Charlie Adams over Darius Watts?

[underrated29]

i think it comes down to risk vs reward

i personally am sad to see watts go, but he was a high risk player, but with huge upside

adams and devoe are low risk, low upside.

i think shanny wanted a consistent #3 that would not play stellar, but would play solid when he was in the game. and save the higher risk higher reward position for marshall and hixon. Give them a year or two to see what they will bring to the table, imo marshall is better than watts and will have a better career.

[stnzed]

Adams is not a better football player than Watts. I refuse to believe it! Same with Devoe.......If cutting Watts wasn't a mistake, than drafting him in the first place was! Your 2nd round pick can't beat out these two stiffs. Couldn't beat out just one of 'em...........Or maybe the problem is in the coaching staff.

[tnedator]

I don't think Watts got a fair chance to prove himself in games this year. He's certainly worth more than Charlie Adams.

Discussing this further is simply an exercise in futility, since you are stuck in a logical rut.

However, I will respond to your last sentence that I quoted above.

Regardless of how Adams does as a receiver, the fact that he plays special teams and can return punts is MUCH more valuable than having Watts on the roster, but inactive for another season. Inactive players don't produce too much on game day.

[Astrass]

You gotta be kidding me. This can only mean that Adam's work on Special Teams meant more then keeping a potentially dangerous backup WR.

I can't believe this myself. Nothing against Adams but no way he is a stronger keeper then Watts. NO WAY!!!

Watts has no value on our team. We are full of good WR's. We need people who will play special teams.

[Cugel]

I never said anything about Devoe lining up as the 3rd, I said 5th.



No, 'reliable' didn't mean special teams, it meant they catch the ball, something that Watts couldn't do consistantly in Denver. I am not sure if you watched many games in '04, but Watts dropped quite a few KEY 3rd downs that were square in his hands.



Considering someone better than Watts and special, are two different things.

My post stated WHY we are deeper and better at WR than last year. It doesn't imply that our 4th and 5th WR will be better or worse than Miami's, Oaklands, Pitt's or anyone elses, only that they will be better than last year's Denver squad.

In Addition, I pointed out that we now of the option to go 5 wide with decent talent, something we could not do last year. Nate Jackson, who is not knew, but finally healthy is an example of the added depth that we didn't have last year.



Correction, Brandon Marshall has the potential, three years ago, Watts was in the same position. Watts had two full season and a third training camp/preseason to realize his potential and was unable to do so in Denver.



The NFL is littered with 'failures' and surprise successes. News flash, that big FAILURE has more wins during his reign in Denver than any other head coach in the league, and during that same time Denver has the most wins of any team.

That failure went to the AFFCG last year, and his team has 33 wins, only bettered by Indy and NE who have 38 each.

So, while Watts not panning out might be an indication of A failure of Shanahan's in the pick, I wouldn't be so quick to point out what "winning teams" do, since Shanahan has set the standard in that regard while head coach of the Broncos.

You jumped on my post before I could edit it! Notice that I changed it (before I read your post) to read "Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #4th or 5th WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play."

I stand by that comment. And obviously there ARE teams like Indianapolis that DO strike fear into opposing defenses with their #3 WR. Offensively, the biggest weakness the Broncos had last year was they couldn't come from behind.

Now, you can blame Jake, but I blame the WRs. They didn't have 3 good ones.

Now Javon is an upgrad on Lelie (apparently), but a rookie WR isn't an upgrade on Watts. Yes he sometimes dropped the ball, but so did Todd Devoe last game and they didn't cut him. Watts never got the chance to play this pre-season.

I said that there was NO WAY Shanahan would sit Watts out of games (he did two of the last 3 games) if he was on the bubble. I was wrong. He made up his mind against him long ago apparently, because he kept saying "we know what Watts can do" without giving him the chance to prove himself in the preseason.

As for Marshall, he's a rookie and he's been injured. No way can the team count on him this year. He might do well, we can only hope, but rookies aren't the answer to a SB run, especially rookie WRs.

I don't think Watts got a fair chance to prove himself in games this year. He's certainly worth more than Charlie Adams.

[stnzed]

I agree. HOwever, I think we will be at least as deep at wide receiver this year as last, even if Marshall doesn't pan out and Walker's knee isn't healthy. However, we are going to have to get at least a few games, or more, into the season before we will know for sure.

With all due respect...I don't see how they could be as deep as last year if these two don't contribute.....At least Walker.....You must be excited about Kircus. Because he's the only one that could make this any better than last year.

Which could be! I'm not saying that's not the case....Like you said...It'll be weeks before we find out for sure.....At which time Watts will be history....You keep Watts to hedge your bets, I say! Screw the special teamers!

[tnedator]

Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #3 WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

I never said anything about Devoe lining up as the 3rd, I said 5th.

Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

No, 'reliable' didn't mean special teams, it meant they catch the ball, something that Watts couldn't do consistantly in Denver. I am not sure if you watched many games in '04, but Watts dropped quite a few KEY 3rd downs that were square in his hands.

The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

Considering someone better than Watts and special, are two different things.

My post stated WHY we are deeper and better at WR than last year. It doesn't imply that our 4th and 5th WR will be better or worse than Miami's, Oaklands, Pitt's or anyone elses, only that they will be better than last year's Denver squad.

In Addition, I pointed out that we now of the option to go 5 wide with decent talent, something we could not do last year. Nate Jackson, who is not knew, but finally healthy is an example of the added depth that we didn't have last year.

Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

Correction, Brandon Marshall has the potential, three years ago, Watts was in the same position. Watts had two full season and a third training camp/preseason to realize his potential and was unable to do so in Denver.

It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!

The NFL is littered with 'failures' and surprise successes. News flash, that big FAILURE has more wins during his reign in Denver than any other head coach in the league, and during that same time Denver has the most wins of any team.

That failure went to the AFFCG last year, and his team has 33 wins, only bettered by Indy and NE who have 38 each.

So, while Watts not panning out might be an indication of A failure of Shanahan's in the pick, I wouldn't be so quick to point out what "winning teams" do, since Shanahan has set the standard in that regard while head coach of the Broncos.

[stnzed]

Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #3 WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!

Watts was one of only two draft pick at the position that proved he could play.....He has problems with his hands, sure. If I was Shanahan, I would let him try and play through it. Because Shanahan's record with drafting WR's is pathetic. This guy was as close as it get's to being successful, along with Lelie.

[Lorcust]

Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #3 WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!

Most #3's don't really put fear into defenses anyway. Time will tell if the decision was a right one. You have a right to have questions as Watts's release certainly leaves us with a few.

I'm not saying your wrong or right, but I'd like to see how it all turns out and how we do on the field based on this decision.

Marshall could turn out good as you said, Kircus could do well and Devoe could do decent with a year of learning the system and the division.

Devoe didn't really suck it up last year, he did well when he got the ball usually.

Overall, I don't see how we could be worse than last year. Even if unproven, I believe any of these guys we have is an improvement over Adams at the slot. At the very least we will be just the same there for now.

[Cugel]

Time will tell.

If healthy, Walker is better than Lelie.

Based on preseason, Kircus is more reliable as a 3rd WR (which is a guy you want to catch the ball and help convert 3rd downs) then Watts.

Marshall is still an unkown, but looked good in training camp and the first pre-season game.

Nate Jackson is finally healthy, and has been lining up wide much of the preseason.

Scheffler has been playing in the slot and doing well.

So, last year we had basically Smith and Lelie, Plus Adams/Devoe - Putz and this is what the team managed:
Now, this year, we have Smith and Walker, Plus Kircus/Marshall/Adams/Devoe - Scheff/Jackson.

That looks like a big upgrade to me.

We still have our number one receiver, and Walker shoudl easialy be able to match Lelie's production, plus is better on the slants and other over the middle stuff.

Scheffler and Jackson should combine for significantly more catches than Putz, and Adams/Devoe/Alexander are still on the team, but we have the addition of Kircus.

More importantly, if we want, we can run 4 or 5 wide from the first game of the season (even if Marshall is not ready to go). Day one we can throw Smith, Walker, Scheff, Kircus and Devoe/Jackson/Adams out in a 5 wide formation, which wasn't much of an option last year.

There has been a significant upgrade in both WR and TE this year, which was desperately needed.

Sorry, but I'm not buying this!

Teams are going to tremble in their boots seeing Todd Devoe or Kircus line up as the #4th or 5th WR? Neither is exactly Reggie Wayne. Both are dependable scrubs who are on the 53 man roster because of their special teams play.

Neither was as talented as Watts, but were more "reliable" meaning they were special teams gunners and could occasionally catch a short pass. Depending on them for anything more than that would be foolish. They are like 50 other guys on teams throughout the league. Every team has it's own Todd Devoes, Charlie Adams's and David Kircus's. Mediocre punt/kick returners, special teams guys and 4th-5th string WRs in a pinch.

The only reason Broncos fans think they're anything special is because you follow the team so closely and don't see the exactly similar players on, say the Steelers or Rams or Cowboys. They are entirely AVERAGE and there's a good chance next year will see all of them replaced by slimilar special teams specialists.

Brandon Marshall has the potential to be something more, as does Watts. Hopefully, when Marshall comes back from his injury he'll show something, but he's a rookie, so what he can do this year will be limited.

It takes WRs a couple of seasons to mature, which is why cutting your former 2nd round pick in Watts is such a big FAILURE of Shanahan's drafting. You can't keep putting in rookies! That's what losing teams do! Winning teams draft a guy, wait a couple of years for him to develop and put him in the lineup! Not cut him!

Frankly, the team could really use Lelie right aboutnow as #3 WR. THAT would have been great. But, he threw a fit and demanded a trade. Now that NEITHER Terrell or Watts was able to prove anything, they are seriously lacking in a #3 WR.

[tnedator]

I'm as excited about Walker as any.....I'm just concerned about his knee..."Don't count your chickens..." kinda thing.

I agree. HOwever, I think we will be at least as deep at wide receiver this year as last, even if Marshall doesn't pan out and Walker's knee isn't healthy. However, we are going to have to get at least a few games, or more, into the season before we will know for sure.

[stnzed]

Maybe this will help him understand what Walker brings to the table.

2004 Receiving Leaders									
RNK	               NAME	               REC	YDS	AVG	YPG	LNG	TD	FUM	LST
1	M. Muhammad WR, CAR	93	1405	15.1	87.8	51	16	2	0
2	Joe Horn WR,        NOR	94	1399	14.9	87.4	57	11	0	0
3	Javon Walker WR, GNB	89	1382	15.5	86.4	79	12	2	2
4	Torry Holt WR,       STL	94	1372	14.6	85.8	75	10	3	1
5	Isaac Bruce WR, STL	89	1292	14.5	80.8	56	6	5	4
6	Chad Johnson WR, CIN	95	1274	13.4	79.6	53	9	1	0
7	Tony Gonzalez TE, KAN	102	1258	12.3	78.6	32	7	0	0
8	Drew Bennett WR, TEN	80	1247	15.6	77.9	48	11	2	0
9	Reggie Wayne WR, IND	77	1210	15.7	75.6	71	12	0	0
10	Donald Driver WR, GNB	84	1208	14.4	75.5	50	9	1	1
11	Terrell Owens WR, PHI	77	1200	15.6	85.7	59	14	2	1
12	D. Jackson WR,      SEA	87	1199	13.8	74.9	56	7	2	1
13	M. Clayton WR,      TAM	80	1193	14.9	74.6	75	7	0	0
14	Jimmy Smith WR, JAC	74	1172	15.8	73.3	65	6	2	1
15	Derrick Mason WR, TEN	96	1168	12.2	73	37	7	0	0
16	Rod Smith WR,       DEN	79	1144	14.5	71.5	85	7	1	0
17	Andre Johnson WR, HOU	79	1142	14.5	71.4	54	6	1	1
18	M. Harrison WR,      IND	86	1113	12.9	69.6	59	15	1	1
19	E. Kennison WR, KAN	62	1086	17.5	77.6	70	8	1	1
20	Ashley Lelie WR, DEN	54	1084	20.1	67.8	58	7	0	0

I'm as excited about Walker as any.....I'm just concerned about his knee..."Don't count your chickens..." kinda thing.

[Humberg]

Maybe this will help him understand what Walker brings to the table.

2004 Receiving Leaders									
RNK	               NAME	               REC	YDS	AVG	YPG	LNG	TD	FUM	LST
1	M. Muhammad WR, CAR	93	1405	15.1	87.8	51	16	2	0
2	Joe Horn WR,        NOR	94	1399	14.9	87.4	57	11	0	0
3	Javon Walker WR, GNB	89	1382	15.5	86.4	79	12	2	2
4	Torry Holt WR,       STL	94	1372	14.6	85.8	75	10	3	1
5	Isaac Bruce WR, STL	89	1292	14.5	80.8	56	6	5	4
6	Chad Johnson WR, CIN	95	1274	13.4	79.6	53	9	1	0
7	Tony Gonzalez TE, KAN	102	1258	12.3	78.6	32	7	0	0
8	Drew Bennett WR, TEN	80	1247	15.6	77.9	48	11	2	0
9	Reggie Wayne WR, IND	77	1210	15.7	75.6	71	12	0	0
10	Donald Driver WR, GNB	84	1208	14.4	75.5	50	9	1	1
11	Terrell Owens WR, PHI	77	1200	15.6	85.7	59	14	2	1
12	D. Jackson WR,      SEA	87	1199	13.8	74.9	56	7	2	1
13	M. Clayton WR,      TAM	80	1193	14.9	74.6	75	7	0	0
14	Jimmy Smith WR, JAC	74	1172	15.8	73.3	65	6	2	1
15	Derrick Mason WR, TEN	96	1168	12.2	73	37	7	0	0
16	Rod Smith WR,       DEN	79	1144	14.5	71.5	85	7	1	0
17	Andre Johnson WR, HOU	79	1142	14.5	71.4	54	6	1	1
18	M. Harrison WR,      IND	86	1113	12.9	69.6	59	15	1	1
19	E. Kennison WR, KAN	62	1086	17.5	77.6	70	8	1	1
20	Ashley Lelie WR, DEN	54	1084	20.1	67.8	58	7	0	0

Thanks tnedator!!! I mean this guys a monster!!!! Look at where TO is! Javon is a full 7 above him! MONSTER!!!!

[WABronco]

And you know whats even worse?


We passed up Ed Reed to draft Lelie



we could have Ed Reed AND Javon Walker on this team instead of just Walker...

At least Lelie was a useful player for a period of time.

Terry Pierce hurts more to me. If you want to know which players we passed on...look here. Pierce was pick no. 51.

[tnedator]

Javon Walker - are you not reading anything that has been printed about this guy??? Did you not see the games??? This guy is a monster, he's going to tear it up. Yeah sure, he's coming back from ACL surgery, but all reports to date say he's made a full recovery. Lelie was going nowhere in Denver, Javon is turning heads. HUGE upgrade here.

Maybe this will help him understand what Walker brings to the table.

2004 Receiving Leaders									
RNK	               NAME	               REC	YDS	AVG	YPG	LNG	TD	FUM	LST
1	M. Muhammad WR, CAR	93	1405	15.1	87.8	51	16	2	0
2	Joe Horn WR,        NOR	94	1399	14.9	87.4	57	11	0	0
3	Javon Walker WR, GNB	89	1382	15.5	86.4	79	12	2	2
4	Torry Holt WR,       STL	94	1372	14.6	85.8	75	10	3	1
5	Isaac Bruce WR, STL	89	1292	14.5	80.8	56	6	5	4
6	Chad Johnson WR, CIN	95	1274	13.4	79.6	53	9	1	0
7	Tony Gonzalez TE, KAN	102	1258	12.3	78.6	32	7	0	0
8	Drew Bennett WR, TEN	80	1247	15.6	77.9	48	11	2	0
9	Reggie Wayne WR, IND	77	1210	15.7	75.6	71	12	0	0
10	Donald Driver WR, GNB	84	1208	14.4	75.5	50	9	1	1
11	Terrell Owens WR, PHI	77	1200	15.6	85.7	59	14	2	1
12	D. Jackson WR,      SEA	87	1199	13.8	74.9	56	7	2	1
13	M. Clayton WR,      TAM	80	1193	14.9	74.6	75	7	0	0
14	Jimmy Smith WR, JAC	74	1172	15.8	73.3	65	6	2	1
15	Derrick Mason WR, TEN	96	1168	12.2	73	37	7	0	0
16	Rod Smith WR,       DEN	79	1144	14.5	71.5	85	7	1	0
17	Andre Johnson WR, HOU	79	1142	14.5	71.4	54	6	1	1
18	M. Harrison WR,      IND	86	1113	12.9	69.6	59	15	1	1
19	E. Kennison WR, KAN	62	1086	17.5	77.6	70	8	1	1
20	Ashley Lelie WR, DEN	54	1084	20.1	67.8	58	7	0	0