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  • Enough of the "managing game" stuff already

    I posted this in the MVP thread, but thought it deserved a thread of its own.

    It seems like a lot of people on this board have bought into the media's anti-plummer attitude, which manifests itself in quotes such as "plummer is managing the game" or "Kubiak has simplified the playbook to keep Jake out of trouble" or "The Broncos running game has allowed the team to not rely on Plummer", etc.

    If you listen to these talking heads, or read some of the posts on this forum, you would think that all Jake did was hand the ball off. I have watched every game, and that is not giving him credit. You don't have a stretch of 227 pass attempts without an interception (one of the longest streaks ever) because your handing the ball off or 'managing the game'.

    Plummer has done whatever it has taken to win the game. Against the Patriots he through the ball deep. To start the game against the Bills he came out throwing. His critics have said he can't throw from the pocket, but he has spent a large portion of this year being a 'drop back passer'.

    Enough is enough with the St. Jake, Jack and other knocks on Plummer. The guy has been one of the better QB's in the league this year, and was pretty damn good last year except for a bad stretch in the middle of the season. Have we forgotten he set the Bronco record for yards in a season and tied the touchdown mark last year.

    Here are some stats I posted in the MVP thread.

    Of the top 20 QB's (based on passer rating), only Brad Johnson has a lower percentage of interceptions to attempts. Also, he is far better than anyone with 400+ pass attempts.

    Brad Johnson........254......1.57%
    Jake Plummer........442......1.58%
    Byron Leftwich......302......1.66%
    Matt Hasselbeck.....441..........2.04%
    Trent Green.........478..........2.09%
    Mark Brunell........429..........2.10%
    Peyton Manning......451..........2.22%
    Steve McNair........476..........2.31%
    Carson Palmer.......501..........2.40%
    Kurt Warner.........375..........2.40%


    Oh, and as to that simplified offense that minimizes mistakes? Plummer has 9 less pass attempts than Manning over 15 games, so I guess Dungy must have simplified their play calling to cut down on Manning's mistakes.

    What about Yards per Completion? Plummer the same production per completion as Brady (best passing offense in NFL) and Manning. Guess the New England coaches simplified things for Brady, too.


    Player..................Yds.....Att.....YPA.....YP C
    Ben Roethlisberger......2250....252.....8.9.....14.0
    Jake Delhomme...........3258....415.....7.9.....13.1
    Trent Green.............3670....478.....7.7.....12.5
    Peyton Manning..........3742....451.....8.3.....12.3
    Tom Brady...............4073....522.....7.8.....12.3
    Jake Plummer............3275....442.....7.4.....12.2
    Byron Leftwich..........2123....302.....7.0.....12.1
    Drew Bledsoe............3397....460.....7.4.....12.0
    Marc Bulger.............2297....287.....8.0.....12.0
    Donovan McNabb..........2507....357.....7.0.....11.9
    Matt Hasselbeck.........3383....441.....7.7.....11.7
    Mark Brunell............2909....429.....6.8.....11.5
    Kurt Warner.............2713....375.....7.2.....11.2
    Drew Brees..............3508....486.....7.2.....11.1
    Carson Palmer...........3782....501.....7.5.....11.1
    The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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  • #2
    Great post, good stats. Thanks.

    Al Davis leads yet another squad to the brink of mediocrity.

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    • #3
      Excellent Post and Thread

      You make some very good points! Although....the naysayers will come in swingin'!

      I predict we will see some folks come on to this thread and post stats that either contradict what you say or will state that their stats mean more than yours. And many of those naysayers are those that say stats don't tell the whole story and that they are just a "snapshot in time."

      Bottom line though, very good points you have made!

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      • #4
        Excellent, I'd give you Cp but alas, I am out for today.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SM19
          I've been a big supporter of Jake Plummer for most of this year, but it's worth noting that yards per completion and total pass attempts are not the best indicators of an offense's complexity. Note that Trent Green, in Kansas City's "just count to five and throw to this spot" offense, is near the top in both categories.
          Agreed.

          I just think the he "manages the game" or "the playbook is dumbed down" is simply Jake bashing for the sake of Jake bashing.

          First, isn't managing the game what every QB is supposed to do? I am not even sure what that means, other than to note that term is popular with the talking heads this year.

          Second, I don't care how simplified an offense is (assuming it has been simplified at all, and if it was that it was because of Jake) not too many QB's in this league have thrown 229 straight passes without an interception (can't remember where he wound up on the list 3rd or 4th?), and there have been some pretty simple offenses over the years.

          I think he has the 3rd or 4th best winning percentage as a starting QB over the last 3 years.

          When Griese was here with his high passing percentage the knock was that he did nothing but dink and dunk passing, that argument can't be made with Plummer. He throws to all parts of the field in the pocket, on the rollouts, play action and straight drops.
          The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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          • #6
            Jake has managed our offense well. And thats saying aLOT. It takes a while to learn our system and he is using it to perfection. Whats great about Jake is he can run EVERY play in our playbook. Only knock on JAke is his arm strength and ability to hit Lelie on deep throws in stride. But other the ball does get their. JAke is the man and deserves props.

            At first i thought comeback of player of the year, but he hasnt came back from anything. He was good las year too.

            So i guess ill settle for SB MVP :homer:

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ludo
              Jake has managed our offense well. And thats saying aLOT. It takes a while to learn our system and he is using it to perfection. Whats great about Jake is he can run EVERY play in our playbook. Only knock on JAke is his arm strength and ability to hit Lelie on deep throws in stride. But other the ball does get their. JAke is the man and deserves props.

              At first i thought comeback of player of the year, but he hasnt came back from anything. He was good las year too.

              So i guess ill settle for SB MVP :homer:
              Nahh, I think Al Wilson or Rod Smith needs to be the SB MVP. They are the captains that have held this team together.

              Yea, we and the media seems to forget that Plummers run with Denver has been pretty darn good. He set the denver season record for yards and touchdowns last year, and unfortunately he did have 20 picks. However, as he said during his streak, not throwing interceptions is a big part luck. there were a lot of tipped balls that fell this year, and there were a LOT of tipped balls that were intercepted last year. I would guess that half of his interceptions came off tipped balls last year. Yes he made some bonehead throws, but what QB in this league hasn't.

              His passer rating during his three years in Denver is around 90 which is nothing to sneeze about. No, it isn't manning territory, but then again there are about 30 other teams that wish they had Manning (I think Cincy thinks they have their own).
              The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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              • #8
                Nice post! It doesnt come as a shock to me the majority of the QB's mentioned with Jake Plummer are in the playoffs. Manning, Brady, Palmer, Big Ben, Byron Leftwich, Matt Hasselback. All managers of the game, all with big name running backs behind them.

                I think it takes a team effort to make a QB look good. After all, if he didnt have an O-line or WR, how/who would he pass to?

                The Broncos have made Jake Plummer thier QB. They WANT him to look good-even great. Now that takes good leadership skills and faith in your QB.

                I like to see that going into the playoffs!
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                • #9
                  Also of note...In the last four games the Broncos have jumped 7 spots in the passing stats, from 21 to 14.

                  http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_3355333

                  The last four weeks also correspond to our running game not being as effecient as it had been earlier in the year, so it seems the Satan Jake doom and gloomers' opinions that Jake benefits from the running game seem to contradict that actual results.


                  PS. As far as "simplified" offenses, some of us remember Bart Starr winning championships with two plays:

                  1) Power sweep right
                  2) Power sweep left

                  Having a complicated offense for the sake of having a complicated offense is one of the dumber opinions I think I've ever heard. The goal is to WIN games, not to require a PHD to call a 3rd and 2 play.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BroncFanIN
                    Nice post! It doesnt come as a shock to me the majority of the QB's mentioned with Jake Plummer are in the playoffs. Manning, Brady, Palmer, Big Ben, Byron Leftwich, Matt Hasselback. All managers of the game, all with big name running backs behind them.

                    I think it takes a team effort to make a QB look good. After all, if he didnt have an O-line or WR, how/who would he pass to?

                    The Broncos have made Jake Plummer thier QB. They WANT him to look good-even great. Now that takes good leadership skills and faith in your QB.

                    I like to see that going into the playoffs!
                    How about another stat. How about first half passing (Broncos have spent at least half of their second halves attempting to run out the clock) stats. Plummer has passer rating of 103.1 in the first half of his games this season that's fifth best in the league, behind Big Ben (113), Palmer (108), Hasselback (103.9) and Brees (103.7).

                    In the first half of games, he has thrown 13 touchdowns and only 3 Interceptions.

                    Not too shabby. In the second half we have far too often moved into a two short runs, third and long situation, which has made Plummer's second half stats a little worse than his first. Plus, the second half at Miami skewed his stats, when we lost three cornerbacks for much of the third quarter and Miami jumped out to a big lead and Plummer threw three ints trying to get the lead back.
                    The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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                    • #11
                      wait....... so you said you posted this before........ but now you must post a thread stating the exact same thing? shush now. noone wants to read your post

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DrunkPanda
                        wait....... so you said you posted this before........ but now you must post a thread stating the exact same thing? shush now. noone wants to read your post
                        here---> have another drink
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                        "You find ways to win and certainly you can find ways to lose...it's not just dumb luck."
                        -Sean Payton

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lvbronx
                          Also of note...In the last four games the Broncos have jumped 7 spots in the passing stats, from 21 to 14.

                          http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_3355333

                          The last four weeks also correspond to our running game not being as effecient as it had been earlier in the year, so it seems the Satan Jake doom and gloomers' opinions that Jake benefits from the running game seem to contradict that actual results.
                          Yep, for whatever reason the Broncos have come out passing in most of the last four or five games, dating back to the Dallas game and as you say their passing stats have jumped up during that time.

                          Some more Plummer stats.

                          Plummer has the third best passer rating in the NFL (98.7) since the sixth game of the season, which trails only Manning (109.1) and Hassleback (98.8) during that time.

                          Plummer has the highest career passer rating (88.3) as a Bronco followed by Griese (84.1) then Elway (79.9).

                          While Plummer threw 90 TDs to 114 INTs in Arizona, he is 60-34 with the Broncos.

                          Third best winning percentage over last three years, trailing only Brady and Manning. (Yes, this is a team thing, not just QB stat, however if you include the games that Plummer missed due to injury year one, team would not be third best).

                          10th best touchdown per pass attempt percentage over last three seasons at 4.7%. Only four QB's have a percentage over 5.0% (Favre, Palmer, Culpepper and manning at 5.1, 5.4, 5.7 and 7.0). So, while he is 10th on the list, his numbers are very comparible to all but the top three, and only Manning is way above the others.

                          The stats can go on and on. During his time in Denver Plummer has been one of the better QB's in the league, and he has raised his game to a whole new level this year. Yes, the left handed interception will live with him forever, but if that had been a completion instead of an interception it would have been on the highlight reels for the next decade.
                          Last edited by tnedator; 12-30-2005, 07:57 PM.
                          The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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                          • #14
                            As Self-appointed President of the St. Jake Organization, I approve this thread.
                            The new website is about as ugly as Paris Hilton. Put the blue back!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RBDynasty
                              As Self-appointed President of the St. Jake Organization, I approve this thread.
                              It is cool, isnt it?
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                              Adopted by: Peanut

                              "You find ways to win and certainly you can find ways to lose...it's not just dumb luck."
                              -Sean Payton

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