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  • #31
    Originally posted by tnedator
    Time will tell.

    If healthy, Walker is better than Lelie.

    Based on preseason, Kircus is more reliable as a 3rd WR (which is a guy you want to catch the ball and help convert 3rd downs) then Watts.

    Marshall is still an unkown, but looked good in training camp and the first pre-season game.

    Nate Jackson is finally healthy, and has been lining up wide much of the preseason.

    Scheffler has been playing in the slot and doing well.

    So, last year we had basically Smith and Lelie, Plus Adams/Devoe - Putz and this is what the team managed:
    Now, this year, we have Smith and Walker, Plus Kircus/Marshall/Adams/Devoe - Scheff/Jackson.

    That looks like a big upgrade to me.

    We still have our number one receiver, and Walker shoudl easialy be able to match Lelie's production, plus is better on the slants and other over the middle stuff.

    Scheffler and Jackson should combine for significantly more catches than Putz, and Adams/Devoe/Alexander are still on the team, but we have the addition of Kircus.

    More importantly, if we want, we can run 4 or 5 wide from the first game of the season (even if Marshall is not ready to go). Day one we can throw Smith, Walker, Scheff, Kircus and Devoe/Jackson/Adams out in a 5 wide formation, which wasn't much of an option last year.

    There has been a significant upgrade in both WR and TE this year, which was desperately needed.
    Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

    Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #4th or 5th WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

    Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

    The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

    Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

    It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!

    Frankly, the team could really use Lelie right aboutnow as #3 WR. THAT would have been great. But, he threw a fit and demanded a trade. Now that NEITHER Terrell or Watts was able to prove anything, they are seriously lacking in a #3 WR.
    Last edited by Cugel; 09-02-2006, 11:22 PM.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Cugel
      Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

      Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #3 WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

      Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

      The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

      Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

      It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!
      Most #3's don't really put fear into defenses anyway. Time will tell if the decision was a right one. You have a right to have questions as Watts's release certainly leaves us with a few.

      I'm not saying your wrong or right, but I'd like to see how it all turns out and how we do on the field based on this decision.

      Marshall could turn out good as you said, Kircus could do well and Devoe could do decent with a year of learning the system and the division.

      Devoe didn't really suck it up last year, he did well when he got the ball usually.

      Overall, I don't see how we could be worse than last year. Even if unproven, I believe any of these guys we have is an improvement over Adams at the slot. At the very least we will be just the same there for now.
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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cugel
        Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

        Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #3 WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

        Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

        The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

        Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

        It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!
        Watts was one of only two draft pick at the position that proved he could play.....He has problems with his hands, sure. If I was Shanahan, I would let him try and play through it. Because Shanahan's record with drafting WR's is pathetic. This guy was as close as it get's to being successful, along with Lelie.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Cugel
          Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

          Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #3 WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.
          I never said anything about Devoe lining up as the 3rd, I said 5th.

          Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.
          No, 'reliable' didn't mean special teams, it meant they catch the ball, something that Watts couldn't do consistantly in Denver. I am not sure if you watched many games in '04, but Watts dropped quite a few KEY 3rd downs that were square in his hands.

          The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.
          Considering someone better than Watts and special, are two different things.

          My post stated WHY we are deeper and better at WR than last year. It doesn't imply that our 4th and 5th WR will be better or worse than Miami's, Oaklands, Pitt's or anyone elses, only that they will be better than last year's Denver squad.

          In Addition, I pointed out that we now of the option to go 5 wide with decent talent, something we could not do last year. Nate Jackson, who is not knew, but finally healthy is an example of the added depth that we didn't have last year.

          Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.
          Correction, Brandon Marshall has the potential, three years ago, Watts was in the same position. Watts had two full season and a third training camp/preseason to realize his potential and was unable to do so in Denver.

          It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!
          The NFL is littered with 'failures' and surprise successes. News flash, that big FAILURE has more wins during his reign in Denver than any other head coach in the league, and during that same time Denver has the most wins of any team.

          That failure went to the AFFCG last year, and his team has 33 wins, only bettered by Indy and NE who have 38 each.

          So, while Watts not panning out might be an indication of A failure of Shanahan's in the pick, I wouldn't be so quick to point out what "winning teams" do, since Shanahan has set the standard in that regard while head coach of the Broncos.
          The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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          • #35
            Originally posted by tnedator
            I agree. HOwever, I think we will be at least as deep at wide receiver this year as last, even if Marshall doesn't pan out and Walker's knee isn't healthy. However, we are going to have to get at least a few games, or more, into the season before we will know for sure.
            With all due respect...I don't see how they could be as deep as last year if these two don't contribute.....At least Walker.....You must be excited about Kircus. Because he's the only one that could make this any better than last year.

            Which could be! I'm not saying that's not the case....Like you said...It'll be weeks before we find out for sure.....At which time Watts will be history....You keep Watts to hedge your bets, I say! Screw the special teamers!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by tnedator
              I never said anything about Devoe lining up as the 3rd, I said 5th.



              No, 'reliable' didn't mean special teams, it meant they catch the ball, something that Watts couldn't do consistantly in Denver. I am not sure if you watched many games in '04, but Watts dropped quite a few KEY 3rd downs that were square in his hands.



              Considering someone better than Watts and special, are two different things.

              My post stated WHY we are deeper and better at WR than last year. It doesn't imply that our 4th and 5th WR will be better or worse than Miami's, Oaklands, Pitt's or anyone elses, only that they will be better than last year's Denver squad.

              In Addition, I pointed out that we now of the option to go 5 wide with decent talent, something we could not do last year. Nate Jackson, who is not knew, but finally healthy is an example of the added depth that we didn't have last year.



              Correction, Brandon Marshall has the potential, three years ago, Watts was in the same position. Watts had two full season and a third training camp/preseason to realize his potential and was unable to do so in Denver.



              The NFL is littered with 'failures' and surprise successes. News flash, that big FAILURE has more wins during his reign in Denver than any other head coach in the league, and during that same time Denver has the most wins of any team.

              That failure went to the AFFCG last year, and his team has 33 wins, only bettered by Indy and NE who have 38 each.

              So, while Watts not panning out might be an indication of A failure of Shanahan's in the pick, I wouldn't be so quick to point out what "winning teams" do, since Shanahan has set the standard in that regard while head coach of the Broncos.
              You jumped on my post before I could edit it! Notice that I changed it (before I read your post) to read "Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #4th or 5th WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play."

              I stand by that comment. And obviously there ARE teams like Indianapolis that DO strike fear into opposing defenses with their #3 WR. Offensively, the biggest weakness the Broncos had last year was they couldn't come from behind.

              Now, you can blame Jake, but I blame the WRs. They didn't have 3 good ones.

              Now Javon is an upgrad on Lelie (apparently), but a rookie WR isn't an upgrade on Watts. Yes he sometimes dropped the ball, but so did Todd Devoe last game and they didn't cut him. Watts never got the chance to play this pre-season.

              I said that there was NO WAY Shanahan would sit Watts out of games (he did two of the last 3 games) if he was on the bubble. I was wrong. He made up his mind against him long ago apparently, because he kept saying "we know what Watts can do" without giving him the chance to prove himself in the preseason.

              As for Marshall, he's a rookie and he's been injured. No way can the team count on him this year. He might do well, we can only hope, but rookies aren't the answer to a SB run, especially rookie WRs.

              I don't think Watts got a fair chance to prove himself in games this year. He's certainly worth more than Charlie Adams.
              Last edited by Cugel; 09-02-2006, 11:43 PM.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by Seamus22015
                You gotta be kidding me. This can only mean that Adam's work on Special Teams meant more then keeping a potentially dangerous backup WR.

                I can't believe this myself. Nothing against Adams but no way he is a stronger keeper then Watts. NO WAY!!!

                Watts has no value on our team. We are full of good WR's. We need people who will play special teams.
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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cugel
                  I don't think Watts got a fair chance to prove himself in games this year. He's certainly worth more than Charlie Adams.
                  Discussing this further is simply an exercise in futility, since you are stuck in a logical rut.

                  However, I will respond to your last sentence that I quoted above.

                  Regardless of how Adams does as a receiver, the fact that he plays special teams and can return punts is MUCH more valuable than having Watts on the roster, but inactive for another season. Inactive players don't produce too much on game day.
                  The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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                  • #39
                    Adams is not a better football player than Watts. I refuse to believe it! Same with Devoe.......If cutting Watts wasn't a mistake, than drafting him in the first place was! Your 2nd round pick can't beat out these two stiffs. Couldn't beat out just one of 'em...........Or maybe the problem is in the coaching staff.

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                    • #40
                      i think it comes down to risk vs reward

                      i personally am sad to see watts go, but he was a high risk player, but with huge upside

                      adams and devoe are low risk, low upside.

                      i think shanny wanted a consistent #3 that would not play stellar, but would play solid when he was in the game. and save the higher risk higher reward position for marshall and hixon. Give them a year or two to see what they will bring to the table, imo marshall is better than watts and will have a better career.
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by underrated29
                        i think it comes down to risk vs reward

                        i personally am sad to see watts go, but he was a high risk player, but with huge upside

                        adams and devoe are low risk, low upside.

                        i think shanny wanted a consistent #3 that would not play stellar, but would play solid when he was in the game. and save the higher risk higher reward position for marshall and hixon. Give them a year or two to see what they will bring to the table, imo marshall is better than watts and will have a better career.
                        You base this on what? Not on what Shanahan tells you?

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                        • #42
                          This was a quote from a previous poster:

                          "If you consider Scheffler being a threat (better than Putz) as well, as a whole this group is extremely strong. I know people are upset over D Watts but the fact is that he had his chance and never seemed to get over that hump. At least thats how I see it."

                          I really like this Scheffler kid and think he will eventually get as many catches, if not more than a 3rd WR. We seem to be in new era of great TE pass catching talent across the league. Here's an intersting quote from a fantasy web site regarding the new emphasis of the pass catching TE:

                          "As recently as 2003, only four tight ends topped 55 receptions. Last season, a record 12 players managed the feat. The NFL is ever-evolving and right now every coach wants a zone busting tight end to patrol the middle of the field."

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                          • #43
                            You guys are killing me.

                            Basically, Denver's WR position should change their names to "special teams", considering some of your guys theory is Denver only needs 2 reliable WR's in Smith and Walker, a rookie WR who hasn't proven a dam thing in Marshall, and other WR scrubs to play special teams, such as Devoe, Adams, and Kirkus.

                            When is Denver going to start using guys that play defense and tackle in special teams, then keeping WR's on the roster ONLY to play special teams?

                            Devoe, Adams, and Kirkus are not even average WR's in the NFL. They are borderline terrible.

                            We have WR's on our roster then couldn't even hack it with Baltimore and Detroit.

                            Think about that.

                            Yet every year Denver insists on keeping more then half their WR's for special teams only.

                            No wonder why Denver continues to struggle at the position.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by silkamilkamonic
                              We have WR's on our roster then couldn't even hack it with Baltimore and Detroit.

                              Think about that.

                              Yet every year Denver insists on keeping more then half their WR's for special teams only.

                              No wonder why Denver continues to struggle at the position.
                              You seem to miss the fact that we kept the best WR's that were on the roster, period. Not just the ones that could play special teams. This year the WR sport should be better than last year, whether or not it becomes a team strength is a whole 'nother story.

                              I know a lot of people are upset that Watts was cut, but it seems they forgot that Watts was inactive for all, or virtually all, of the games last year. He couldn't crack the starting lineup before Marshall was drafted or Kircus was hired away from Subway. What makes anyone think he would have been good enough to play this year?
                              The human body has two ends on it: one to create with and one to sit on. Sometimes people get their ends reversed. When this happens they need a kick in the seat of the pants. --- Theodore Roosevelt

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tnedator
                                You seem to miss the fact that we kept the best WR's that were on the roster, period. Not just the ones that could play special teams. This year the WR sport should be better than last year, whether or not it becomes a team strength is a whole 'nother story.

                                You seem to miss the fact that our best WR's not counting Smith, Walker, and Marshall who's a rookie nobody right now anyways, couldn't even make the hapless Lions or Ravens.

                                The Lions cut Charles Rogers, and he was a #2 when Kirkus got cut.

                                Maybe Denver should sign him, he might even push Walker for the #2.

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