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  • #46
    Is he worth that much...I figured Denver was going to hit the FA market and try and get some big players, doing this just sealed we wont be getting Abraham..and TO..guess all this hype the whole year was about nothing...Goodbye Free Agency...
    vvvv Palomar-Mnt. Southern California vvvv

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
      I don't get it. At all.


      Over the past two seasons, we have let two of the premier pass rushing DEs leave our team because they wanted 5 million per season. Both were young and in their prime.


      We have ranked in the Top 5 against the run for years with such players as Monsanto Pope, Mike Myers, Mario Fatafehi, etc... Players making minimum dollars with the job to clog the middle.


      So we sign Gerrard Warren for 6 million per year to clog the middle, and make him one of the highest paid DTs in the entire world. A guy with motivational problems, a guy that has averaged 16 tackles and 3 sacks the past two seasons, and a guy that many are concerned will "turn it off" when he finally gets his payday (like he did after being drafted #3 overall).

      Well, we are going to find out I suppose.


      In my mind, the math is wrong. You take an average player + above average potential + attitude/motivational problem + poor history/performance in the league and you make that equal "one of hte highest paid DTs in the NFL".


      Didn't we do this with Daryl Gardner?
      __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

      He fits the Bronco's system because he frequently occupies two blockers.

      Thats what they ask for.

      That's what they get.

      Is it worth it ????

      To me, the only way that it is worth it is if they find another guy for the same line that requires two guys to contain him.

      Then it's a numbers game.

      Then it's a problem.

      At least they found a guy they like and are making an attempt to keep him, it beats watching everybody leave town.

      Of course, it would be nice of they drafted d-line so it didn't cost a fortune in the first place.
      Last edited by Superchop7; 03-11-2006, 04:58 PM.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
        I don't get it. At all.


        Over the past two seasons, we have let two of the premier pass rushing DEs leave our team because they wanted 5 million per season. Both were young and in their prime.


        We have ranked in the Top 5 against the run for years with such players as Monsanto Pope, Mike Myers, Mario Fatafehi, etc... Players making minimum dollars with the job to clog the middle.


        So we sign Gerrard Warren for 6 million per year to clog the middle, and make him one of the highest paid DTs in the entire world. A guy with motivational problems, a guy that has averaged 16 tackles and 3 sacks the past two seasons, and a guy that many are concerned will "turn it off" when he finally gets his payday (like he did after being drafted #3 overall).

        Well, we are going to find out I suppose.


        In my mind, the math is wrong. You take an average player + above average potential + attitude/motivational problem + poor history/performance in the league and you make that equal "one of hte highest paid DTs in the NFL".


        Didn't we do this with Daryl Gardner?
        I thought the same as you initially and even posted the same in another thread.

        But, in my initial panic reaction, I forgot the back-weighted nature of such contracts. If the last 2 years of the contract are significantly back-weighted, which is probable, then the deal looks substantially different.

        Warren signs a 6 year deal and gets $10 million signing bonus (reasonable) over that length of time. $1.6 million cap hit.

        That leaves $26 million in salary over 6 years. But if it's say $7 million per year average the last 2 years, which is also not unreasonable to think, then it becomes considerably cheaper. The cap hit is probably more like $4.3 million per year, with the first and second year probably significantly less than that.

        His cap hit this year might be only $3.5-4 million or so, which is certainly less than Hayward got.

        Though I am still miffed that Shanahan got rid of Bert Berry and Hayward and kept Trevor Pryce and signed the Browncos. We wouldn't have needed them had we kept two of the best pass-rushing DEs in the league the last two years. (Berry and Hayward combined for 25 sacks in 2004, the last full season both were healthy. Berry got 6 sacks in 8 games he played this year before injury, which is more than Pryce got in a full season).
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        • #49
          Originally posted by So.CalBRONCOFAN
          Is he worth that much...I figured Denver was going to hit the FA market and try and get some big players, doing this just sealed we wont be getting Abraham..and TO..guess all this hype the whole year was about nothing...Goodbye Free Agency...
          Do you have any numbers yet and how they break down? If you do please share them, otherwise have some faith that Shanahan and Sundquist normally have cap friendly deals and they want free agents more then you do... I am sure once the numbers come out and especially if more players redo their contracts if needed, we are going to get who we need in free agency.

          Besides the Jets pick who they want to trade John Abraham to. Abraham does not get to pick. They will pick the best team for the Jet organization.
          Go Broncos!!! - Hosea 10:12

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          • #50
            So, can someone answer how we are going to keep players like Warren and Champ on the team in a couple of years with all this heavy back loading going on???

            Or is it when the players reach these backloaded contracts we part ways?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan
              I don't get it. At all.


              Over the past two seasons, we have let two of the premier pass rushing DEs leave our team because they wanted 5 million per season. Both were young and in their prime.


              We have ranked in the Top 5 against the run for years with such players as Monsanto Pope, Mike Myers, Mario Fatafehi, etc... Players making minimum dollars with the job to clog the middle.


              So we sign Gerrard Warren for 6 million per year to clog the middle, and make him one of the highest paid DTs in the entire world. A guy with motivational problems, a guy that has averaged 16 tackles and 3 sacks the past two seasons, and a guy that many are concerned will "turn it off" when he finally gets his payday (like he did after being drafted #3 overall).

              Well, we are going to find out I suppose.


              In my mind, the math is wrong. You take an average player + above average potential + attitude/motivational problem + poor history/performance in the league and you make that equal "one of hte highest paid DTs in the NFL".


              Didn't we do this with Daryl Gardner?

              i think shanny is finally starting to listen to you. he has read you rip him apart for continually letting his quality lineman walk, and has now decided to pay premium wages for premium players. i know you dont consider warren premium, but apparently shanny and ted do. i thought you would be happy that they are being proactive and holding on to players rather than rebuilding each offseason .

              but i would bet that when we see how the contract breaks down, there is no intention of warren seeing that full $36m. it will be very heavily back loaded. the point of the big number is to allow for a big signing bonus. if i am not mistaken (and i could be) the signing bonus can only be a certain percentage of the total contract. this contract will have 3 good cap figures, then 3 big cap figures. 3 years from now, when warren has turned 30, the contract will be looked at again.

              i do like the deal. i like that we now have brown and warren signed up for a few years. that is two solid pieces in assembling our defensive line. we have decent depth guys as well with myers, veal, ekuban and engleburger. jackson and gause give us some prospects that have been getting positive reviews.

              now we just need to upgrade our pass rushing end and other starting tackle. whether thats abraham and a draft pick, or two draft picks, it finally looks to me like shanny is looking for long term solutions rather than bandaids.
              "Philosophers have hitherto merely interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it."--Karl Marx


              "And I tell you this, that you must give an account on judgement day of every idle word you speak. The words you say now reflect your fate then; either you will be justified by them or you will be condemned."--Jesus Christ




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              • #52
                Originally posted by watchthemiddle
                So, can someone answer how we are going to keep players like Warren and Champ on the team in a couple of years with all this heavy back loading going on???

                Or is it when the players reach these backloaded contracts we part ways?
                The answer is that the Broncos re-negotiate their contracts and convert a portion of the salary into a signing bonus on the new contract.

                It's a little shell game the NFL plays with contracts. They don't mean what they seem to mean because no contract is guaranteed. Warren and Champ will never see that $10 million salary in year six or something.

                The player benefits, because he can always get injured and lose his salary because it's not guaranteed, but he always keeps the signing bonus (part of the CBA this time is the teams can no longer take back part or all of the signing bonus if a player is cut like Ricky Williams).

                The team benefits because it allows them to pay their players more than the salary cap will allow. Teams like the Redskins are WAY over the cap, like $130 million over. The Broncos are almost $100 million over -- when such shenanigans as back-weighted contracts and signing bonuses are considered.
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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cugel
                  The answer is that the Broncos re-negotiate their contracts and convert a portion of the salary into a signing bonus on the new contract.

                  It's a little shell game the NFL plays with contracts. They don't mean what they seem to mean because no contract is guaranteed. Warren and Champ will never see that $10 million salary in year six or something.

                  The player benefits, because he can always get injured and lose his salary because it's not guaranteed, but he always keeps the signing bonus (part of the CBA this time is the teams can no longer take back part or all of the signing bonus if a player is cut like Ricky Williams).

                  The team benefits because it allows them to pay their players more than the salary cap will allow. Teams like the Redskins are WAY over the cap, like $130 million over. The Broncos are almost $100 million over -- when such shenanigans as back-weighted contracts and signing bonuses are considered.

                  Thanks Cug....I figured it to be something like that...Does the huge signing bonuses figure into the cap or is that just like a "Christmas Bonus"?

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                  • #54
                    u got to remeber that the CAP for next year is suppose to jump from 104 to 109 thats 5mill.. DENVER always does back loaded contracts like CHAMP.. when its all done and said it will count 1.5 mil against the cap this year!!!

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                    • #55
                      I doubt he'll remain a bronco for the entire 6 years. In a few years when he's in the back end loaded part of his contract he will be a salary cap casualty.

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                      • #56
                        That's a complete waste. Expect Warren to improve his tackles. He's gonna go up in his tackles to about 30 I'd say and his sack number will stay the same. Typical Warren!
                        The Browns are gone; I'm not a fan of the Impostors

                        The real Browns are in Baltimore, see?

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by watchthemiddle
                          Thanks Cug....I figured it to be something like that...Does the huge signing bonuses figure into the cap or is that just like a "Christmas Bonus"?
                          All bonuses figure into the cap. But signing bonuses are "pro-rated" over the length of the contract.

                          So, a 5 year contract with a $10 million signing bonus = $2 million per year cap hit.

                          Simple, see? So Warren's $10 signing bonus, equals $1.6 million per year cap hit over 6 years.

                          If the player is cut or retires or is traded, then his remaining cap bonus is accelerated and counts against the cap this year (unless he's cut after June 2, when it's divided between this year and next year).
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                          • #58
                            under the new CBA.. looking for link now i belive that Sign on bounas are not pro rated like before.. it now counts towards cash over cap and is not part of the CAP!!!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Dawgfan
                              That's a complete waste. Expect Warren to improve his tackles. He's gonna go up in his tackles to about 30 I'd say and his sack number will stay the same. Typical Warren!

                              do you still think big ben sucks? just curious.


                              "Philosophers have hitherto merely interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it."--Karl Marx


                              "And I tell you this, that you must give an account on judgement day of every idle word you speak. The words you say now reflect your fate then; either you will be justified by them or you will be condemned."--Jesus Christ




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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by bcbronc
                                i think shanny is finally starting to listen to you. he has read you rip him apart for continually letting his quality lineman walk, and has now decided to pay premium wages for premium players. i know you dont consider warren premium, but apparently shanny and ted do. i thought you would be happy that they are being proactive and holding on to players rather than rebuilding each offseason .

                                but i would bet that when we see how the contract breaks down, there is no intention of warren seeing that full $36m. it will be very heavily back loaded. the point of the big number is to allow for a big signing bonus. if i am not mistaken (and i could be) the signing bonus can only be a certain percentage of the total contract. this contract will have 3 good cap figures, then 3 big cap figures. 3 years from now, when warren has turned 30, the contract will be looked at again.

                                i do like the deal. i like that we now have brown and warren signed up for a few years. that is two solid pieces in assembling our defensive line. we have decent depth guys as well with myers, veal, ekuban and engleburger. jackson and gause give us some prospects that have been getting positive reviews.

                                now we just need to upgrade our pass rushing end and other starting tackle. whether thats abraham and a draft pick, or two draft picks, it finally looks to me like shanny is looking for long term solutions rather than bandaids.

                                Well, I liked the Courtney Brown signing for the most part. This one I think we certainly overpaid to a ridiculous degree. I don't understand the lovefest for the guy. I saw little difference between having a Fatafehi clog two blockers or having a Warren clog two blockers. And the run defense rankings saw little difference as well.

                                The price tag for Fatafehi would be about 5 million per year less though.



                                What I will say about Brown and Warren is that every year they will give us that "X Factor" of hope that this will be the year they live up to all the hoopla and talent. And that's going to be kind of fun to deal with for the next few years. We don't usually get top draft picks, so I suppose waiting to see if Warren or Brown ever develop will suffice.

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