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An Objective Look at Jake's AFC Championship Game Turnovers

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  • #61
    Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
    OK, I know I said I was done on this thread, but when someone is 100% correct, I have to say something.

    Objective isn't a word I would use to describe this post. It's more like you said....

    "pushing for an excuse OTHER than just what it was..."

    I don't know if you remember the official excuse thread that was done last year, but I used to have one of them in my sig that concerned Jake. It went like this...

    "Mistakes were made... Others will be blamed."

    It doesn't matter what mistakes Jake makes, others will be blamed.
    How many people asides Jake do you blame for the loss? Anyone?

    The point is, we're giving Jake the blame he deserves. His interceptions were bad throws. There could be other things, wrong route, not on the same page, but this objective view that tned made concluded it as a bad throw.

    On the other hand, the fumbles, while Jake should have held on, he couldn't really do anything at all. The first one he had no control over. He was blindsided while trying to escape from someone who was right in front of him as soon as he turns from the play action fake. The offensive line and tight end's job and role in the game is to protect the QB. They didn't do their job a lot of the time, and didn't help Jake. Jake, without time, couldn't do much, but he did make admitted mistakes that people have admitted to. He made bonehead passes for sure.

    It baffles me how one person can receive all the blame in a team game. He would have had time if the line protected him for more than a second. That's a fact. Would he have used that time effectively or would he have thrown another interception? We don't know. He might or might not. But we'll never know because the line did a shoddy protection job. The line, the QB, the receivers, they have to be working together to win. If the line doesn't protect the QB, then that isn't his fault. If he has enough time, he should cover it up. But he had no time.

    Mistakes were made yes, by Jake, by Stephen Alexander, Matt Lepsis, everyone. They all deserve the blame for what they did or did not do. No one person deserves the blame more than another because no person was really out performing everyone else as in, if Jake didn't turn over we still would not have one. Who was really out there doing everything to win? I didn't see anyone who decided to help their team mates. Jake included. He didn't do much, but nobody helped him either. Nobody was on the same page.

    I haven't ever heard you blame anyone else asides Jake for that game. Ever. I'm not saying you don't, but I've never seen you post anything blaming somebody asides from Jake. Jake deserves some blame, but not all the blame.
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    • #62
      Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
      It doesn't matter what mistakes Jake makes, others will be blamed.
      At times, that is true. However the inverse, converse or some other verse that you rely on is:

      "It doesn't matter what mistakes others make, Jake will be blamed."
      The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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      • #63
        Ok, Ravage asked 'how' I came up with my times. So, two things.

        First, the original times I gave were off a little. The reason is, as I mentioned in another post, I just installed the video capture card and editing software Friday night, so yesterday was the first time using it. I mistakenly read a time of 3.06 for instance as 3.06 seconds, where it is really 3 seconds + 6 frames. There are 30 frames to a second, so each fram represents 3.3333 seconds.

        Second, I put together a web page that shows seven frames, complete with time codes, to better understand the key points in the play where the first fumble occurred. This is a simple web page, with fairly small pictures, so it shouldn't be a problem for anyone to load, even on dial up.

        Here is the webpage: http://www.cherokeeflyer.com/afccg/afccgfirstfumble.htm
        The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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        • #64
          Originally posted by broncos_mtnman
          It doesn't matter what mistakes Jake makes, others will be blamed.
          . . . From your side of the fence.

          From mine, it seems it doesn't matter what mistakes others makes, Jake will be blamed.

          -----

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          • #65
            Originally posted by topscribe
            . . . From your side of the fence.

            From mine, it seems it doesn't matter what mistakes others makes, Jake will be blamed.

            -----
            Gee, now there's a surprise....

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            • #66
              Great work T-NED

              Thanks man! Great analysis of the turnovers. I agree that the fumbles were can't be fully attributed to Plummer. The others were not only bad decisions, but off target. The through to Alexander should have been deeper and more to the sideline so that only the receiver could make a play. The toss to Rod had the wrong trajectory (too low) and was at least 2 yards behind Rod. Even if Foote didn't catch it, the trailing corner could have.

              I don't know if it is because he was sick or because he couldn't handle the pressure. No one knows. All I know is that 76,000 fans knew that this Plummer was making too many mistakes for an AFCCG QB and all we had to do was look across the sideline to Ben to get jealous of consistent (less than stellar, but safe) quarterback play.

              We'll have to see how everything plays out in TC, but I'm hoping Plummer improves because of the heat he feels from the rookie because I don't think Shanny will start Cutler without Plummer being injured.

              We haven't seen enough of Plummer to know where he stands, but Cutler looks like he's on a fast track to stardome (too small a sample to know for sure, but my fingers are definitely crossed). This'll be tons of fun to watch!!

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              • #67
                Originally posted by dare2bme
                We haven't seen enough of Plummer to know where he stands, but Cutler looks like he's on a fast track to stardome (too small a sample to know for sure, but my fingers are definitely crossed). This'll be tons of fun to watch!!
                Thanks and I agree about Cutler. I am looking forward to his future as the Broncos QB. I think it will be good.
                The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                  I knew it!! You are related to WIZ!!! *laughs* just kidding, but this is really pushing for an excuse OTHER than just what it was.....
                  You know Ravage, I have come to believe that you must be related to Mtnman. Since you simply see nothing but what you want to see, and are an immovable object, and that isn't meant as a compliment and I am not just kidding.

                  As I was going through the clips of the turnovers, I saw Jake on the sideline sucking oxygen and stopped to listen to the commentator who talked about the fact that Jake had been sick all week and at least insinuated that was why he was gasping on the sideline.

                  I've got an idea. I don't know if you play any sports, maybe jog, play tennis, raquetball, or something. If you do, next time you have a bad cold, why don't you go out and play that sport and see if you do as well as normal.

                  You can take a shot at me for posting that clip, but it is like ignoring the defense (ferguson missing the INT in the endzone that went between his hands or Champ having a sure int hit him in the face mask bounce up and become a ten yard completion for first down or Ben being 6 for 7 on 3rd down conversions in the first half), or ignoring the lack of run game, ignoring the lack of pass blocking.

                  It's ironic. People like you and MTN and a few others, accuse people like me of blaming everyone else other than Jake, when the reality is we put blame on Jake, we simply don't go through life with blinders on and ONLY put blame on Jake when there were clearly other factors in that loss. One factor was the fact Jake was sick all week leading up to the game.
                  Last edited by tnedator; 08-13-2006, 07:43 PM.
                  The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by topscribe
                    I don't believe anyone on the board works as hard as you do to make Jake look bad. I really have to admire you for your persistence, coming back time and time again with old, worn out arguments that long since have been exploded, exposed, debunked, and dispensed with.

                    On another note, I don't know why you are calling JR "WIZ," unless it just sounds sarcastic to you. Oh well, probably no big deal to JR, I guess, since he hasn't said anything.

                    Keep on truckin', VAGE.

                    -----

                    Dale Carnegie once said "a persons name is the sweetest sound to him".

                    I personnaly find it distasteful to to call folks names by being rude.
                    Is this not a violation of the COC?

                    I doubt that JRWIZ has even seen it. I believe I read a post somewhere a few weeks back he has him and a couple of others on ignore.

                    Your comments on him trying to make Jake look bad are insightful.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by dare2bme
                      Thanks man! Great analysis of the turnovers. I agree that the fumbles were can't be fully attributed to Plummer. The others were not only bad decisions, but off target. The through to Alexander should have been deeper and more to the sideline so that only the receiver could make a play. The toss to Rod had the wrong trajectory (too low) and was at least 2 yards behind Rod. Even if Foote didn't catch it, the trailing corner could have.

                      I don't know if it is because he was sick or because he couldn't handle the pressure. No one knows. All I know is that 76,000 fans knew that this Plummer was making too many mistakes for an AFCCG QB and all we had to do was look across the sideline to Ben to get jealous of consistent (less than stellar, but safe) quarterback play.

                      We'll have to see how everything plays out in TC, but I'm hoping Plummer improves because of the heat he feels from the rookie because I don't think Shanny will start Cutler without Plummer being injured.

                      We haven't seen enough of Plummer to know where he stands, but Cutler looks like he's on a fast track to stardome (too small a sample to know for sure, but my fingers are definitely crossed). This'll be tons of fun to watch!!

                      I think I saw a quote that both the DEN offense and the DET defense were plain vanilla. So while he might have looked good "fast track to stardom" might just be a tad premature.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by tnedator
                        You know Ravage, I have come to believe that you must be related to Mtnman. Since you simply see nothing but what you want to see, and are an immovable object, and that isn't meant as a compliment and I am not just kidding.

                        As I was going through the clips of the turnovers, I saw Jake on the sideline sucking oxygen and stopped to listen to the commentator who talked about the fact that Jake had been sick all week and at least insinuated that was why he was gasping on the sideline.

                        I've got an idea. I don't know if you play any sports, maybe jog, play tennis, raquetball, or something. If you do, next time you have a bad cold, why don't you go out and play that sport and see if you do as well as normal.

                        You can take a shot at me for posting that clip, but it is like ignoring the defense (ferguson missing the INT in the endzone that went between his hands or Champ having a sure int hit him in the face mask bounce up and become a ten yard completion for first down or Ben being 6 for 7 on 3rd down conversions in the first half), or ignoring the lack of run game, ignoring the lack of pass blocking.

                        It's ironic. People like you and MTN and a few others, accuse people like me of blaming everyone else other than Jake, when the reality is we put blame on Jake, we simply don't go through life with blinders on and ONLY put blame on Jake when there were clearly other factors in that loss. One factor was the fact Jake was sick all week leading up to the game.
                        I suspect if mtntman stops fast, ravage.... well you all know where this goes.

                        I do have to state an old quote "there is no excuse for failure only reasons".

                        In the haters line of sight they cannot grasp this simple concept. They are so blinded by their total and irrational Hate for Jake.

                        Good post as usual.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by wimpy
                          Dale Carnegie once said "a persons name is the sweetest sound to him".

                          I personnaly find it distasteful to to call folks names by being rude.
                          Is this not a violation of the COC?

                          I doubt that JRWIZ has even seen it. I believe I read a post somewhere a few weeks back he has him and a couple of others on ignore.

                          Your comments on him trying to make Jake look bad are insightful.
                          When did you go through the class.


                          Truer words were never spoken.

                          Came to the conclusion that they have not had a new comment to be made for months same stuff different day. No longer gonna waste my time reading their ....!

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                          • #73
                            I actually felt pretty good about Jake's performance compared with the rest of the team for reasons I explained. The OL and RB and WRs and DL and LBs all played BAD football. Period.

                            Of all the turnovers I would say the the 3rd one was really BAD (capital letters). On that interception attempt to Rod Smith he had another WR open and he had time to throw. At that point it's clearly Jake trying to force the play downfield. That one play more than anything is probably why Cutler is on the team today.

                            The 1st and 4th turnover (fumbles) Jake had zero chance. On 4th and 10 with the team down by 2 TDs late in the game it really doesn't matter whether he's sacked or not. He holds the ball as long as he can to try and make the 1st down. Either he succeeds and the drive stays alive or he fails. If he fumbles it's no big deal because the ball is turned over on downs. So there's no downside to taking chances. It just didn't work out.

                            On the 2nd (int) turnover he was pressured and there was nobody open, but he should have thrown it away. I had a bad feeling right before that play that something might happen and it did. Steven Alexander isn't much of a pass-catcher, which is why Tony Sheffler is a Bronco. Alexander had a horrible day blocking as well and was more than anyone responsible for the 1st fumble.

                            So, all in all Jake really didn't respond well under pressure, but he also didn't have a lot of help. More than anything it reminded me of that horrible day in the SB against the '49ers when Elway had a bad day. I remember the 1st play he threw it about 5 yards short of the WR. It looked like he was trying to throw it through a wall. You could just tell that he was wound tighter than an alarm clock, knowing that it was all on his shoulders to MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.

                            As the game went on, Plummer got that same look. This team was supposed to be a strong supporting cast so Plummer wouldn't have to do it all, but he was basically alone out there with nobody helping out.
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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Cugel
                              I actually felt pretty good about Jake's performance compared with the rest of the team for reasons I explained. The OL and RB and WRs and DL and LBs all played BAD football. Period.

                              Of all the turnovers I would say the the 3rd one was really BAD (capital letters). On that interception attempt to Rod Smith he had another WR open and he had time to throw. At that point it's clearly Jake trying to force the play downfield. That one play more than anything is probably why Cutler is on the team today.

                              The 1st and 4th turnover (fumbles) Jake had zero chance. On 4th and 10 with the team down by 2 TDs late in the game it really doesn't matter whether he's sacked or not. He holds the ball as long as he can to try and make the 1st down. Either he succeeds and the drive stays alive or he fails. If he fumbles it's no big deal because the ball is turned over on downs. So there's no downside to taking chances. It just didn't work out.

                              On the 2nd (int) turnover he was pressured and there was nobody open, but he should have thrown it away. I had a bad feeling right before that play that something might happen and it did. Steven Alexander isn't much of a pass-catcher, which is why Tony Sheffler is a Bronco. Alexander had a horrible day blocking as well and was more than anyone responsible for the 1st fumble.

                              So, all in all Jake really didn't respond well under pressure, but he also didn't have a lot of help. More than anything it reminded me of that horrible day in the SB against the '49ers when Elway had a bad day. I remember the 1st play he threw it about 5 yards short of the WR. It looked like he was trying to throw it through a wall. You could just tell that he was wound tighter than an alarm clock, knowing that it was all on his shoulders to MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.

                              As the game went on, Plummer got that same look. This team was supposed to be a strong supporting cast so Plummer wouldn't have to do it all, but he was basically alone out there with nobody helping out.

                              Outstanding post as usual.

                              I'm out of CP so will have to owe you.

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