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  • topscribe
    replied
    Bump.

    Okay, now we got some BRONCO theads back here at the top, instead of the Super Bowl threads, all of which should have gone into "Other NFL Teams."

    -----

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  • Superchop7
    replied
    Selling a hood ornament happens about as often as fixing one of your typo's. (They stay with the hood unless it's damaged)

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Superchop7
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

    I'm sure you meant "hear"

    NO, we mainly used him to push the cars around that didn't have rims and tires.
    (also to collect bad debts)
    Well, now, I could get offended because you just corrected my typo.

    Or I could demand a free hood ornament the next time I need one.





    Anyway, thanks. I so edited it.

    -----

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  • Superchop7
    replied
    Originally posted by topscribe
    I here when Warren was in college, he worked for you one summer, crushing cars with his bare hands.

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    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

    I'm sure you meant "hear"

    NO, we mainly used him to push the cars around that didn't have rims and tires.
    (also to collect bad debts)

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    [QUOTE=Superchop7]
    Originally posted by DURANGO BRONCO
    A couple of points should be made:

    Al Wilson quoted that Gerrard Warren created havoc inside and made a huge difference this year.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________

    Al Wilson was quoting me.
    I hear when Warren was in college, he worked for you one summer, crushing cars with his bare hands.

    -----
    Last edited by topscribe; 02-01-2006, 09:11 PM. Reason: spelling

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  • Superchop7
    replied
    [QUOTE=DURANGO BRONCO]A couple of points should be made:

    Al Wilson quoted that Gerrard Warren created havoc inside and made a huge difference this year.
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________

    Al Wilson was quoting me.

    Leave a comment:


  • DURANGO BRONCO
    replied
    A couple of points should be made:

    Al Wilson quoted that Gerrard Warren created havoc inside and made a huge difference this year. Al had a front seat to that show.

    WR - We can not continue to ask Rod Smith to risk his neck across the middle of the field. We have to sign a possession WR, and I do not see one in the draft.
    If we do not sign TO we should pursue Moulds, Jurevicious, Givens, or Wayne. A BIG possession WR will make a huge difference in moving the chains. 2007 will be the year to go after a WR early in the draft due to the strength in numbers that will be available next year.

    This years draft is loaded with quality lineman and we should not miss the chance to upgrade on both sides of the ball. With our first pick we should go after Tamba Hali or Darryl Tapp. They both can get after the QB, and would contribute right away. On the other side of the ball we should grab Daryn Colledge.

    I believe that we might have our future safeties on board. Sam Brandon has a great future, and Brandon Browner was projected to go in the first rd and made some plays in training camp before being injured. If our coaches feel otherwise we can pick up Cedric Griffin who is corner/safety in the 2nd or 3rd rd. If you saw the senior bowl he had a nice pick, and laid some lumber a couple of times.

    In concuslion I think upgrades at WR, and D End will make a huge difference next year.

    Leave a comment:


  • lancane
    replied
    Originally posted by Superchop7
    The Gold/Williams thing is odd, a bit of a head scratcher when you think about it, I would hope that the main motivation was depth in case of injury.

    I think our d-line has some good pieces to build upon, I just hope that Shanny finishes the job in April. (fat chance on that happenning though)
    Well it is simple really, Coyer probably wanted to add another good linebacker but Coyer is not even close to being a great defensive mind. Actually he is truly one of the worst. But when I first coached I was lost and the way I was tought is create your core, keep them steady, build around them and use the rule of six. The rule of six is take your best six athletes or most needed and build around them, your core in general. Anyone can do it, even a fan, though a core would likely be different between each fan or coach even.

    The core as I see it is or was:

    1. Bailey 2. Lynch 3. Wilson 4. Williams 5. Warren and 6. Pryce and now I see it as:
    1. Bailey 2. Lynch 3. Wilson 4. Williams 5. Warren and 6. Gold?

    I do not think any team should have a whole defense mostly built around linebackers, actually it makes the team in whole weak. We need presence on our defensive line, Abraham or a dominant linemen or two from the draft would help and we need a cover safety. But we could have gotten a third round Linebacker to have come in and play where we needed a starter, I just think Gold was a waste of resources. But of course were talking about a Coyer defense. Brown should be part of that core group but with the way Coyer coaches...

    The rule of six also can be applied to any offense:

    1. Smith 2. Lepsis 3. Hamilton 4. Plummer 5. Lelie and 6. Nalen and you add around with the talent available. This is why New England is so good at winning, they take care of business and keep their core as best as possible solid. Denver needs a good draft and F.A. There is a reason why people say the game is one in the trenches, cause it is fact. Look at three of the key players of our core on offense were linemen and defense?
    Last edited by lancane; 02-01-2006, 09:41 AM.

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  • Superchop7
    replied
    Originally posted by lancane
    Well I can easily say that Warren is not spectacular, but he is a force against the run, his job was simple help us close down the line against the run and I tell you what he earned his pay. I have ran a 3-4 and a 4-3 defense, in the 4-3 Warren is exactly what you need, Brown or Pryce need to be on the weak side, this is where Denver's pass rush failed and could have been the best... If we had a fast pass rusher forcing a QB to move the opposite way, he will run into a wall with were the line being held up and pushed back, so if you have two pass rushers on one side with a supporting backfield to help against the run and the other side of the line are solid and close the line it causes a sweep rush this is deadly and is one reason why the older defenses whom used this were so succesful, it shuts it down and causes the QB to move no matter what and can be a major factor. I think that all the Browncos were a good pickup and a genius move by Shanahan. I just do not agree with Ian Gold being picked up, yeah he played great, but Williams could be just as good there and I never heard anyone complain, only the fans or some when they signed Gold back!

    Nice post Top!
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __

    The Gold/Williams thing is odd, a bit of a head scratcher when you think about it, I would hope that the main motivation was depth in case of injury.

    I think our d-line has some good pieces to build upon, I just hope that Shanny finishes the job in April. (fat chance on that happenning though)

    Leave a comment:


  • Peerless
    replied
    Nice thread. I agree with you on the oline. It is in chaos. I hope we can draft somebody good to come in and just become a beast, or have chris myers come on in and play.

    Leave a comment:


  • lancane
    replied
    Nice Top!

    Originally posted by topscribe
    Yes, I read the story, a long time ago when it came out. Do you read where Coyer said he was disappointed? I don't. Can you show me?

    And, yes, the Broncos aggressively pursued Gold and signed him. However, that they did it to replace D.J. is in your words. The Broncos had two excellent linebackers in Wilson and Williams. Unfortunately, most defensive alignments require at least three. Now, if Gold was to replace Williams, it's kind of strange Williams is still playing, isn't it? So far, the only person from whom I have heard the term "bust," regarding Williams, is you.


    No, I will refer to the top five status the Broncos enjoy in rushing defense. If you are so up on Coyer articles, then you have seen that he considers Warren a huge factor in that status.


    YOU do the poll. I exhorted you to document your "facts." Meanwhile, I would love to see what the professional analysts are are NOW saying about the Browncos.

    You must have missed the several times where I commented on the need for a pure pass rusher. That in no way denigrates the quality of the people the Broncos have now. They have very good power players in Brown, Warren, and Pryce. They apparently do not have the speed complement they need for the weakside DE, although I don't know why Engelberger hasn't been given a better shot.

    Regarding fans here, among those with whom I place the highest value are Lancane and Dean, both defensive coaches. Lancane seems to have no problem with the Browncos. I would love to hear from Dean.




    I don't believe we have a bad OL. We did amass the second most rushing yards this last season. However, the DLs and LBs of the Pats and Steelers stuffed the OL, and therefore the running game. A weakness was exposed: Inferior mass on the OL. If we can get a big guy who can also move, what objection would you have to that? BTW, you should know better than anyone else here: Who would be available in that category?


    Now let's not get personal here, MUG. I'll admit the chemistry between you and me has not been the greatest, but I respect your contributions, and I hope you respect mine. Let's just stay off that and on the issues, okay?

    Since this is a "what have you done for me lately" sport (get that, Mtnman?--lately), I agree that Williams needs to improve his game this next year. But then, who doesn't? (Except maybe Rod . . . . his status quo will be A-OK with me. ) But I'm not worried about Wilfork or anybody else. We can't pine over what might have been. We need to go on with what we have. And we have a lot.

    -----
    Well I can easily say that Warren is not spectacular, but he is a force against the run, his job was simple help us close down the line against the run and I tell you what he earned his pay. I have ran a 3-4 and a 4-3 defense, in the 4-3 Warren is exactly what you need, Brown or Pryce need to be on the weak side, this is where Denver's pass rush failed and could have been the best... If we had a fast pass rusher forcing a QB to move the opposite way, he will run into a wall with were the line being held up and pushed back, so if you have two pass rushers on one side with a supporting backfield to help against the run and the other side of the line are solid and close the line it causes a sweep rush this is deadly and is one reason why the older defenses whom used this were so succesful, it shuts it down and causes the QB to move no matter what and can be a major factor. I think that all the Browncos were a good pickup and a genius move by Shanahan. I just do not agree with Ian Gold being picked up, yeah he played great, but Williams could be just as good there and I never heard anyone complain, only the fans or some when they signed Gold back!

    Nice post Top!

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Well . . .

    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    Larry Coyer on Broncomania re DJ Williams: http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=4015

    The team then went out and spent 25 million to replace him with Ian Gold.
    Yes, I read the story, a long time ago when it came out. Do you read where Coyer said he was disappointed? I don't. Can you show me?

    And, yes, the Broncos aggressively pursued Gold and signed him. However, that they did it to replace D.J. is in your words. The Broncos had two excellent linebackers in Wilson and Williams. Unfortunately, most defensive alignments require at least three. Now, if Gold was to replace Williams, it's kind of strange Williams is still playing, isn't it? So far, the only person from whom I have heard the term "bust," regarding Williams, is you.

    Simply compare his statistics this season to every other starting DT in the NFL.
    No, I will refer to the top five status the Broncos enjoy in rushing defense. If you are so up on Coyer articles, then you have seen that he considers Warren a huge factor in that status.

    Make a poll on this site, ask the fans if the Browncos were all they were cracked up to be and if the fans are satisfied with their accomplishments.

    The Browncos themselves are on record as saying they were brought in to create a pass rush and get the team to the Superbowl and they failed.

    The media, throughout the last several playoff games and the season, has made mention after mention after mention of how Larry Coyer must bring heavy blitz packages because the D-line can not pass rush effectively.
    YOU do the poll. I exhorted you to document your "facts." Meanwhile, I would love to see what the professional analysts are are NOW saying about the Browncos.

    You must have missed the several times where I commented on the need for a pure pass rusher. That in no way denigrates the quality of the people the Broncos have now. They have very good power players in Brown, Warren, and Pryce. They apparently do not have the speed complement they need for the weakside DE, although I don't know why Engelberger hasn't been given a better shot.

    Regarding fans here, among those with whom I place the highest value are Lancane and Dean, both defensive coaches. Lancane seems to have no problem with the Browncos. I would love to hear from Dean.

    I really don't see how you are disputing this. You are a good poster, a knowledgable person, but you are either just being ridiculously stubborn or have had the TV and, dare I say commonsense, muted all season.
    Just watch the games again. The interior of our line was dominant and it was made mention of several times throughout the games.
    I don't believe we have a bad OL. We did amass the second most rushing yards this last season. However, the DLs and LBs of the Pats and Steelers stuffed the OL, and therefore the running game. A weakness was exposed: Inferior mass on the OL. If we can get a big guy who can also move, what objection would you have to that? BTW, you should know better than anyone else here: Who would be available in that category?

    I don't really think you should be arguing here. I'm not saying I'm better then you or my opinion is better then yours. I'm just reporting the truth of the matter. This isn't a debate on viewpoints. We can do that in the draft forum or in discussing whether this season was a success, or whether Plummer is a good QB. I lean towards yes on the last two.

    As for the only opinion based in my posts, the production DJ Williams gave us this season is absolutely a bust for a top 20 selection. He's not a "bust" yet, but if he has another poor season next year, then I'm ready to classify him as a total bust and a waste of a pick. Right now, we just messed up severly by passing on Wilfork, that much has been established.
    Now let's not get personal here, MUG. I'll admit the chemistry between you and me has not been the greatest, but I respect your contributions, and I hope you respect mine. Let's just stay off that and on the issues, okay?

    Since this is a "what have you done for me lately" sport (get that, Mtnman?--lately), I agree that Williams needs to improve his game this next year. But then, who doesn't? (Except maybe Rod . . . . his status quo will be A-OK with me. ) But I'm not worried about Wilfork or anybody else. We can't pine over what might have been. We need to go on with what we have. And we have a lot.

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    Leave a comment:


  • dogfish
    replied
    HEY MAT'HIR:

    i'm not looking to join the fray, but i'm curious about a couple of things that you've said about d j williams-- please take a minute and answer a couple of questions for me-- and let's keep it civil, i don't wanna fight, just talk football. . .

    why do you think he's a mike and not a will? correct me if i'm wrong (i don't watch much college ball), but didn't he primarily play will at miami? i thought vilma was their mike. . . i think williams has the physical tools to play all 3 LB spots, but his size and speed combo seem to fit best at will, where he has prototypical speed and quickness, and if anything better than average size. . . do you really think that he's good enough at shedding blockers to play mike full time? i agree that his coverage instincts and technique aren't great, but technique can certainly be improved with proper coaching. . .

    also. . . not sure where you heard shanny criticize him, i can't comment on that without the proper context . . . but how do you classify his rookie season as a bust? by the stats alone he was pretty successful for a 1st year player, regardless of what round he was drafted in-- 114 tackles (81 solo), 2 sacks, 1 int, and 6 passes defensed. i believe he actually led the team in tackles, so it's a little bit of an exaggeration to say that he SUCKED just because he didn't tear it up on the blitz-- when you lead your team in tackles on a top 10 (top 5? can't remember, don't have time to look it up) run defense as a rook, how can you say he sucked?! he finished either second or third in defensive rookie of the year honors (behind vilma, and dunta robinson i think), so obviously the national sports media who votes on these things didn't think that he sucked. . .

    you seem to have some personal animosity towards him. . . i agree that he was disappointing this year, but how can you be so quick to give up on a guy who has all the physical tools and fantastic upside? he's a 2nd year guy playing a new position-- one that doesn't present the same play-making opportunities that the will does, how many sams around the league are known as big time play-makers? too much responsibility between coverage and dealing with the TE in the run game (in base formations, obviously-- i realize that the will has coverage responsibilities, too), but you look at the big time play-makers at OLB-- brooks, spikes, etc.-- they all play will if they're in a 4-3. hell, big al is one of the best all-around mikes in the nfl, and even he doesn't create as many turnovers as i'd like!

    also-- the DTs are fine, but if you're in a giving mood, can you please give me a bada$$ edge rusher?!! PLEASE!!!

    whatdaya think?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mat'hir Uth Gan
    replied
    Originally posted by topscribe
    Actually, I have never read anywhere, at any time where either Shanny or Coyer is disappointed with D.J. Williams. In fact, I have read where Coyer is tickled with Williams' production. I have also read where Shanny and Coyer are both delighted with Warren. Once again, I have read nowhere that either is disappointed in him. (BTW, I really don't appreciate your ascribing my reasons to me, such as what you said about my opinion of Warren. It is better you ask me, rather than tell me what is going on in my own mind.)

    Regarding the Browncos, I have been posting and reading on this site while you have been gone somewhere. I have not seen where "most fans" dislike the Browncos. Yes, there was a big uproar back last spring when they were acquired. But that has not seemed the case as the season has gone on and opposing running backs have repeatedly been stuffed. Regarding the media, most of the analysts I have read have gone so far as to call the acquisition a genius move, after they admitted their mistakes in doubting it. What comic books do you read, anyway?

    Okay, you've provided all these "facts." So where is the documentation? Rather than follow your apparent propensities to provide "facts" without documentation, MUG, why don't you just humor me there? And please don't try to turn that back on me. I provided mostly opinions. You represented your comments as FACTS. So let's see it.

    -----
    No problem. Enjoy.


    RE: Fact #1

    Larry Coyer on Broncomania re DJ Williams:

    http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.ph...4&storyID=4015

    Nick Bitzke; Germantown, Wis.
    Do you expect the same kind of year from D.J. Williams?

    Larry Coyer
    I hope not. He was a rookie. He flashed. There's no question about it. He's incredibly gifted but now it's time for him to become a ballplayer. He needs to develop into a football player and I don't mean that he's not, but he's a long ways from being the type of football player he can be. I don't see a reason why he wouldn't. Sometimes as a rookie things happen fast. He learned on the job so to speak. I hope he improves drastically.
    The team then went out and spent 25 million to replace him with Ian Gold.


    Its safe to say he has not improved "drastically", hell, it's safe to say he's not improved at all.

    Sometimes you have to let statistics speak for themselves, that's why we have a Hall of Fame afterall.



    RE: Fact #2

    Simply compare his statistics this season to every other starting DT in the NFL.


    RE: Fact #3

    Make a poll on this site, ask the fans if the Browncos were all they were cracked up to be and if the fans are satisfied with their accomplishments.

    The Browncos themselves are on record as saying they were brought in to create a pass rush and get the team to the Superbowl and they failed.

    The media, throughout the last several playoff games and the season, has made mention after mention after mention of how Larry Coyer must bring heavy blitz packages because the D-line can not pass rush effectively.

    I really don't see how you are disputing this. You are a good poster, a knowledgable person, but you are either just being ridiculously stubborn or have had the TV and, dare I say commonsense, muted all season.


    RE: Fact #4

    Just watch the games again. The interior of our line was dominant and it was made mention of several times throughout the games.



    I don't really think you should be arguing here. I'm not saying I'm better then you or my opinion is better then yours. I'm just reporting the truth of the matter. This isn't a debate on viewpoints. We can do that in the draft forum or in discussing whether this season was a success, or whether Plummer is a good QB. I lean towards yes on the last two.


    As for the only opinion based in my posts, the production DJ Williams gave us this season is absolutely a bust for a top 20 selection. He's not a "bust" yet, but if he has another poor season next year, then I'm ready to classify him as a total bust and a waste of a pick. Right now, we just messed up severly by passing on Wilfork, that much has been established.

    Leave a comment:


  • topscribe
    replied
    Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
    We are going to play a game called "Facts".

    Fact #1

    DJ Williams was a disappointment at WILL last season, this was cited by Mike Shanahan and Larry Coyer. Then, the team paid 25 million to Ian Gold to replace DJ Williams because he was not the playmaker the team hoped for when drafting him. That would be called supporting evidence along with the verbal response by both coaches that DJ Williams had a poor rookie season at WILL.

    Apparently, you are basing your judgment on his success on pure tackle count. He was a complete failure in blitzing, he never could figure out which lanes to hit. He was a massive disappointment in coverage, he has the speed and size, but he lacks the technique. I'm not really sure why you think he was good last season. The COACHES on our team said he was not and paying 25 million to Ian Gold to replace him SAYS he was not.

    You are 100% completely and utterly just flatout wrong and you have misinformation.

    And as for the "bust" label, are you disputing that a Top 20 draft pick that gets 50 tackles, no sacks, and no ints is not a bust? Those kind of stats are bust stats for a 2nd rounder, let alone a 1st. However, the bust label is an opinion and not a fact. But don't confuse that opinion with the indisputable fact listed above.

    Fact #2

    Gerrard Warren was the LEAST productive STARTING DT in the entire NFL. This is a fact. There was no one statistically whom had as poor a season as Warren as a starting DT in the NFL.

    Was he a clogger? Yes. But then, most teams have a clogger, and those cloggers make tackles, stuffs, deflect passes, and get sacks. Gerrard Warren is not allowed a pass simply because Mike Shanahan said in preseason he thought he might play at a Pro Bowl level. Which is the ONLY reason you are giving it to him. News flash....He did not even come close to approaching Pro Bowl level of play.


    Fact #3

    The media and most fans on this website have said the Browncos were NOT a resounding success. I don't know where you got that. They had undeserved praise around the midpoint of the season, but that quickly faded just like their play.

    I would ask you to show me how they were a success because I can provide evidence simply by comparing their statistics to the rest of the league showing they did not. This was on top of facing the pass more then any other team in the NFL.


    Fact #4

    The problems in the playoffs were against DEs by both of our OTs. The interior of our line was solid. I'm not sure where you are getting your information, but its wrong. We neutralized two of the best NTs in the entire NFL in Wilfork and Hampton, and had success running the ball up the middle against them. That was very impressive work.



    This isn't about my opinion, or some thoughts I have. These are indisputable, accurate facts that you are somehow saying are wrong. I would like you to in detail explain your reasoning, and I will gladly take the time to quote press clippings and link statistical data showing why you are misinformed.
    Actually, I have never read anywhere, at any time where either Shanny or Coyer is disappointed with D.J. Williams. In fact, I have read where Coyer is tickled with Williams' production. I have also read where Shanny and Coyer are both delighted with Warren. Once again, I have read nowhere that either is disappointed in him. (BTW, I really don't appreciate your ascribing my reasons to me, such as what you said about my opinion of Warren. It is better you ask me, rather than tell me what is going on in my own mind.)

    Regarding the Browncos, I have been posting and reading on this site while you have been gone somewhere. I have not seen where "most fans" dislike the Browncos. Yes, there was a big uproar back last spring when they were acquired. But that has not seemed the case as the season has gone on and opposing running backs have repeatedly been stuffed. Regarding the media, most of the analysts I have read have gone so far as to call the acquisition a genius move, after they admitted their mistakes in doubting it. What comic books do you read, anyway?

    Okay, you've provided all these "facts." So where is the documentation? Rather than follow your apparent propensities to provide "facts" without documentation, MUG, why don't you just humor me there? And please don't try to turn that back on me. I provided mostly opinions. You represented your comments as FACTS. So let's see it.

    -----

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