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  • #46
    Originally posted by Ravage!!!
    You know. There was a discussion about this during the pre-season. If Jake wins the Super Bowl... will he ever be considered one of the greats??

    In my opinion, he won't. I'll tell you why. Because I think the coaching of Shanahan will get more credit of the Super Bowl win (this is purely speculation of course) than Jake would get. THats simply because Jake was always a 20+ INT QB for his entire career, even up until last year. Then Shanahan installs the controlled game, traded for Champ, traded for the Browncos, aquired players like Lynch and Dayne and drafted players like Williams, Williams, Wilson, Gold, Foxworth, and whomever else. THEN this would be the year that Jake wins?? Do you think the year where Shanahan is up for Coach of the Year wouldn't seem to have more to do with the Super Bowl win (again, purely speculation for sake of discussion) than the play of Jake?

    SUrely you can see my point on this. I mean. There are some that actually don't think that Brady is that good, and its PURELY the coaching. SO certainly you can see where people weould see the same thing with Plummer, after being in the league almost a decade with only one playoff win.
    I totally get that argument and it is a good one. I think if Shanahan gets a few more rings, he will overshadow all his players (except Elway) just because he becomes the big "star" Look at Vince Lombardi. Now granted I wasn't around to see those games, but I know that the Coach gets much more credit for the Great Packers teams than any of the great players they had. There are people that say Elway only won his superbowls because Terrell Davis, but those are nice arguments to have, since you are talking about WHY your team won the superbowl bowl. I hope we win it all and get to have those arguments, it would be a pleasure.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by NASurfer
      Well, Shanahan has always been in love with the running game. We have the depth at running back this year, so we have been taking advantage of it.

      As far as QB rating, I was trying to point out how efficient the guy has been with every drop back this season. Being interception free isen't the only thing he's doing well.
      Well. Then I would have to try and find out what percentage of passes he is hitting at what range. MEANING. I think we can all agree that Jake isn't a very good pocket passer... certainly not as good as he is when he rolls out. I personally feel thats because he's not great at reading the WHOLE field, but when you roll out away from traffic, you only have to read half the field, thus making things easier to see. I think we can also agree that Jake doesn't have the "timing " down on the long balls as much as he did last year. Thats just a timing thing, but it certainly seems to be a lil off this year, in comparisons to last year. So I'm still sure Jake's QB rating is good, but is that because he's hitting the shorter more controlled routes? I truly don't know. But I think we have all seen a much more "controlled" approach to the offense this season.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
        I totally get that argument and it is a good one. I think if Shanahan gets a few more rings, he will overshadow all his players (except Elway) just because he becomes the big "star" Look at Vince Lombardi. Now granted I wasn't around to see those games, but I know that the Coach gets much more credit for the Great Packers teams than any of the great players they had. There are people that say Elway only won his superbowls because Terrell Davis, but those are nice arguments to have, since you are talking about WHY your team won the superbowl bowl. I hope we win it all and get to have those arguments, it would be a pleasure.
        Very Very true. I can agree with THAT!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Ravage!!!
          NOW This I agree with.... IF those same questions haven't been already asked a thousand times, OR if there wasn't 10's of others posting on the same topic (so its not like MTN is the only one to post to). I certainly see and agree with your points made here... but wouldn't you agree that those questions you posed have already been discussed with Mtn many times?
          Well the thing with MNTMAN is just kind of silly at this point.

          I'm not going to go looking through his old posts, but I could of sworn he used to say things in his Anti-Jake arguments about the Stats that are important being (W-L, Completion %, TD:INT ratio) etc. etc. etc.

          Now that all those stats are so good for Jake this year, I think he is changing his tune, so I'm calling him on it. He pretty much spelled it out in when he said something like QB rating doesn't matter, then someone explained which stats go into the QB rating. I think he is just trying to save face at this point. And I don't see why we can't just resolve this whole thing once and for all. These boards are awesome for me because I don't live in Colorado so I don't know any other Broncos fans, but it is lame how all Jake-related threads get back to the same stuff.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Ravage!!!
            Well. Then I would have to try and find out what percentage of passes he is hitting at what range. MEANING. I think we can all agree that Jake isn't a very good pocket passer... certainly not as good as he is when he rolls out. I personally feel thats because he's not great at reading the WHOLE field, but when you roll out away from traffic, you only have to read half the field, thus making things easier to see. I think we can also agree that Jake doesn't have the "timing " down on the long balls as much as he did last year. Thats just a timing thing, but it certainly seems to be a lil off this year, in comparisons to last year. So I'm still sure Jake's QB rating is good, but is that because he's hitting the shorter more controlled routes? I truly don't know. But I think we have all seen a much more "controlled" approach to the offense this season.
            This is all part of (argument # 2) about is Jake a QB manager, can he be more if he has to.

            I think this is a good debate - but all these arguments will always just blend into one if nothing ever gets resolved.

            I'll try to word it as basically as possible here:

            Hey mntman, it seems you rag on Jake no matter what. Is there anything he can do that will make you his fan? If so, what (specifics) If not, why not - what did he ever do to you?

            After all his previous posts, for reasons I have spelled out a million times, I don't see why it isn't a valid question that should get a valid answer.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bronco51
              All of this debating goes on despite the season not being over. Let's just get real about this argument..... Those who are not believers in Jake have good reason. He HAS NOT WON A PLAYOFF GAME..........YET! Until he can get it done in January/February it will be just like last year, good numbers with nothing to show for them. So let the lovers be lovers and haters be haters. What is each side going to do if we either win big in playoffs or get ousted in grand style? Maybe that should be discussed rather than what has happened before the playoffs even start.
              Well Jake did when a playoff game @ Dallas if you want to get technical. But I obviously know what you mean, IN Denver. (I really don't care too much about his career in Arizona, just my point of view though)

              ANd hey mntman, if winning X number of playoff games or X number of superbowls would make you a plummer fan, just say so.
              There's gotta be something he can do.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
                Well the thing with MNTMAN is just kind of silly at this point.

                I'm not going to go looking through his old posts, but I could of sworn he used to say things in his Anti-Jake arguments about the Stats that are important being (W-L, Completion %, TD:INT ratio) etc. etc. etc.

                Now that all those stats are so good for Jake this year, I think he is changing his tune, so I'm calling him on it. He pretty much spelled it out in when he said something like QB rating doesn't matter, then someone explained which stats go into the QB rating. I think he is just trying to save face at this point. And I don't see why we can't just resolve this whole thing once and for all. These boards are awesome for me because I don't live in Colorado so I don't know any other Broncos fans, but it is lame how all Jake-related threads get back to the same stuff.
                I think where the "stats" thing comes into play.. as it does with me... is when someone tries to brag about Jake by using his numbers as being 'better than Elway's." That immediatly brings up a red-flag, because I don't care if Jake throws for TWICE the yardage, Jake will never, never, EVER be considered in the discussions of the best QBs to ever play..... period. SO when some people try to post the stats and try to prove this makes Jake a GREAT QB, that rubs Mtn-man wrong.

                Lets face it. Stats don't prove who is better. If that were the case, Dan Marino would be the greatest QB of all time, hands down. But he's not considered the greatest of all time by everyone. Why? Because we ALLLL know that stats don't tell the whole story. Just as we can't say that "winning the Super Bowl" is the end-all of discussions when talking QBs. THen that would suggest that Trent DIlfer is a better QB than Dan Marino. We all know thats not the case.

                Baseball is a game of individuals, that are grouped together on a team. You can take one individual, and put him on ANY baseball team, and he will immediatly be able to play for them because there is no change in plays, philosophies, or how they run their offense. Stats are EVERYTHING in Baseball, because its basically an individual sport. Thats not the case with QBs or football players. The Team you play for, or how you played on a 'team' makes all the difference in the world.

                Mtn-man isn't going to take "stats" to tell him that Jake is one of the better QBs in the league. Stats may say that... but if you had to pick a QB to win you ONE game... the Super Bowl. WOuld Jake really be in your list of QBs to pick?? If you hade ONE QB to take you through the playoffs, would Jake be your guy? Even if Jake's stats make him "better" than Tom Brady.. who would you rather pick for a playoff win or a BIG game win?

                The other thing that gets Mtn-man MORE going.. is that some just can't give ANY mistakes to Jake. ALLLLLL the INTs last year were someone 'elses' fault. That tends to get those that are a LITTLE skeptical of Jake, to become MORE skeptical of Jake, because some want to make him out to be completely "mistake free" and never at fault for anything. I think that tends to get some people defensive to their point when it seems the other side is OVERLY unreasonable.

                Its like if someone comes up and pushes you. Even if you don't PUSH back, don't you 'lean' into the push to hold your ground against the push? THen, if someone pushes HARDER, you have to push harder. Before you know it, both sides are shoving.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
                  Well the thing with MNTMAN is just kind of silly at this point.

                  I'm not going to go looking through his old posts, but I could of sworn he used to say things in his Anti-Jake arguments about the Stats that are important being (W-L, Completion %, TD:INT ratio) etc. etc. etc.

                  Now that all those stats are so good for Jake this year, I think he is changing his tune, so I'm calling him on it. He pretty much spelled it out in when he said something like QB rating doesn't matter, then someone explained which stats go into the QB rating. I think he is just trying to save face at this point. And I don't see why we can't just resolve this whole thing once and for all. These boards are awesome for me because I don't live in Colorado so I don't know any other Broncos fans, but it is lame how all Jake-related threads get back to the same stuff.
                  You know, Trent Dilfer had one good season. He was the MVP when the Ravens won the Super Bowl. Now he plays average football for the Browns.

                  Did that one year performance make him a great QB? I don't think so, and I don't think most others would think so either.

                  St. Jake is having one of his best seasons. Does this make him a great QB? considering his history, I don't think so.

                  By the way, I fully understand that stats go into QB rating. If you had read my reply to that topic, you would know that I prefer the individual stats that make up the rating, vs the rating itself.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                    I think where the "stats" thing comes into play.. as it does with me... is when someone tries to brag about Jake by using his numbers as being 'better than Elway's." That immediatly brings up a red-flag, because I don't care if Jake throws for TWICE the yardage, Jake will never, never, EVER be considered in the discussions of the best QBs to ever play..... period. SO when some people try to post the stats and try to prove this makes Jake a GREAT QB, that rubs Mtn-man wrong.

                    Lets face it. Stats don't prove who is better. If that were the case, Dan Marino would be the greatest QB of all time, hands down. But he's not considered the greatest of all time by everyone. Why? Because we ALLLL know that stats don't tell the whole story. Just as we can't say that "winning the Super Bowl" is the end-all of discussions when talking QBs. THen that would suggest that Trent DIlfer is a better QB than Dan Marino. We all know thats not the case.

                    Baseball is a game of individuals, that are grouped together on a team. You can take one individual, and put him on ANY baseball team, and he will immediatly be able to play for them because there is no change in plays, philosophies, or how they run their offense. Stats are EVERYTHING in Baseball, because its basically an individual sport. Thats not the case with QBs or football players. The Team you play for, or how you played on a 'team' makes all the difference in the world.

                    Mtn-man isn't going to take "stats" to tell him that Jake is one of the better QBs in the league. Stats may say that... but if you had to pick a QB to win you ONE game... the Super Bowl. WOuld Jake really be in your list of QBs to pick?? If you hade ONE QB to take you through the playoffs, would Jake be your guy? Even if Jake's stats make him "better" than Tom Brady.. who would you rather pick for a playoff win or a BIG game win?

                    The other thing that gets Mtn-man MORE going.. is that some just can't give ANY mistakes to Jake. ALLLLLL the INTs last year were someone 'elses' fault. That tends to get those that are a LITTLE skeptical of Jake, to become MORE skeptical of Jake, because some want to make him out to be completely "mistake free" and never at fault for anything. I think that tends to get some people defensive to their point when it seems the other side is OVERLY unreasonable.

                    Its like if someone comes up and pushes you. Even if you don't PUSH back, don't you 'lean' into the push to hold your ground against the push? THen, if someone pushes HARDER, you have to push harder. Before you know it, both sides are shoving.
                    A few points...
                    Like I was saying - the Elway/Plummer argument is in my opinion, a seperate argument from the "how is Jake playing right now" arguments.
                    I will always have a personal bias towards Elway, because he was basically my idol as a kid, so I completely get your point about Jake could never be better than Elway to you. But that being said, Jake's career isn't over yet, and he could still accomlish amazing things in his career before it is over. Until it is over, the debate about his place in history among other QB's will always have the variable of "What is he going to do still, in the remaining part of his career"

                    As for Pro-Jake people never saying anything bad about him, I agree there are some out there. Trying to make excuses for 20 interceptions is lame, and I never tried. I always said Jake had a pretty good year in 2004, but way too many interceptions. Some may word it "He had a really bad year in 2004, because all the interceptions" It doesn't really matter how you word it, 2004 is DEAD to all of us because the Colts beat us in the playoffs.

                    This year after the Miami game, I said Jake played bad, but I also said the rest of the team played bad - which was thought of as being real Pro-Jake because I didn't put "enough" blame on him.

                    My point is, I can only speak for me, but I am a Jake Plummer fan that knows he isn't perfect, and in analyzing his play, I can admit when he messes up. So just like you guys don't want to be told you HATE jake, I don't want to be told I think he can walk on water and is the best ever, blah blah blah.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                      I think where the "stats" thing comes into play.. as it does with me... is when someone tries to brag about Jake by using his numbers as being 'better than Elway's." That immediatly brings up a red-flag, because I don't care if Jake throws for TWICE the yardage, Jake will never, never, EVER be considered in the discussions of the best QBs to ever play..... period. SO when some people try to post the stats and try to prove this makes Jake a GREAT QB, that rubs Mtn-man wrong.

                      Lets face it. Stats don't prove who is better. If that were the case, Dan Marino would be the greatest QB of all time, hands down. But he's not considered the greatest of all time by everyone. Why? Because we ALLLL know that stats don't tell the whole story. Just as we can't say that "winning the Super Bowl" is the end-all of discussions when talking QBs. THen that would suggest that Trent DIlfer is a better QB than Dan Marino. We all know thats not the case.

                      Baseball is a game of individuals, that are grouped together on a team. You can take one individual, and put him on ANY baseball team, and he will immediatly be able to play for them because there is no change in plays, philosophies, or how they run their offense. Stats are EVERYTHING in Baseball, because its basically an individual sport. Thats not the case with QBs or football players. The Team you play for, or how you played on a 'team' makes all the difference in the world.

                      Mtn-man isn't going to take "stats" to tell him that Jake is one of the better QBs in the league. Stats may say that... but if you had to pick a QB to win you ONE game... the Super Bowl. WOuld Jake really be in your list of QBs to pick?? If you hade ONE QB to take you through the playoffs, would Jake be your guy? Even if Jake's stats make him "better" than Tom Brady.. who would you rather pick for a playoff win or a BIG game win?

                      The other thing that gets Mtn-man MORE going.. is that some just can't give ANY mistakes to Jake. ALLLLLL the INTs last year were someone 'elses' fault. That tends to get those that are a LITTLE skeptical of Jake, to become MORE skeptical of Jake, because some want to make him out to be completely "mistake free" and never at fault for anything. I think that tends to get some people defensive to their point when it seems the other side is OVERLY unreasonable.

                      Its like if someone comes up and pushes you. Even if you don't PUSH back, don't you 'lean' into the push to hold your ground against the push? THen, if someone pushes HARDER, you have to push harder. Before you know it, both sides are shoving.
                      You took the words right out of my mouth, Rav!
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
                        You know, Trent Dilfer had one good season. He was the MVP when the Ravens won the Super Bowl. Now he plays average football for the Browns.

                        Did that one year performance make him a great QB? I don't think so, and I don't think most others would think so either.

                        St. Jake is having one of his best seasons. Does this make him a great QB? considering his history, I don't think so.

                        By the way, I fully understand that stats go into QB rating. If you had read my reply to that topic, you would know that I prefer the individual stats that make up the rating, vs the rating itself.
                        So I guess we will play the guessing game with it again then...

                        I will assume (please correct me if I am wrong here) that if Jake wins a superbowl this year, it means nothing more than what Trent Dilfer did in your opinion.

                        So I guess the question is how many superbowls does Jake have to win for you to call yourself a fan?

                        You are making me feel like a lawyer here, but I just don't see whats wrong with getting specific.

                        By the way - my bad about the QB rating stuff, my overall point is just it seems your opinion of "what jake needs to do" has shifted.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Broncos04Champs
                          Well Jake did when a playoff game @ Dallas if you want to get technical. But I obviously know what you mean, IN Denver. (I really don't care too much about his career in Arizona, just my point of view though)

                          ANd hey mntman, if winning X number of playoff games or X number of superbowls would make you a plummer fan, just say so.
                          There's gotta be something he can do.
                          Since St. Jake doesn't lose playoff games (according to those who make constant excuses for him), he can't win them either.

                          So, your question can't be answered.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
                            Since St. Jake doesn't lose playoff games (according to those who make constant excuses for him), he can't win them either.

                            So, your question can't be answered.
                            Well your confusing my arguments with other peoples, but thats ok. In my opinion, the team obviously gets credit for the win, then the individual credit is up for debate (as in the debate of how much of the colts playoff losses was Jake's fault)

                            I think you are over-generalizing to try and avoid the question.

                            What's the big deal... If he has to win 6 superbowls, just say 6 superbowls.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
                              No, but I'm not surprised that you think so.
                              Well, while you are accusing JR of double-standards, you might think about this.

                              -----

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Thank you guys for the reading. There's a good discussion going on in here. Keep up the good work.
                                Emancipate your mind!
                                The People's Poster

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