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Call on Champ's INT return....

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  • tnedator
    replied
    Originally posted by gobroncsnv
    Thanks, I'll be checking NFL Net in the morning for the replay of that show. Official Review is usually pretty good.

    The angle to look for is from the far side line at about a 45* angle to champs run. It looked like the camera was low, like the cameraman was sitting or kneeling.

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  • gobroncsnv
    replied
    Thanks, I'll be checking NFL Net in the morning for the replay of that show. Official Review is usually pretty good.

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  • tnedator
    replied
    NFL Total Access did a review of the game tonight, showing most of the highlights. They showed a bunch of angles of the Champ INT. The most important was from a handheld camera on the opposite (Pat's sideline) that showed the play from about a 45 degree angle.

    This camera angle showed definitively that the ball went out of bounds, and did not cross the plane of the goal line or ever reach the pylon. The ball went out at least a foot short of the sideline. They will be replaying total access again tonight if anyone has DirecTV and is curious, check it out.

    I was doubting it until I saw that angle, but it is very conclusive that the ball was OB, not a touch back.

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  • Amigo_Bronco
    replied
    Originally posted by lbargers
    Does anyone have any clips of the Bailey fumble from multiple angles? I work as a software engineer some co-workers and myself could plot the angles of trajectory, estimated speed of the tackler and angle in which Bailey fell out of bounds. We can use a transparency overlay to show the actual video with superimposed lines showing the path of the ball, and which planes it crosses. It may take several days but would be a fun project during down time at work.
    That would be great. I don't know whether is helpful but the nfl.com video section, in "week 19" has a video (Patriots-Broncos post-game coverage, part I), the play is around the middle. The problem is, it seems that the video is streaming only.

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  • lbargers
    replied
    Does anyone have any clips of the Bailey fumble from multiple angles? I work as a software engineer some co-workers and myself could plot the angles of trajectory, estimated speed of the tackler and angle in which Bailey fell out of bounds. We can use a transparency overlay to show the actual video with superimposed lines showing the path of the ball, and which planes it crosses. It may take several days but would be a fun project during down time at work.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoManiac_69
    replied
    Originally posted by Duilen
    Why don't they simply use lasers to determine these things?
    Talk about a can of worms!

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  • Duilen
    replied
    Why don't they simply use lasers to determine these things?

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  • twotone
    replied
    Originally posted by PsychoChicken
    I believe that it should have been a touchback. But I can't be positive, so don't flame me. Here's my rationale:

    So here's the situation. Bailey is about 8-12 inches in front of the goal line. The ball is about 18 inches (from my best guess), from the sideline. At the angle he is hit, the ball flies in a forward/left diagonal direction. Considering that the ball was closer to the goal line than the sideline, and that the ball came out at almost a 45 degree angle, I find it hard to believe that the ball did not break the plane of the goal line. So even though the video makes it impossible to see by the naked eye, I think basic geometry provides the answer. Keep in mind, I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, but logic tells me that I'm right. If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be more than happy to flush my theory away.

    I'm kind of all-over-the-place with this explanation but I hope you understand it.

    I think the ball was actually closer to the side line though. Course, I could be wrong seeing as how I haven't seen any of the replays since it happened.

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  • Sburk!
    replied
    There are too many variables to use basic geometry or physics to explain why the ball did not cross the plain. All I know is that Denver won! YEAH BABY.

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  • Cugel
    replied
    This is one reason I hate replay. The refs tend to make calls based on "it was a great play. It looks like he was out of bounds before the end-zone, so it's out on the 1 yard line."

    Then a bunch of physics majors are doing computer simulations to determine ball trajectory? Just let the play stand!

    Same thing with pass-catches. It's all getting too technical and over analyzed with slow-motion replay angles. If it looks like a catch, that should be good enough. If the refs make an obvious blunder, fine, correct it, but stop this endless analyzing. Every-time they reverse a call on some miniscule technicality that nobody could even see without motion capture technology it just burns me up!

    This isn't those old figure skating technicals competitions where the skaters had to make a perfect oval or something and they came out and measured it with a slide rule! If it looks like a catch on the field it should be a catch. When they overanalyze it you get counter-intuitive calls like Polomalu's "non-interception" which everybody in the universe knew perfectly well was an interception! There's nothing worse in football than that phrase "after further review"

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  • PsychoChicken
    replied
    I believe that it should have been a touchback. But I can't be positive, so don't flame me. Here's my rationale:

    So here's the situation. Bailey is about 8-12 inches in front of the goal line. The ball is about 18 inches (from my best guess), from the sideline. At the angle he is hit, the ball flies in a forward/left diagonal direction. Considering that the ball was closer to the goal line than the sideline, and that the ball came out at almost a 45 degree angle, I find it hard to believe that the ball did not break the plane of the goal line. So even though the video makes it impossible to see by the naked eye, I think basic geometry provides the answer. Keep in mind, I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong, but logic tells me that I'm right. If someone can prove me wrong, I'd be more than happy to flush my theory away.

    I'm kind of all-over-the-place with this explanation but I hope you understand it.

    Leave a comment:


  • SM19
    replied
    One thing I know for sure is that, unlike what Phil Simms was saying during the game, it'd be more than just a simple geometry problem to figure out what happened. Watson was moving at a more or less constant rate when he hit Bailey, Bailey was also moving but slowing down... it'd be a mess.

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  • SouthCarolina24
    replied
    I think he went out of bounds, not enough evidence for the refs to overturn.

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  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by Cugel
    Denver was favored in this game by 3 1/2 in the Vegas line. Most sportswriters favored N.E. and Indy because they wanted a rematch of last year's AFC Championship game, to be followed by the "passing of the torch" from Brady to Peyton Manning.

    Having the Steelers upset the mighty Colts and then lose to the Broncos who go on to win the SB makes them all seem like a bunch of idiots. Which they are anyway, but they don't like it when the facts point that out.

    As Dr. Z pointed out, the columnists have been hyping the story of Indy v. N.E., how great the Chicago defense is, and whether Carson Palmer can bring the Bengals into the status of elite teams. That and Tony Dungee were the stories this year. And now all of that crap is worthless.

    Nobody was talking about either Pittsburgh or Denver and now they have to eat their own steaming bile.

    And they don't like it one bit which just makes my day. The worst example of being miffed about the Broncos winning is on ESPN where some idiot wrote an article saying that the Broncos were lucky to win and won't go any further. How he became the only person in the universe who knows the outcome of a game to be played next week is left unstated.

    The Broncos versus the Carolina Panthers is just not a "sexy" storyline enough for these fools. Thus, the complaining.
    The media never harped this hard on Brady's "phantom" fumble four years ago.

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  • plummer4presdnt
    replied
    Originally posted by atomicbloke
    So when I was watching the call on Champ's INT return being reviewed, on whether the ball broke the plane of the pylon and if it should be a touchback... it looked extremely close to me. There was no definite angle to suggest either way. And this is why I guess the official let the call on the field stand.

    Now, I read many expert analysts state that the ball "clearly" crossed the plane of the pylon. I know we have decided to ignore what the stupid media says. But this is not a judgemental thing, not someone's opinion on the Broncos. This is just factual. Surely a sportswriter wouldn't say something factually incorrect.

    Hence, I was wondering if anyone has seen another angle where it shows that the ball did cross the plane of the pylon without any reasonable doubt. I want to know what is the basis for this feeling in the media.

    From what I saw on television replays, Bailey was at the 2 yard line when the ball was knocked loose. And the ball was a foot from the sideline. For the ball to conclusively break the pylon plane, it should have been knocked out in a trajectory almost parallel to the sideline. However, the trajectory seemed to be at a 45 degree angle coming out of Champ's hand.

    Can anyone with a better knowledge of football please provide some insights? What is the "clearly broke the pylon plane" angle that I am missing.
    it was too close to call meaning that there was no conclusive data to switch the call.

    On the other side, with the [email protected] game, jones lost the ball and it clearly was lost prior to passing the goal line and going in for a touchback, and they called that a TD. Its too hard to call, especially when the ball flew out of Champ's hand like a rocket

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