback wins so obviously he did his part. Sometime you just have to put down you gloves and aceept the battle-hardened truth. Jake Plummer is having a great year and there is a reason that analysts are mentioning his name amongst MVP candidates. They hated him before just as the rest of you do now. However, if the crooked, flip flop media types can change; what in the world is stopping you?
                        Hmmmm..This paragraph hurt my eyes so much I didn't bother reading it, but let people think what they want to think about Plummer, the only thing that matters is that he is playing steller for us and the best of his career right now!
                        vvvv Palomar-Mnt. Southern California vvvv

                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
                          If by negative spin, you mean that statements are made that offend the St. Jake crowd, I probably am the only one. But if you mean honest, non-biased observations that St. Jake doesn't walk on water, there are others.

                          The last time I checked, when someone plays well, that's a good thing. But, since I didn't nominate St. Jake for MVP after one good game, it didn't please you.

                          Oh well, get over it.
                          Honest non-biased observations? What a joke. Here is an example - Jake throws for like 70% completions, 250 yards, 4 td's and 0 int's against the Pats - and you FOUND things to complain about.

                          Now take the equivalent stats for any other Broncos player - and show me a post where you nitpick at the flaws in THEIR performance.

                          For example, if Mike Anderson carried the ball 20 times for 140 yards and 3 TD's (About the equivalent I guess) you wouldn't be saying anything about "Oh mike anderson could of gotten 7 yards on that one play he got 2, and ge could of got 6 yards on that play where he got 1"

                          My point being, you only nitpick Jake's performance, which is where my "crazy" theory of your personal vendetta comes in.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                            I don 't know...but I don't understand the point. I'm sure, being highly controlled, just as Brad Johnson, his QB rating is pretty good. Like I said, I'm not complaining about his job done this season. He's been refined to play a very controlled, protect the ball style of football. Just like Brad Johnson did. I think there are a LOT of similarities between the two philosophies. Run the ball hard, keep control passing game, do NOT turn the ball over (especially with the passes), and control the game with a good running game and good punter... keeping the other team low score with a solid defense.

                            Do you not see the similarities in our team to the Tampa Bay Bucs that beat up on the Raiders a few years back? Philosophy wise?
                            Well, Shanahan has always been in love with the running game. We have the depth at running back this year, so we have been taking advantage of it. (I don't think the conservative gameplans are there to avoid exposing JP)

                            As far as QB rating, I was trying to point out how efficient the guy has been with every drop back this season. Being interception free isen't the only thing he's doing well.
                            Freestyle
                            Captain
                            Last edited by Freestyle; 11-29-2005, 11:24 PM.
                            You've got to know when to sack em...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
                              People can have whatever views they want. But if something about that view doesn't make sense to me, I will question it. If we didn't question other people's opinions we wouldn't have the "reply to thread" option. We would just have a million threads with one post each saying "here is my opinion"
                              For example.... In my opinion, MNTMAN never really wants to give Jake credit. So I ask what would make him give him credit, because I find that interesting, since MNTMAN is a Broncos fan. Why is there a player on his favorite team that he refuses to be a fan of? What will make him be a fan of that player? And if there is nothing that player could ever do, then there has to be another reason, which is where the personal vendetta comes in.

                              Every Jake Plummer related post ends up being Anti-Jake vs. Pro-Jake garbage - what is wrong with trying to end it once and for all with debate.

                              NOW This I agree with.... IF those same questions haven't been already asked a thousand times, OR if there wasn't 10's of others posting on the same topic (so its not like MTN is the only one to post to). I certainly see and agree with your points made here... but wouldn't you agree that those questions you posed have already been discussed with Mtn many times?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                                NOW This I agree with.... IF those same questions haven't been already asked a thousand times, OR if there wasn't 10's of others posting on the same topic (so its not like MTN is the only one to post to). I certainly see and agree with your points made here... but wouldn't you agree that those questions you posed have already been discussed with Mtn many times?
                                YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!

                                They're just renewed on a weekly basis, usually on Sunday night...

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