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Before placing blame, look at the tight ends and wide receiver numbers....

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  • looneyrida719
    replied
    The Difference

    When our Team was going for 8-8,9-6 seasons I always would feel the Super Bowl was a definate reality. Now a 10-6 season seems to invoke doom and disillusionment.

    we had a qurterback that could run, bootleg, read coverages and deliver a ball accurately before a defender even knew it was thrown. He also made plenty of mistakes not only early but also late in his carreer. However he is a hall of fame quarterback because he would make things happen when he had to. Visions of "HE" running on a third and long, or throwing a 20 yard laser on a fourth and short all for first downs and eventual game winning drives.

    The DIFFERENCE is my boy JAKE will not finish a game like a leader should. I am no coach nor analysist but it seems to me Jake often times seems to be on a leash. because if not his actions portray him to be a descentQB not aBronco QB.for example is still fresh in my mind i recall our drive in the Indy game where it was 3rd and 8 or somthin and he evaded a sack to throw the ball for an incompletion. Pkays like that make me wonder what is going on up in his NOODLE.He knows a fieldgoal would only tie. I am like run Jake, but naw, He throws an incomplete er settle for 3 and indy goes down to kick afieldgoal for the win. And Last week against Diego! I can live with the mistakes. All I ask is give the team something back. Makeup for that mishap. Do whatever needs to be done.

    I cannot believe that being a QB in our system is easy. Coach Shanny is creative and exploits weaknesses. Watching on TV it is like watching arobot at work when I watch JAkes actions. With that said is Shannahan going to trip if you audible throw to the 3rd receiver, or for goodness sakes hit the sprints yourself(if we win)?

    Maybe some of yall vets on this board can educate me a little. I can use some clarity.

    I

    Leave a comment:


  • MindField
    replied
    Well

    Originally posted by goucho141
    The Denver Broncos miss Mr. Kubiak. How can you expect a team to maintain corporate memory when they lose a talent that lived and coached through Elway's time. I am thinking an 11 and 5 season at best and a wild card. The AFC west is really tuff. Thats just a start. Before placing blame on Jake Plumber like little kids, look at the wide receiver and tightend numbers. Look at the depth chart. Look at the 2006 numbers. After 9 games the only wide receiver with respectable numbers is Javon Walker.

    Lets look at the 2006 numbers a little closer: Rod Smith 32 catches for 318, Kircus 6 catches for 122 yards, Alexander 11 for 105 yards, Scheffler 6 for 67, Marshal 2 for 22...........

    Javon Walker 41 catches for 714 yards.....

    Compare this to the Colts Reggie Wayne 55 for 885 and Marvin Harrison 60 for 813

    Compare this to Chargers : Gates 44 for 523, Parker 34 for 490, Tomlinson 47 for 451, McCardell 30 for 370 This reflects a quarterback that knows his receivers and all their on the field behaviors. He lets the play develop and waits for the opportunity.

    With one more star wide receiver, opposing teams would have to play man to man coverage, the Safeties would have to commit to the down field, and the Bronco running game would regain the innitiative. ( Tatem bell is a 6 yard per carrie average guy and Mike Bell is a badass, Cecil Sapp is another damn good player) Our runningbacks are excellent. With a good passing game, the Broncos could run down trhe throats of anyone.

    Shanahan is playing conservative this year because he lost Kubiak to Houston and his pass receivers are average. ( It took Schottenheimer decades to finally beat the Broncos like this) Its like losing a couple of guns on a Manowar battleship, you know what he has got, you just hope you can withstand the onslaught. Kubiak was 4 100 pound parrot guns with case shot. I cryed when he left.

    Their play book reflects the loss of Kubiak's Coaching talent. The NFL is determined by inches and corpoarte memory....................The loss of Kubiak allowed Schottenheimer the win. ( Plumber throwing interceptions didnt help, it was however written in the stars) He has been in the trenches with Cleveland, Kansas City, and San Diego. He finally got his due..............Inches and corporate memory.......... The Steelers won the superbowl because of their team concept, hardwork, corporate memory ,and a new spastic quarterback that no one could figure out. No one can figure out Rivers yet!!! Everyone now has figured out Rothlessburger. ( We should have kicked Pittsburgs ass last year), it was a gift to Betiss) They will figure Rivers out. This is Schottenheimers best shot at the superbowl ever. Meanwhile Plumber and the Broncos will just get better. They wont care if they get figured out, they will just steamrole everyone anyways.Shanahan and the Broncos will always be the best.

    Meanwhile either the pass receivers mentioned above are either to slow to get open, cant catch the ball, or Jake Plumber does not read his field well. Jake only needs just a few more down field, scrimmage (possesion) and across the middle (Macafrey style) opportunities to open up the running game. It seems the tight ends and wide receivers have yet to develop an identity through excellence. Elway had the 3 amigos he could depend on Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson and Ricky Nattiel. He could depend on Rod Smith and Macafrey. Jake can only depend on Javon right now, and to a lesser extent Rod Smith. Last year Ashley Lalee helped with 3rd down conversions because he could catch the ball down field. he saved many a 3rd downs. The others have yet to gain confiidence or an identity. One of them has to step up to the plate now! I was dissapointed when they let Puzier go, he was the first tightend we have had since Macafrey that had good hands and would go across the middle. I had high hopes that Scheffler would be better than he is. A big guy , good hands, who could punish the defense. As it is, he has no identity. When is he going to arrive? Losing Duane Carswell to an accident was a tragedy. he couldnt come back from that. The Broncos need another Duane Carswell. or Shannon Sharpe.

    Javon Walker has the abillity to get open and he can catch the football. When Plumber forces it to the rest of the pass receivers, they either drop the ball or it gets intercepted. Even Payton Manning could do little with this. The pass receivers are not stepping up to the plate, running their routes and getting open. The play book is conservative, and the running game is suffering from this. Rod Smith although a great player, is not getting the numbers he is used to. Look at the histrory of past Broncos or any other NFL team. When the numbers start to drop on seasoned players, they never come back. It happened to Macafrey, Haven Moses, Rylie Odoms, Lyn Swann, Jerry Rice, Randy Moss etc. etc. etc. The Broncos need a first round draft pic Wide receiver or a good free agent. Watch the tapes, the pass receivers are not getting open on zone or man to man defenses.

    Without a passing game, one does not have a running game. Without a running game, one does not have a passing game.

    Plumber is part of the problem . He does not enjoy the synergy of really good pass receivers. Collectively they do not have regular football move behaviors he can vent to. One could say he doesnt know his receivers, and he isnt asking enough of them. Throw the ball to them like Elway did. Elways passes broke thumbs and fingers, but he threw the ball right to them. They caught the ball and their confidence increased. Amother thing!!!! What happened to the shotgun and bootleg? Bootleg right, pump fake , toss off to right etc. The play book is very boring...

    He almost beat the Colts this year, and they smoked the Patriots>>>>>>>>>>His numbers are better than Elways...What else do you want. Maybe we can trade him for Manning or Brady.

    Any NFL team in the league would snatch him up to start in a heart beat. Then he would come back and stomp the Broncos...............

    Shanahan needs the offensive coach to think out of the box that he is in, and play a better play book. I thought the Broncos were holding back their better play book for the end of the season and playoffs. Now I think they have been giving it all they have and offensive coordinator just doesnt get it. Rod Smith needs to step up to the plate and get open. The tight ends need to get open and hold on to the ball. I garrantee if these fellas were operating up to snuff, Plumbers numbers would be much better. Leave Jake alone for a little while. Dont pollute the atmospehere with defeatism and negativety. Be nice and see if things get better. You are disrupting the time, space, continuum. Go Jake ! Own this town!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and watch some Colt tapes and see how Payton does it for the love of pete. And quit throwing interceptions . And yes Plumber does not read the field well. Cutler will be there in time. He will also be armed with several newer pass receivers. The defense needs nothing.
    You are missing one very important point here, and that is the QB in this equasion....how is it that Tom Brady has an almost complete set of new skill players, yet he still is putting up good numbers? Brady seems to have no trouble spreading the balkl around and getting his players imvolved in the Patriot Offense.
    No, Jqake is not getting the ball to the receivers when they are open. I have watched every game at least twice, and there have been multiple times where Jake simply did not see the WR or TE because he does not scan the field and go through his progressions properly. He locks in on his priomary target, usually Javon Walker, and that's it.

    Leave a comment:


  • vicious2500
    replied
    Originally posted by NBudris
    Sorry for just jumping in on this, I am sure you are all having a great logical debate on this.

    But with our tight ends numbers...

    How many droped passes do we have this year?

    I bet it is one of "the" lowest totals for the broncos in a season so far.

    I have not been seeing to much droped passes but our Wide outs stepping up and makeing big plays.

    Marshall looks like he is going to be good...

    the answer to the title about the numbers is mainly because of ball placement and not our players getting open or droping passes
    The majority of the game our TEs are left into block to help seal off the pass rushers from the edge since we have 2 bums out there in the T postions. I find it very odd that with Meadows in we have to leave the TE in to block when he's supposedly better than Foster who didn't give up that many sacks and was coming off one of his best years. When you compound that with the fact that we have a rookie protectin Jakes blind side you TE left in to block more times than not.

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  • vandyman53
    replied
    Originally posted by NBudris
    your right, also with zone blocking scheme like we and atlanta you have an increase in your run effectivness and decrease you pass protection mainly do to size of offensive linemen.

    our pass protection has been doing very well for us this year.

    could it be better? Of course.

    on bright side if we put in 3rd stringers at OL they will be better then vandys

    hint hint
    And Cutler would still be completing passes.

    Leave a comment:


  • vandyman53
    replied
    Originally posted by goucho141
    I think with better coaching, WRs, focus and determination, Jake would become the best in the league.
    Jake has been in the league 10 years now. How much coaching does the fellow need. I hope your last name is Marx for that is a hysterical statement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nick
    replied
    Originally posted by JRWIZ
    This Oline is designed for zone blocking for the run, it is much to light to pass protect consistently.
    your right, also with zone blocking scheme like we and atlanta you have an increase in your run effectivness and decrease you pass protection mainly do to size of offensive linemen.

    our pass protection has been doing very well for us this year.

    could it be better? Of course.

    on bright side if we put in 3rd stringers at OL they will be better then vandys

    hint hint

    Leave a comment:


  • Nick
    replied
    Sorry for just jumping in on this, I am sure you are all having a great logical debate on this.

    But with our tight ends numbers...

    How many droped passes do we have this year?

    I bet it is one of "the" lowest totals for the broncos in a season so far.

    I have not been seeing to much droped passes but our Wide outs stepping up and makeing big plays.

    Marshall looks like he is going to be good...

    the answer to the title about the numbers is mainly because of ball placement and not our players getting open or droping passes

    Leave a comment:


  • gobroncsnv
    replied
    Originally posted by JRWIZ
    This Oline is designed for zone blocking for the run, it is much to light to pass protect consistently.
    Which is why the TE's are having to block. Between Clarence Kay and Sharpe in his prime, I wouldn't rate any of our TE's even close to what Elway had. And I don't know that we'll EVER have as good a line as we had in 97-98.... These guys aren't CLOSE to that. Nor do we have a WR tandem to match Rod in his prime along with EddieMac. Tatum/Mike/Nash/Cobbs compared to TD???? Don't even try that.
    Including QB, our current team is second rate compared to our SB winning teams, with VERY few exceptions.... Including DLine...
    Neil Smith, Alfred Williams, the Tractor, and Tanavasu against the whosit's we have now??? Our LB's are maybe as good, if not a bit better (I liked Mobley alot), but our CB's are def the best we've had. Who wouldn't take Atwater against our current safeties...
    For the most part, we aren't nearly the talent we had back then. And yes, including the QB position.
    I know that this was about the TE's and WR's, but someone mentioned the whole team, so I had to work that topic. I can ramble with the best of 'em.

    Leave a comment:


  • JRWIZ
    replied
    Originally posted by goucho141
    Do you remember when the offense was so weak that Elway was forced to use the shotgun. He was always under intense pressure from the defence. Plumber has one of the best offenses in Bronco history protecting him. He has the best defnce ever keeping him in the game. If they are puting 8 in the box, why doesnt he go to the shotgun for added time to throw.? Let the defences use up energy getting in his face, while he screen passes or throws for yardage. I was surprised that they got rid of Anderson. I felt Tatum was more of a specialty runner. I felt Anderson was the meat and potatoe machine. After Anderson wore down the defence, Tatum would come in and cut another route for big yardage. He is only good for 10 to 15 carries. Then again, the old 40 carries a game is a thing of the past. Cecil Sapp needs to be used more. Amyways>>>> the play book is conservative.
    This Oline is designed for zone blocking for the run, it is much to light to pass protect consistently.

    This best defense is 27th giving up yards!

    Ask mikey he calls the plays!

    About tater he has demonstrated this year he is wearing out after about 10th or more runs the numbers have really went down in YPC.

    The new kid Nash might be the answer at stud buffalo, Mike Bell might be also.

    Leave a comment:


  • TXBRONC
    replied
    Originally posted by goucho141
    I think with better coaching, WRs, focus and determination, Jake would become the best in the league.
    You're saying he has bad coaching and receivers? I don't agree. Also he is a professional if he doesn't have focus and determination after 91/2 seasons in the League I doubt he ever will. Just for the record, I think he has focus and detemination but he's just hasn't been an accurate passer for the vast majority of his career.
    Last edited by TXBRONC; 11-22-2006, 05:17 AM.

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  • goucho141
    replied
    8 in the box/////

    Originally posted by JRWIZ
    Normally I have you on ignore but I wanted to rebut some of this.

    The TE's are being held into block because of the inexperience at OT. I think I noted but could be wrong that the TE was in a pattern only once in the SAN game and that was in the 4th qtr.

    Our #1 RB is not the game breaker like everyone thought him to be. The big numbers he put up were early in the year when he was fresh. He has seemed to have worn down until he was injured.

    I personnaly like Nash the best out of the group and them M Bell. Over what I have seen in the past few games. They seem to run with more authority and don't go down at first contact.
    Do you remember when the offense was so weak that Elway was forced to use the shotgun. He was always under intense pressure from the defence. Plumber has one of the best offenses in Bronco history protecting him. He has the best defnce ever keeping him in the game. If they are puting 8 in the box, why doesnt he go to the shotgun for added time to throw.? Let the defences use up energy getting in his face, while he screen passes or throws for yardage. I was surprised that they got rid of Anderson. I felt Tatum was more of a specialty runner. I felt Anderson was the meat and potatoe machine. After Anderson wore down the defence, Tatum would come in and cut another route for big yardage. He is only good for 10 to 15 carries. Then again, the old 40 carries a game is a thing of the past. Cecil Sapp needs to be used more. Amyways>>>> the play book is conservative.

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  • goucho141
    replied
    Originally posted by jpark31
    The reason he has better number is because the team IS better...For the most part of Elways career he WAS the team...Elway won games with mediocre players on the offense and our defense wasn't that good so he had to win most of his games in the 3rd and 4th quarters coming from behind...

    Plummer has a more complete team around him offensively and defensively and they play like a team. How many fumbles or interceptions has Jake had this year during key possesions? It's quit a few and it is understandable that the fans are upset for just this reason. They should also be upset with receivers that don't catch balls thrown to them though, I don't see that though...
    This is valid. The team is probably the best team they have ever had............

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  • jsoverman
    replied
    ***?

    Am I the only one reading this that realizes that a receiver's completion stats are directly related to the performance of the QB? The receivers are getting open, Plummer can't see past the first and second reads and when he does see an open man he hasn't been on target. Second to last completion percentage in the league, of course the wideouts numbers are suffering.

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  • vandyman53
    replied
    Originally posted by mojo0730
    Well, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your respectful disagreement.

    If you believe this problem is bigger in Denver than anywhere else, you clearly have never been to Pittsburgh or Cleveland or Dallas, just to name a few. Furthermore, there was no quarterback controversy in Denver until we drafted Cutler. That's what happens when you draft an heir apparent in the first round.

    I just think that people act like this has something to do wtih Jake living in the shadow of John Elway, when this is a problem that happens with virtually every team at some point. The only thing that's going to fix it is to cut or trade one of them out of here.
    Everyone wondered why Shanny drafted Cutler when he had a "suitable" quarterback. The cat is out of the bag now.

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  • vandyman53
    replied
    Yup, I remember when the city of Nashville wanted Steve McNair replaced the year they went to the Super Bowl. Then he got hurt a little and wanted him gone again because Neil Odonnell filled in so well.

    It is not just at Denver.

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