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Before placing blame, look at the tight ends and wide receiver numbers....

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  • #16
    Originally posted by JRWIZ
    He who laughs last. Jake is laughing all the way to the bank.

    I would not be upset to see him tell the nutballs in DEN to stick their football up their collective butts and move on. This town will never allow anyone to be Qb unless John come back to town. Poor cutler little does he realize he is next in line for their wrath.
    When Griese was in, it was" If we had Elway things would be different" Denver had postElwaypartumdepression.Now we have a quarterback with better numbers and he still isnt good enough. They dont remember the years and years of struggle Elway went through. Well Jake is doing the same thing....

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    • #17
      Originally posted by goucho141
      The Denver Broncos miss Mr. Kubiak. How can you expect a team to maintain corporate memory when they lose a talent that lived and coached through Elway's time. I am thinking an 11 and 5 season at best and a wild card. The AFC west is really tuff. Thats just a start. Before placing blame on Jake Plumber like little kids, look at the wide receiver and tightend numbers. Look at the depth chart. Look at the 2006 numbers. After 9 games the only wide receiver with respectable numbers is Javon Walker.

      Lets look at the 2006 numbers a little closer: Rod Smith 32 catches for 318, Kircus 6 catches for 122 yards, Alexander 11 for 105 yards, Scheffler 6 for 67, Marshal 2 for 22...........

      Javon Walker 41 catches for 714 yards.....

      Compare this to the Colts Reggie Wayne 55 for 885 and Marvin Harrison 60 for 813

      Compare this to Chargers : Gates 44 for 523, Parker 34 for 490, Tomlinson 47 for 451, McCardell 30 for 370 This reflects a quarterback that knows his receivers and all their on the field behaviors. He lets the play develop and waits for the opportunity.

      With one more star wide receiver, opposing teams would have to play man to man coverage, the Safeties would have to commit to the down field, and the Bronco running game would regain the innitiative. ( Tatem bell is a 6 yard per carrie average guy and Mike Bell is a badass, Cecil Sapp is another damn good player) Our runningbacks are excellent. With a good passing game, the Broncos could run down trhe throats of anyone.

      Shanahan is playing conservative this year because he lost Kubiak to Houston and his pass receivers are average. ( It took Schottenheimer decades to finally beat the Broncos like this) Its like losing a couple of guns on a Manowar battleship, you know what he has got, you just hope you can withstand the onslaught. Kubiak was 4 100 pound parrot guns with case shot. I cryed when he left.

      Their play book reflects the loss of Kubiak's Coaching talent. The NFL is determined by inches and corpoarte memory....................The loss of Kubiak allowed Schottenheimer the win. ( Plumber throwing interceptions didnt help, it was however written in the stars) He has been in the trenches with Cleveland, Kansas City, and San Diego. He finally got his due..............Inches and corporate memory.......... The Steelers won the superbowl because of their team concept, hardwork, corporate memory ,and a new spastic quarterback that no one could figure out. No one can figure out Rivers yet!!! Everyone now has figured out Rothlessburger. ( We should have kicked Pittsburgs ass last year), it was a gift to Betiss) They will figure Rivers out. This is Schottenheimers best shot at the superbowl ever. Meanwhile Plumber and the Broncos will just get better. They wont care if they get figured out, they will just steamrole everyone anyways.Shanahan and the Broncos will always be the best.

      Meanwhile either the pass receivers mentioned above are either to slow to get open, cant catch the ball, or Jake Plumber does not read his field well. Jake only needs just a few more down field, scrimmage (possesion) and across the middle (Macafrey style) opportunities to open up the running game. It seems the tight ends and wide receivers have yet to develop an identity through excellence. Elway had the 3 amigos he could depend on Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson and Ricky Nattiel. He could depend on Rod Smith and Macafrey. Jake can only depend on Javon right now, and to a lesser extent Rod Smith. Last year Ashley Lalee helped with 3rd down conversions because he could catch the ball down field. he saved many a 3rd downs. The others have yet to gain confiidence or an identity. One of them has to step up to the plate now! I was dissapointed when they let Puzier go, he was the first tightend we have had since Macafrey that had good hands and would go across the middle. I had high hopes that Scheffler would be better than he is. A big guy , good hands, who could punish the defense. As it is, he has no identity. When is he going to arrive? Losing Duane Carswell to an accident was a tragedy. he couldnt come back from that. The Broncos need another Duane Carswell. or Shannon Sharpe.

      Javon Walker has the abillity to get open and he can catch the football. When Plumber forces it to the rest of the pass receivers, they either drop the ball or it gets intercepted. Even Payton Manning could do little with this. The pass receivers are not stepping up to the plate, running their routes and getting open. The play book is conservative, and the running game is suffering from this. Rod Smith although a great player, is not getting the numbers he is used to. Look at the histrory of past Broncos or any other NFL team. When the numbers start to drop on seasoned players, they never come back. It happened to Macafrey, Haven Moses, Rylie Odoms, Lyn Swann, Jerry Rice, Randy Moss etc. etc. etc. The Broncos need a first round draft pic Wide receiver or a good free agent. Watch the tapes, the pass receivers are not getting open on zone or man to man defenses.

      Without a passing game, one does not have a running game. Without a running game, one does not have a passing game.

      Plumber is part of the problem . He does not enjoy the synergy of really good pass receivers. Collectively they do not have regular football move behaviors he can vent to. One could say he doesnt know his receivers, and he isnt asking enough of them. Throw the ball to them like Elway did. Elways passes broke thumbs and fingers, but he threw the ball right to them. They caught the ball and their confidence increased. Amother thing!!!! What happened to the shotgun and bootleg? Bootleg right, pump fake , toss off to right etc. The play book is very boring...

      He almost beat the Colts this year, and they smoked the Patriots>>>>>>>>>>His numbers are better than Elways...What else do you want. Maybe we can trade him for Manning or Brady.

      Any NFL team in the league would snatch him up to start in a heart beat. Then he would come back and stomp the Broncos...............

      Shanahan needs the offensive coach to think out of the box that he is in, and play a better play book. I thought the Broncos were holding back their better play book for the end of the season and playoffs. Now I think they have been giving it all they have and offensive coordinator just doesnt get it. Rod Smith needs to step up to the plate and get open. The tight ends need to get open and hold on to the ball. I garrantee if these fellas were operating up to snuff, Plumbers numbers would be much better. Leave Jake alone for a little while. Dont pollute the atmospehere with defeatism and negativety. Be nice and see if things get better. You are disrupting the time, space, continuum. Go Jake ! Own this town!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and watch some Colt tapes and see how Payton does it for the love of pete. And quit throwing interceptions . And yes Plumber does not read the field well. Cutler will be there in time. He will also be armed with several newer pass receivers. The defense needs nothing.


      or jake could develop a way to accually read a defense, work on his poor accuracy and accually hiit one of these targets...that might help there


      you all can push blame whereever you want the facts are the facts ....it is displayed each and everyweek....jake is a poor qb...when he plays bad the whole offense is limited...when he plays well , the offense works....why is rod suddenly open on some games , walker? the te, BECAUSE WHEN JAKE IS PLAYIONG WELL HE HITS THEM.. when he isnt , well you see what happens everyones numbers go down


      face it jakes days are numbered
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      when do native Americans become human and not mascots

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      • #18
        Originally posted by arapaho
        or jake could develop a way to accually read a defense, work on his poor accuracy and accually hiit one of these targets...that might help there


        you all can push blame whereever you want the facts are the facts ....it is displayed each and everyweek....jake is a poor qb...when he plays bad the whole offense is limited...when he plays well , the offense works....why is rod suddenly open on some games , walker? the te, BECAUSE WHEN JAKE IS PLAYIONG WELL HE HITS THEM.. when he isnt , well you see what happens everyones numbers go down


        face it jakes days are numbered
        I think with better coaching, WRs, focus and determination, Jake would become the best in the league.

        Comment


        • #19
          Plummer threw the TDs

          Originally posted by TXBRONC
          First its not a good comparison of the Colts passing attack to ours. They throw the ball more and have an all pro quarterback throwing to them. Also I have never agreed with anyone that tries us the argument that the reason we are struggling offensively is because Kubiak isn't here. It's same plays, and formations that have been here past 10 years and Jake Plummer has been in this system for four years he know the playbook. Plummer is not executing the offense the way he should. I am also of the opinion that with numbers so heavily stacked towards Javon looking for his other options.



          Again I don't think the receiving corp is bad, but rather teams are putting eight in the box and daring us to beat with the pass.



          Then how do you explain the conservative playing call of last season when Kubiak was here. In fact, one the primary reasons Shanahan brought Heimendinger to Denver was so that the passing attack might be opened up more this year than last.



          No losing Kubiak didn't cause us to loss this game poor execution did. If that's the case then we should have lost to the Patriots as well.



          Again I don't see it as it the receivers not getting open its that Jake seems to have problems with making more than one read.



          So you're saying Rod Smith and Stephen Alexander don't know what routes they are suppose to run? Rod is an 11 year veteran. I would not find it hard to believe that he would know the playbook as well as Shanahan. The problem is execution as I mentioned earlier.



          Denver is 4th in the League in rushing.



          No Plummer did not almost beat the Colts the team almost beat the Colts. What I would like to see is better execution by the quarterback in the passing game.



          While there may be some teams that would pick him it certainly isn't every team in the League. I'm reasonably sure that the Colts, Patriots, Eagles, 49ers, Titans, Chargers, Cardinals, Bengals, and Steelers would say differently.



          As I have stated before if Jake were more accurate with his passes that would help tremendously and if could do a better job of finding other receivers besides Javon.
          Our running game was bleak...it was a shootout........And Plummer is NOT Manning, but our kline requires a mobile QB, and you know Manning is not that. he would stink it up in Denver......

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Thesameold333
            Our running game was bleak...it was a shootout........And Plummer is NOT Manning, but our kline requires a mobile QB, and you know Manning is not that. he would stink it up in Denver......
            it was an exciting game. the broncos have never had a better defense ever. The Broncos under Shanahan have always been a team. I feel that this year, as well as last, the Broncos have dominated in ways not seen since Elway. In some ways the team is more consistent. If Plumber were more consistent managing the offense and not throwing interceptions, he would parralel some of Elways best contributions. The equasion is almost there. We all forget the 500 football under Reeves and Elway. I dislike Manning. I wasnt depressed abouthe loss to Sandiego or the Colts. The team played their hearts out. The equasion is close for a superbowl. I do not think it is this year.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 22cannon
              TXBronc you nailed it.

              It all comes down to execution. Receivers can't catch passes over their heads or at their shoelaces. Passes gotta be on the money in a west-coast style passing game.
              Yep. I don't expect Jake to be pinpoint accurate with his passes but I think a lot better than he has done this year.
              John 11: 25-27

              My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



              Thanks Snk16

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Thesameold333
                Our running game was bleak...it was a shootout........And Plummer is NOT Manning, but our oline requires a mobile QB, and you know Manning is not that. he would stink it up in Denver......
                Our running game was not bleak against the Chargers.

                We had a combined 158 yards rushing on 35 carries which is a ypc of 4.5.

                The two primary running backs more than held their own.

                M. Bell 20 carries for 90 yards. That's a ypc of 4.5 and two tds.

                Nash 10 carries for 52 yards. That's a ypc of 5.2.

                So the two guys that got the most touches had a combined 30 carries for 142 yard with a ypc of 4.7. That is nowhere near bleak.

                I don't expect Jake to be like Manning but I do expect him to more accurate with his throws than has been all season.

                I was understanding goucho to say that because Wayne and Harrison have huge numbers that it means our receivers stink which isn't true imo. We don't throw the ball as much as they nor do is our qb as accurate or as good at spreading the ball around.

                This game got be a shootout because our offense couldn't sustain drives and from what I saw that had to with passing game not the running game.
                John 11: 25-27

                My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                Thanks Snk16

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mojo0730
                  Please. It's like that for every quarterback in every town. It's not exclusive to Denver.

                  It was a problem with Brian Griese. It was a problem with John Elway. It was a problem with Steve Young. It was a problem with Joe Montana. It was a problem with Terry Bradsaw. Even Colts fans, as great as he is, have doubts if Peyton will ever deliver them a Super Bowl. And do you remember how 'terrible' Tom Brady was just last week after back-to-back losses and his subpar performances? What about Ben Rothlesburger (sp?)? He led the Steelers to the Super Bowl last season and that city was screaming for Charlie frickin' batch.

                  You pro-Jake fantatics act like this is a Denver problem and it's because of John Elway. That's not even true. This is the NFL and that's the nature of the game. Either a player deals with it and responds well, or they don't, and they subsequently get benched/released/cut/traded...whatever. But don't act like this is a problem with the fans or turn it around like the fans had something to do with Jake's subpar performance last night and all season.
                  Mojo,

                  I understand what you're saying, but I respectfully disagree with the amount of attacks on Plummer as being typical of every other NFL city. It is MUCH heavier on the Denver posts.

                  There are alot of qb controversies out there and I've lived in different cities where there was one. But this is off the chain, especially for a rookie qb. I'm currently in Jacksonville but I've lived through it in Philly and New York.

                  While I do not claim to be pro Jake or pro Cutler (I just want to win and I trust Shanny), the intesity of the debate is VERY high, higher than most places.

                  I, too, am very frustrated with his performance, and agree that everyone has a right to be, the premise of the post is correct. Javon Walker, Plummer, the RBs, the Offense in general, needs more support from the receiving corp.

                  There is usually a trend that if there are enough playmakers, a qb looks good. And consequently, when there is not enough, a qb looks bad. That is not excusing the forced passes and fumbles and I am not questioning the PUT CUTLER IN NOW folks, because I understand why.

                  It is, however, a little over the top, that the posts are constantly all about that and little else regarding the lack of production for the offense.
                  Last edited by kmcgough25; 11-21-2006, 07:25 AM.
                  My 2011 adopted poster.........and and



                  Adopted by: and

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by goucho141
                    I think with better coaching, WRs, focus and determination, Jake would become the best in the league.

                    then hopefully he will find that somewhere else then here...we already have one of the best coaches around,,,a couple of good recievers , a decent te's a great oline , and a great defense..............what more could we give him to succeed.....

                    you do know he has basicaly the same team as last year, same HC and he played good....why not now.....cause that was it the pinnicle of jakes career, its down to second string and retirement from here out


                    and we cant give him focus and determination? you know that dont you? that must come from inside grasshopper!!
                    sigpic
                    when do native Americans become human and not mascots

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                    • #25
                      goucho141, remember that most who post here are little kids, so, don't take what they say too seriously. lots goes into making a team successful, we miss Kubes a lot, that, our lack of a #1 rb, zero tight end production (hello tony?), and the ageless mr. smith slowing down has all contributed to our shaky offense.

                      we knew going into this season it wouldn't be easy with our tough schedule. this ain't last season folks! but a wild card wouldn't be so bad, just ask the steelers!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by champ24girl
                        goucho141, remember that most who post here are little kids, so, don't take what they say too seriously. lots goes into making a team successful, we miss Kubes a lot, that, our lack of a #1 rb, zero tight end production (hello tony?), and the ageless mr. smith slowing down has all contributed to our shaky offense.

                        we knew going into this season it wouldn't be easy with our tough schedule. this ain't last season folks! but a wild card wouldn't be so bad, just ask the steelers!
                        We have the number four rushing attack in the NFL and yes we do have number one running back but he's been on the shelf the last games do to injury.

                        Also the tight ends can't be productive if the quarterback doesn't utilize them in the passing game.

                        I don't believe that Kubiak being gone has anything to do with the lack of production. First off, its same playbook, that has been here for the last 11 seasons. Second, when Heimendinger was brought in the offensive scheme didn't change and it was also made known that Shanahan wanted to use more multiple receiver sets that are already in the playbook that Jake should already know.

                        Hey I'll take making the playoffs over not any day but the last two times we have gone in as a wild card we have not faired well so I would rather we won the division.
                        John 11: 25-27

                        My Adopt-A-Bronco is D.J. Williams



                        Thanks Snk16

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TXBRONC
                          We have the number four rushing attack in the NFL and yes we do have number one running back but he's been on the shelf the last games do to injury.

                          Also the tight ends can't be productive if the quarterback doesn't utilize them in the passing game.

                          I don't believe that Kubiak being gone has anything to do with the lack of production. First off, its same playbook, that has been here for the last 11 seasons. Second, when Heimendinger was brought in the offensive scheme didn't change and it was also made known that Shanahan wanted to use more multiple receiver sets that are already in the playbook that Jake should already know.

                          Hey I'll take making the playoffs over not any day but the last two times we have gone in as a wild card we have not faired well so I would rather we won the division.

                          Normally I have you on ignore but I wanted to rebut some of this.

                          The TE's are being held into block because of the inexperience at OT. I think I noted but could be wrong that the TE was in a pattern only once in the SAN game and that was in the 4th qtr.

                          Our #1 RB is not the game breaker like everyone thought him to be. The big numbers he put up were early in the year when he was fresh. He has seemed to have worn down until he was injured.

                          I personnaly like Nash the best out of the group and them M Bell. Over what I have seen in the past few games. They seem to run with more authority and don't go down at first contact.

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                          • #28
                            do you remember Tatum and Anderson making hella yards last year

                            Originally posted by JRWIZ
                            Normally I have you on ignore but I wanted to rebut some of this.

                            The TE's are being held into block because of the inexperience at OT. I think I noted but could be wrong that the TE was in a pattern only once in the SAN game and that was in the 4th qtr.

                            Our #1 RB is not the game breaker like everyone thought him to be. The big numbers he put up were early in the year when he was fresh. He has seemed to have worn down until he was injured.

                            I personnaly like Nash the best out of the group and them M Bell. Over what I have seen in the past few games. They seem to run with more authority and don't go down at first contact.
                            denver has had it so good with the running game and shanahan that they do not have an accurate perception of what a good running game is! Watch some of the old films with samy Winder beeting out 2.3 yards a carry. This will get you back on track. tatum bell can break out for excellent yardage. He hurt his foot.Give him a frigging break.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by goucho141
                              When Griese was in, it was" If we had Elway things would be different" Denver had postElwaypartumdepression.Now we have a quarterback with better numbers and he still isnt good enough. They dont remember the years and years of struggle Elway went through. Well Jake is doing the same thing....
                              The reason he has better number is because the team IS better...For the most part of Elways career he WAS the team...Elway won games with mediocre players on the offense and our defense wasn't that good so he had to win most of his games in the 3rd and 4th quarters coming from behind...

                              Plummer has a more complete team around him offensively and defensively and they play like a team. How many fumbles or interceptions has Jake had this year during key possesions? It's quit a few and it is understandable that the fans are upset for just this reason. They should also be upset with receivers that don't catch balls thrown to them though, I don't see that though...
                              I Love Orange Crush!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by goucho141
                                denver has had it so good with the running game and shanahan that they do not have an accurate perception of what a good running game is! Watch some of the old films with samy Winder beeting out 2.3 yards a carry. This will get you back on track. tatum bell can break out for excellent yardage. He hurt his foot.Give him a frigging break.
                                Go back and look at his numbers before the foot injurry he was loossing reps to Mike bell and his numbers yardage was down. Now the YPC is pretty good but he has not "taken it to teh house" yet this year form more than 20 or so yards out in fact he has had few longer runs than last year.

                                Last year he had a 69 yarder this year 39
                                Year Team Rush Yds Avg Lg TD 1st Stf YdL Fum FbL
                                2004 DEN 75 396 5.3 29 3 18 1 2 0 0
                                2005 DEN 173 921 5.3 68 8 41 14 28 3 1
                                2006 DEN 151 649 4.3 39 2 28 11 23 1 1
                                Totals: 399 1966 4.9 68 13 87 26 53 4 2
                                http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...800/index.html
                                He is carrying it more for less per carry.
                                Code:
                                CAT                         G Att Yds Avg Lg TD 1st 
                                SEPTEMBER GAMES 3 58 295 5.1 39  0  13 
                                OCTOBER GAMES    4 79 317 4.0 17  2  13 
                                NOVEMBER GAMES  1 14   37 2.6   9  0   2 
                                CLE Brown              1 24 115 4.8 17  1   4 
                                STL                          1 15 103 6.9 39  0   5 
                                NE                            1 27 123 4.6 21 0 5 
                                DEN       MILE HIGh  4 71 271 3.8 20 1 12 
                                VS. BALTIMORE        1 19 92 4.8 17 0 4 
                                VS. CLEVELAND        1 24 115 4.8 17 1 4 
                                VS. INDIANAPOLIS   1 13 27 2.1 7 0 1 
                                VS. KANSAS CITY      1 16 69 4.3 20 0 3 
                                VS. NEW ENGLAND   1 27 123 4.6 21 0 5 
                                VS. OAKLAND            2 37 120 3.2 10 1 6 
                                VS. ST. LOUIS           1 15 103 6.9 39 0 5 
                                CAT G Att Yds Avg Lg TD 1st 
                                VS AFC TEAMS         7 136 546 4.0 21 2 23 
                                VS NFC TEAMS         1 15 103 6.9 39 0 5 
                                VS OWN DIVISION   3 53 189 3.6 20 1 9 
                                OUTSIDE OWN DIV  5 98 460 4.7 39 1 19 
                                oWN 1-20 - YARD LINE 0 28 181 6.5 39 0 7 
                                OWN 21-50 YARD LINE 0 62 281 4.5 20 0 11 
                                OPP 49-20 - YARD LINE 0 47 139 3.0 17 0 6 
                                OPP 19-1 -  oppsYARD LINE 0 14 48 3.4 12 2 4 
                                CAT G Att Yds Avg Lg TD 1st 
                                ON ARTIFICIAL SURFACES 1 15 103 6.9 39 0 5 
                                ON GRASS FIELDS 7 136 546 4.0 21 2 23 
                                INDOOR GAMES 1 15 103 6.9 39 0 5 
                                OUTDOOR GAMES 7 136 546 4.0 21 2 23 
                                HOME GAMES 4 71 271 3.8 20 1 12 
                                ATTEMPTS 1-10    0 80 380 4.8 39 2 16 
                                ATTEMPTS 11-20  0 57 225 3.9 20 0 10 
                                ATTEMPTS 21-30  0 14 44 3.1 14 0 2 
                                ATTEMPTS 31+ 0 0 0 --- 0 0 0 
                                CAT G Att Yds Avg Lg TD 1st
                                1ST QUARTER  0 31 118 3.8 21 1 3 
                                2ND QUARTER  0 40 198 5.0 19 1 9 
                                3RD QUARTER  0 32 167 5.2 39 0 7 
                                4TH QUARTER  0 42 141 3.4 14 0 8
                                He cleary is not effective in the 1&4th qtr as in the 2-3 Nor after carry 21 and maybe even carry ten.

                                It is not just being hurt unless he was playing a team early in the year or a team with a lousy run defense he was or appears to not be very effective as our Stud Buffalo. Perhaps he need to split more time like last year.

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