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Poor pass protection, mediocre run blocking

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  • jhns
    replied
    Dumbest thread ever, I mean we really have some people with football knowledge here. The number 2 rush offense always seems to have a crappy o-line? only makes sence to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • keithbishop
    replied
    Originally posted by Archimedes Owl
    I'm not going to be the one to tell you what to believe, but I am going to be the one to tell you that your perceptions aren't even close to being statisti8cally supported.

    And, personally, I consider our line to be as good as any in the business. Sure, we're not as good as the Superbowl lines of the best Broncos teams of all time, but there are not many better lines in the league. It is not difficult to make the case that Denver's line was indeed the best.

    As for when Shanahan stopped running on Pittsburgh, maybe a run here or there would have helped, but when a team is down by so much, it's hard to ask them to run. I mean, that only runs down the clock and makes it tougher to come back.

    And I'd wager that Pittburgh would have continued rushing the passer and ignoring the run even if Denver ran the ball more. They were playing the pass to help them maintain the lead and would probably be willing to let us get an occasional twelve yard run in order to shut down our passing game.

    Don't forget the Pittsburgh's defense was pretty damn good this year. Coming back from the deficit we were in would be tough for any team.
    Denver's OL is annually one of the best in the NFL. No, we will never have another Zimmerman, but Lepsis is under-rated, IMO.....very solid. George Foster needs to show improvement next year, but one way to help him would be to address the line's weak link by replacing Cooper Carlisle as the starter. I don't believe that will happen this year, but he is entering his contract year. Carlisle would make a great backup, but is barely tolerable as a starter, IMO. We were spoiled for several years when Dan Neil was a Bronco. I don't blame Denver's OL any more than I blame any other position for the loss vs. Pittsburgh...... no Bronco had a good game that day.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncosMania80
    replied
    we need a better defense yes I agree...

    Leave a comment:


  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by Archimedes Owl
    I'm not going to be the one to tell you what to believe, but I am going to be the one to tell you that your perceptions aren't even close to being statisti8cally supported.

    And, personally, I consider our line to be as good as any in the business. Sure, we're not as good as the Superbowl lines of the best Broncos teams of all time, but there are not many better lines in the league. It is not difficult to make the case that Denver's line was indeed the best.

    As for when Shanahan stopped running on Pittsburgh, maybe a run here or there would have helped, but when a team is down by so much, it's hard to ask them to run. I mean, that only runs down the clock and makes it tougher to come back.

    And I'd wager that Pittburgh would have continued rushing the passer and ignoring the run even if Denver ran the ball more. They were playing the pass to help them maintain the lead and would probably be willing to let us get an occasional twelve yard run in order to shut down our passing game.

    Don't forget the Pittsburgh's defense was pretty damn good this year. Coming back from the deficit we were in would be tough for any team.
    I understand what you are saying, but to completely abandon the running game for almost a full half is beyond my belief.

    Would it have done the trick? Probably better than what happened, but we will never know will we.

    Could we have perhaps taken back control of the LOS? Perhaps not.

    PIT was IMO a team of destiny, they peaked at the right time had more desire than any of the teams they beat including us.

    But again we will never know will we.

    Leave a comment:


  • tpryce93
    replied
    I think we do need better pass blocking. however I think that we do need to keep Lepsis.

    Leave a comment:


  • Retire #30!!!
    replied
    We are not a drop back passing team, our line is bulit for what we do best we strech the field and try to hit gaps. We do not have a drop back quarterback, Jake is no where close to being a good drop back passer. We would have to restructure our whole line and philosphy to do what some of you are saying. Our line works for us, How do we have a bad o-line and finishes near the top 5 in offense every year.
    We saw what happend when we have a drop back quarterback.

    Leave a comment:


  • rugbythug
    replied
    Zim was great. I would love to have another one of him. But lets rememeber he was there in 97 but 98 was tony jones. That's right the season TD had 2000 yds zim was in oregon cutting trees. We have been very successful for a very long time with our run scheme. Actually that has been one of our biggest problems we were so good so long we forgot what it looks like when you get an elite RB. Roll back your 98 footage and hope one of the elite RB's fall in the draft.

    Leave a comment:


  • smilin'assassin
    replied
    I agree with you about needing better O-line. I know that alex gibbs worked wonders with smaller, quicker linemen, but I think this thinking is dated. I disagree about Lepsis: of course he is no zimmerman, but we could win a superbowl with him at LT. I also like Nalen and Foster, but we need some new guards. We could not run the ball or pass protect at the end of the season. everyone on these forums keeps mentioning the need for a WR, but let's not forget that it all starts with the line. Notice that the two SB teams had Faneca and Hutchinson? we should pick Latui or Jean-Gilles with one number one and finally begin to win some physical battles in the trenches.

    Leave a comment:


  • Archimedes Owl
    replied
    Originally posted by mebcaux
    Hi, everyone!

    Thanks to all of you for your excellent thoughts in response to my post about poor pass protection, etc. I appreciate your welcoming remarks and the expertise and good judgment all your posts reflect. Reasonable men and women can differ on these points. Even those with whom I don't completely agree made some valid points that I need to think about, and may cause me to adjust my thinking.

    I would like to say, however, that my distinct recollection of this season, and each of the last several seasons, is of an offensive line that, on the whole, neither pass protects particularly well, nor blows open gaps in key running situations, anymore. They do fine when the field is stretched and pass coverages necessarily pull people off the line, but more often than not get beaten in critical third down conversion and goal line situations. I say this as someone who admires each one of them as players and men.

    I should not, however, focus solely on the O-Line, which is unfair. We certainly miss the magnificent run blocking of Eddie McCaffrey and Howard Griffith. Losing Jeb Putzier doesn't help, in this, or many other, respects.

    Our short-yardage/gaol-line deficiencies need to be examined and addressed. It's not at all clear that Coach Shanahan, for whom I also have great respect, but who seems to be losing some of his mojo, has any answer to offer other than relying on Jake to channel John Elway's spirit and work miracles of a kind he really is not equipped to perform. Jake is a very good QB, just as Brian Griese is a very good QB. They can get the job done when the running game is hitting on all cylinders, conversions come one after another, and defenses have to leave passing lanes open out of fear of the run. Likewise, when the passing game works well, the running game works better because defenses have to stack the line.

    There's no denying achieving this kind of balance is very difficult. Sure, it's unreasonable to expect the Broncos to easily find another Zimmerman. Sure, Matt Lepsis is a fine lineman. What perplexes me is why other teams have had so much more luck in recent years in establishing the run and in pass protection, while we have not, even though most of them lack anyone approaching Gary Zimmerman's greatness, as well.
    I'm not going to be the one to tell you what to believe, but I am going to be the one to tell you that your perceptions aren't even close to being statisti8cally supported.

    And, personally, I consider our line to be as good as any in the business. Sure, we're not as good as the Superbowl lines of the best Broncos teams of all time, but there are not many better lines in the league. It is not difficult to make the case that Denver's line was indeed the best.

    As for when Shanahan stopped running on Pittsburgh, maybe a run here or there would have helped, but when a team is down by so much, it's hard to ask them to run. I mean, that only runs down the clock and makes it tougher to come back.

    And I'd wager that Pittburgh would have continued rushing the passer and ignoring the run even if Denver ran the ball more. They were playing the pass to help them maintain the lead and would probably be willing to let us get an occasional twelve yard run in order to shut down our passing game.

    Don't forget the Pittsburgh's defense was pretty damn good this year. Coming back from the deficit we were in would be tough for any team.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jrhampton
    replied
    Originally posted by mebcaux
    Hi, everyone!

    Thanks to all of you for your excellent thoughts in response to my post about poor pass protection, etc. I appreciate your welcoming remarks and the expertise and good judgment all your posts reflect. Reasonable men and women can differ on these points. Even those with whom I don't completely agree made some valid points that I need to think about, and may cause me to adjust my thinking.

    I would like to say, however, that my distinct recollection of this season, and each of the last several seasons, is of an offensive line that, on the whole, neither pass protects particularly well, nor blows open gaps in key running situations, anymore. They do fine when the field is stretched and pass coverages necessarily pull people off the line, but more often than not get beaten in critical third down conversion and goal line situations. I say this as someone who admires each one of them as players and men.

    I should not, however, focus solely on the O-Line, which is unfair. We certainly miss the magnificent run blocking of Eddie McCaffrey and Howard Griffith. Losing Jeb Putzier doesn't help, in this, or many other, respects.

    Our short-yardage/gaol-line deficiencies need to be examined and addressed. It's not at all clear that Coach Shanahan, for whom I also have great respect, but who seems to be losing some of his mojo, has any answer to offer other than relying on Jake to channel John Elway's spirit and work miracles of a kind he really is not equipped to perform. Jake is a very good QB, just as Brian Griese is a very good QB. They can get the job done when the running game is hitting on all cylinders, conversions come one after another, and defenses have to leave passing lanes open out of fear of the run. Likewise, when the passing game works well, the running game works better because defenses have to stack the line.

    There's no denying achieving this kind of balance is very difficult. Sure, it's unreasonable to expect the Broncos to easily find another Zimmerman. Sure, Matt Lepsis is a fine lineman. What perplexes me is why other teams have had so much more luck in recent years in establishing the run and in pass protection, while we have not, even though most of them lack anyone approaching Gary Zimmerman's greatness, as well.
    Answer may lie in play selection more than personnel.

    Mikey gets a hair up his butt and tries to force the run issue when he should be making adjustments.

    Or the other extreme during the PIT game the Running game was viable and he dropped it like a hot potato when we were behind.

    Sometimes like in basketball/volleyball you have to call a time out to cool the other hot shooting/hitting team down. Take away the momentum.

    If we would have tried to run it a bit during the last part of the second quarter and during the third perhaps it would have slowed down the rush.

    Last run in the 2nd was at 10:06 to go, not single run in the third quarter and none til 9:03 left in the game. 25 plus minutes NO RUN was attempted.

    That smacks of panic to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • mebcaux
    replied
    Editorial Correction

    [QUOTE=mebcaux] Likewise, when the passing game works well, the running game works better because defenses have to stack the line.

    SORRY! I meant to say: "when the passing game works well, the running game works better because defenses can't stack the line".

    Hold your fire!


    Leave a comment:


  • mebcaux
    replied
    Food for Thought

    Hi, everyone!

    Thanks to all of you for your excellent thoughts in response to my post about poor pass protection, etc. I appreciate your welcoming remarks and the expertise and good judgment all your posts reflect. Reasonable men and women can differ on these points. Even those with whom I don't completely agree made some valid points that I need to think about, and may cause me to adjust my thinking.

    I would like to say, however, that my distinct recollection of this season, and each of the last several seasons, is of an offensive line that, on the whole, neither pass protects particularly well, nor blows open gaps in key running situations, anymore. They do fine when the field is stretched and pass coverages necessarily pull people off the line, but more often than not get beaten in critical third down conversion and goal line situations. I say this as someone who admires each one of them as players and men.

    I should not, however, focus solely on the O-Line, which is unfair. We certainly miss the magnificent run blocking of Eddie McCaffrey and Howard Griffith. Losing Jeb Putzier doesn't help, in this, or many other, respects.

    Our short-yardage/gaol-line deficiencies need to be examined and addressed. It's not at all clear that Coach Shanahan, for whom I also have great respect, but who seems to be losing some of his mojo, has any answer to offer other than relying on Jake to channel John Elway's spirit and work miracles of a kind he really is not equipped to perform. Jake is a very good QB, just as Brian Griese is a very good QB. They can get the job done when the running game is hitting on all cylinders, conversions come one after another, and defenses have to leave passing lanes open out of fear of the run. Likewise, when the passing game works well, the running game works better because defenses have to stack the line.

    There's no denying achieving this kind of balance is very difficult. Sure, it's unreasonable to expect the Broncos to easily find another Zimmerman. Sure, Matt Lepsis is a fine lineman. What perplexes me is why other teams have had so much more luck in recent years in establishing the run and in pass protection, while we have not, even though most of them lack anyone approaching Gary Zimmerman's greatness, as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • JvDub95
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncosRPH
    Yeah--but so far, how have we improved? I don't think that we have regressed except at the TE position and if Duke steps up, we will be fine.
    I know we havn't improved yet, but you know shanahan has somthing up his sleeve.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncosRPH
    replied
    Originally posted by jvw
    wow, the broncos have been better than everyother team in the last decade at running the ball and you say we have bad run blocking I know we don't have the best pass blocking scheme but it is built for a scrambling QB, I don't think we need to change a thing. If we made to the AFC championship game last year, I see no reason why we can't get there again, especially with an improved team
    Yeah--but so far, how have we improved? I don't think that we have regressed except at the TE position and if Duke steps up, we will be fine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Archimedes Owl
    replied
    Originally posted by cinnamunmun
    I agree somewhat with that the Broncos could improve with pass protection when we simply drop back and pass. However, that is the consequence of having smaller lineman, allowing for more speed, thus helping the run and screens.

    Lepsis is not a Zimmerman, but he is far from bad. You know that Abraham guy that a lot of teams want? He was shut down by Lepsis. Lepsis is a very solid tackle who really only had problem with Porter in the playoffs (so did everyone else though).

    Jake scrambling around, buying time, is what he does. Besides, he is much better on the run. and a little off topic: Big Ben is more mobile than u think , he is very good at escaping pressure.

    Welcome to the boards tho!
    Right on with Abraham, but it doesn't end there.

    Do you remember seeing John Abraham, Derrick Burgeous, Jevon Kearse, Osi Umenyiora, or any of the other elite right defensive ends get any pressure on Plummer this year??

    Leave a comment:

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