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  • Rating the recent past drafts


    1999
    ROUND (SELECTION) PLAYER POSITION COLLEGE
    1 (31) Al Wilson LB Tennessee
    2a (58) Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
    2b (61) Lennie Friedman G Duke
    3a (67) Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
    3b (93) Travis McGriff WR Florida
    4 (127) Olandis Gary RB Georgia
    5a (158) David Bowens DE Western Illinois
    5b (167) Darwin Brown CB Texas Tech
    6a (179) Desmond Clark TE Wake Forest
    6b (204) Chad Plummer WR Cincinnati
    7a (218) Billy Miller WR USC
    7b (238) Justin Swift TE Kansas State


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    2000
    ROUND (SELECTION) PLAYER POSITION COLLEGE
    1 (15) \'Deltha O\'Neal DB California
    2a (40) Ian Gold LB Michigan
    2b (45) Kenoy Kennedy Spotlight FS Arkansas
    3 (70) Chris Cole WR Texas A&M
    4a (101) Jerry Johnson DL Florida State
    4b (112) Cooper Carlisle OL Florida
    5 (154) Muneer Moore WR Richmond
    6 (189) Mike Anderson RB Utah
    7a (214) Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame
    7b (246) Leroy Fields WR Jackson State


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    2001
    ROUND (SELECTION) PLAYER POSITION COLLEGE
    1 (24) Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
    2 (58) Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
    3 (87) Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State
    4a (113) Ben Hamilton C Minnesota
    4b (120) Nick Harris P California
    6 (190) Kevin Kasper WR Iowa

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Considering Shanahan himself claims that the draft is to get a player for 5 years, and that the earlier rounds are easier than later ones to get a player that sticks...

    personal opinion is

    1999 blew... all we ended up with of value is Al Wilson

    2000 is a little better but Gold is gone now and Jarious is ??? MA is the pick of the pack there, and for a 2nd rounder Kennedy is OK but should be a better db IMO.

    2001
    almost 50% here as Hamilton, Hayward are still here! Willie ... well I think we all agree he has been a disappointment...

    Overall I would say that Shanahan seemingly is NOT the drafting genius that some here were claiming....
    Last edited by Road_Apples; 04-28-2004, 12:26 PM.

  • #2
    My point still stands as with what I pasted above. Take a look at the picks- we won't mention the ****load of pro-bowl players that he passed over in his "reaching". His standard is what can you do for 5 years. Even CP only lasted 2 seasons here. In the end what do we end up with on a contributory basis. Early round choices stick around for 3 years because they have so much invested in them. Therefore you need to go further back than that and analyse the draft. If you only end up with a 2 or three players contributing per draft year is this considered "genius" material?
    I think not.
    There are more ridiculous drafting records obviously but come on now, you can't be serious that 2-3 players out your whole draft is being a GENIUS. Good Lord, most of us can pick up a Street& Smiths and plunk your finger down and come up with similar results.

    Who says anything about his coaching ability? I didn't. I was just perusing the draft lists and noticed that a lot of the players that should be here still are no longer around.

    Um, personally I have been a lifetime Broncos fan, so I will pass on your offer to go to KC, thanks.
    Last edited by Road_Apples; 04-28-2004, 12:54 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      There are more than a few teams in the league that would love to have that track record in he draft. Don't forget this is a team that doesn't get to draft that can't miss sure thing like the Chargers do year in year out. How's their draft been lately?

      I see three starting running backs on your list. Two linebackers a safety a few o-lineman and some d-lineman. On a team that continues to win. Plus TD in the FREAKIN 6th round! I would say that Shanahan has done alright for himself at the draft table.

      Comment


      • #4
        In addition, Road Apples, have you compared the draftee retention of other teams? Also, there's very few #1's that currently play for the team that drafted them. The attrition rate very nearly wears on all teams equally. I'm sure there's some Chiefs fans on this board that'll give you a bust or two. I'd gladly take a Middlebrooks or O'neil every few years knowing that a Wilson and a Davis will be in the mix somewhere too.
        Winter is Coming!

        Comment


        • #5
          Agreed they haven't always been in the top 15 picks, but I think we're talking about a "GENIUS" here. This would indicate something very special, something that stnads out far and above from the crowd. Can you honestly say that about his drafting- especially when it close to the first round where there should be fewer questions about the player in mind.

          Also I wasn't including FA and RFA signings, as this is not relevant. Once they play in the NFL they are a known commodity, unlike the draft...
          Last edited by Road_Apples; 04-28-2004, 01:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I know that some people have said that Shanahan's a genius, but the 'drafting genius' part mostly comes from his ability to find late round backs and turn them in to stars. The fact that the rest of the league (especially this year) is now following that same philosophy speaks volumes about Shanahan's drafting insights.

            I'm not too sure if your premise is true in this argument. Some fans have called Shanahan a "drafting genius", but I don't think that's what he's known for nor do most 'experts' refer to him as such. He is 'The Mastermind', and that comes from his ability to script plays and create mismatches in the passing game, and only lately have people started to respect his seemingly continual success at drafting good backs.
            Winter is Coming!

            Comment


            • #7
              I have been a Bronco fan longer than you have been alive in all liklihood ( are you older than 37?) so stuff your attitude bucko. This is a message board, and one would think this would include dissenting opinion regardless of who you are, or what team you support. I didn't see this board as being named the "No dissing anything related to the Bronco's" message board. Be a homer, whatever but cut the crap about being a KC fan. Just because I don't agree that Shanahan has done a decent job drafting, this means I am KC fan? I see.

              Comment


              • #8
                Road apples consider this draft

                1999

                1a Damien Woody 17 center
                1c Andy Katzenmoyer 28 LB
                2a Kevin Faulk 46 RB
                3b Tony George 91 SS
                5 Derrick Fletcher 154 G
                6a Marcus Washington 180 S
                7a Michael Bishop 227 QB
                7b Sean Morey 241 DB


                2000

                2 Adrien Klemm 46 T
                3 J.R. Redmond 76 RB
                4 Greg Randall 127 T
                5a Dave Stachelski 141 TE
                5b Jeff MArriot 161 DE
                6a Antwan Harris 187 S
                6b Tom Brady 199 QB (excellent choice)
                6c David Nugent 201 DE
                7a Casey Tisdale 226 OLB
                7b Patrick Ross 239 FB

                2001

                1 Richard Seymour 6 DL
                2 Mattt Light 48 T
                3 Brock Williams 86 CB
                4a Kenyatta Jones 96 T
                4b Jabari Holloway 119 TE
                5 Hakim Akbar 163 SS
                6a Arthur Love 180 TE
                6b Leonard Myers 200 CB
                7a Owne Pochman 216 K
                7b t.j Turner 239 LB

                2002

                1 Daniel Graham 21 TE
                2 Deion Branch 65 WR
                4a Rohan Davey 117 QB
                4b Jarvis Green 126 DE
                7b David Givens WR


                These are the picks of the Patriots who have won 2 of the last three superbowls. How many of these guys are still on their roster I bet that there is no more than 10. How many of them are pro bowlers.

                I would say that Shanahans draft record is better than this and they are the team to beat today.

                Comment


                • #9
                  come on bad apples

                  nailing shanny for bad play calling or looking too serious at times i could see light in but not knowing how to draft and assemble a team is wrong, period! the guy has put together one of the nfls best records under his tenure and two bowls!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    See there's alittle thing called fareweathered fans. I see your in that group so that makes you way to smart for me. Pal you haven't seen my home so don't make bets you can't win. I have Bronco stuff hanging from back in the 70's so you may not want to go down that road.
                    Excuse me... does owning a pile of old items make you somehow MORE of a Bronco fan than me? Obviously not.
                    You may be a Broncos fan for the whole 37 yrs, but pal I have been a fan my whole life too, and not once, not even when Wade Phillips was the head coach did I question what he did.
                    Well. Just because you are a blind fan also does not mean you are above me. It is necessary to question things. Especially the way that Reeves handled the career of Elway.
                    Do you remember Wade Phillips, do you even know who Dan Reeves, or Joe Collier is.
                    Duh! How childish and ridiculous is this question?
                    Anyhow, to rag on a guy they call the mastermind on a few draft choices is stupid and it shows how inteligent you are of the Broncos.
                    Holy Crap! All I said was that his record is not so bloody Sterling when it comes to drafting. Jesus! get a grip man. You'd think I kidnapped his wife and kids and was threatening him with a Bowie knife.
                    How many SB's have the Broncos gone to with Shanny either being the head coach or the offensive cord. ummmm well I have a answer but I will let the 37 yr old Fareweathered Bronco fan answer that.
                    Another one-upmanship comment. What's with you anyway? Chip on the shoulder getting a bit too heavy? You seem to have some issues to deal with. And just in case you were wondering, it is spelled FAIR WEATHERED FAN, of which yes it is oh so obvious from my comments that I am that for sure- 37 years off and on by the week.
                    BTW that number is 5 in case you have trouble remembering yourself.
                    I would suggest that you stick to the facts and figures instead of personally attacking anyone you disagree with. It demonstrates a fair amount of immaturity and is totally unbecoming of a true Bronco fan. I further suggest that if you like acting that way, I hear the Raiders forum is open for a few more of that type of poster.
                    Last edited by Road_Apples; 04-28-2004, 02:50 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      not once, not even when Wade Phillips was the head coach did I question what he did.
                      Then you aren't very bright! I questioned virtually everything Wade Phillips did and I've been a Broncos fan since 1977.

                      Road_apples is perfectly right. Shanahan's drafting the last few years has been less than stellar. Looking at the list he compiles makes me think it's a little better than I thought, but still not in the "genius" category. No-one seriously thinks Shanahan is draft "genius" anyway. Whatever claim to fame he has is for preparing his players, running an organized team and keeping players focused on winning, hiring and keeping good assistant coaches, coming up with an effective offensive scheme and implementing it, preparing an effective gameday plan and (more often than not) properly executing it. I.E. good coaching year round.

                      I would rate his drafting as mediocre at best. Many high priced free agents have been spectacular disappointments ("pancake boy" being only the latest and most expensive mistake). Some personnel decisions have been highly questionable (Brian Griese come on down). . . . and he sometimes has been slow to recognize failure when it stares him in the face and cut his losses, thus compounding the problem.

                      Those are the breaks. You take the bad with the good. Shanahan was intrumental in winning 2 super-bowls and I hope will soon have another. I'd say we've got about as much chance as anyone else in the AFC except New England this year, so who knows?

                      But draft "genius" he isn't. And you can't honestly rip Road_apples for saying so.
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Come on guys

                        You can criticize the Broncos and still be a fan. There is a difference between being a fan and a blind-fan. There is nothing wrong with doubting some calls, doubting some picks, doubting some moves.....thats what a FAN does. SOME on here ONLY wish to criticize EVERYTHING about ANYTHING.... but Apples hasn't shown that yet. Chill out a lil and just read what he's saying.

                        I don't know if Mike has ever been called a "draft genius," but I would bet that his drafting isn't any worse than anyone else in the league. Take a look at the other teams, and I know that you will find a BUTTLOAD of first round picks on the cutting-room floor. Its silly to make the statement "look at all the good players he passed on." EVERY team in the NFL can say that EVERY year. Not ONE team hasn't passed on good players, or picked up failures. How many passed on Marino? How many passed on Montana? I can go on and on like that. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. Besides, you normally can't see how good a draft was until you look back five years later. Lets look at the 2002 draft. Can we say that Lelie isn't going to be a great pick? Clinton surely turned out for us. So those two picks alone could be worth the WHOLE draft. Mike has made a living from finding Good FA's like Smith and McCaffrey. You can't say that these were "proven" comodities. He has also done a great job of getting quality players in the later rounds. Genius? No. But can you honestly say there is a draft 'genius?'

                        1999
                        ROUND (SELECTION) PLAYER POSITION COLLEGE
                        1 (31) Al Wilson LB Tennessee
                        2a (58) Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
                        4 (127) Olandis Gary RB Georgia
                        5a (158) David Bowens DE Western Illinois
                        6a (179) Desmond Clark TE Wake Forest


                        is this a bad draft?? Al was a pro-bowler, Monte is still playing in the league, Gary was a 1300+ rusher and "Offensive Rookie of the Year" runner up... Bowens is still a starter in the league, and Clark went to the Pro-Bowl for us


                        2000
                        ROUND (SELECTION) PLAYER POSITION COLLEGE
                        1 (15) 'Deltha O'Neal DB California
                        2a (40) Ian Gold LB Michigan
                        2b (45) Kenoy Kennedy Spotlight FS Arkansas
                        6 (189) Mike Anderson RB Utah
                        7a (214) Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame


                        This wasn't a great draft. BUT. We did have three Pro-Bowlers out of it. Were they perenial Pro-Bowlers? nope. But we can't help that Gold chose to put his value too high. We were able to get a couple of good years from O'neal, and then traded him to move up in the draft. Kenoy is still a starter.. Mike Anderson was "Offensive Rookie of the Year" and a pro-bowler, and is still as starter. Jarious. Well.. he was on the roster for a while. Why I don't know.

                        2001
                        ROUND (SELECTION) PLAYER POSITION COLLEGE
                        1 (24) Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
                        2 (58) Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
                        3 (87) Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State
                        4a (113) Ben Hamilton C Minnesota
                        4b (120) Nick Harris P California
                        6 (190) Kevin Kasper WR Iowa


                        This wasn't so good. Willie didn't turn out to be a 1st round selection value...but Shanahan DID say that he was very pleased with how Willie produced last season. Saying it was his first year without injury, and really stepped it up. So at least he's giving some contribution to the team. Hayward is the other one that seemed to at least help a bit.
                        Last edited by Ravage!!!; 04-28-2004, 06:04 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You can criticize the Broncos and still be a fan. There is a difference between being a fan and a blind-fan. There is nothing wrong with doubting some calls, doubting some picks, doubting some moves.....thats what a FAN does. SOME on here ONLY wish to criticize EVERYTHING about ANYTHING.... but Apples hasn't shown that yet. Chill out a lil and just read what he's saying.
                          THANK YOU! Again THANK YOU! It is appreciated.
                          Its silly to make the statement "look at all the good players he passed on."
                          I suppose I was making a snide one there, for that I can apologise. That statement I admit was probably best left out yett it does bug me at times when he "reaches" for a player and passes over some obvious talent that stays long term in the NFL. Ashley Lelie is one that is coming to the top of mind at the moment. Of course he hasn't produced, but he MAY still so the jury is still out on him. Most of us shook our heads at that pick.
                          Last edited by Road_Apples; 04-28-2004, 06:41 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Funny. I didn't shake My head to this pick at all. Not only did I get to watch him once, but it was EXACTLY the pick that most of the 'mocks' picked us to take. So I don't think it was shocking or a reach at all. Despite him having some butterfingers last season, Lelie caught MORE passes than any other WR drafted in his class last year. So even though it seemed to be a disappointment, it was better than anyone else at his same experience level.

                            Plus... EVERY 1st round pick is "obvious" talent. Otherwise teams wouldn't take them in the first round at all. How many of those 1st round picks turn out to be busts? What percentage of players do you think last that are drafted in the first round? Like I said. There is not ONE team in the NFL that can't look back and see the talent that they passed on, and wished they took. How many teams passed on Randy Moss? How many passed on Ray Lewis? If it was sooo easy and talent was SO obvious without the benefit of hindsight, no teams would have 1st round busts.

                            Its so easy for us, isn't it? To sit home and just watch... b!tching at who we took, who we didn't take, who we should have taken. After all... WE don't have anything to lose if we are wrong. Think about this years draft. If Mike was right with Williams and Bell...how many people ,on this board alone, are going to be right? How many are going to be wrong? If Williams and Bell fail (or one), how many are going to come out and say "I told you so"? There is always so many people that know more than the coach..but their 'mispicks' don't seem to cost them a dime, or give them any bad press. They just seem to forget that they were wrong. Its EASY to say that 'this guy will fail' (not quoting you or anything, just stating), because the ODDS are with the negative person. More players fail than players succeed. So when I see some of the complete negative people on the boards.. they don't impress Me when they get a 'negative' prediction correct. They are just playing the odds.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              And I am also playing Devil's Advocate here to a degree, but that is what these boards are for. Shanahan frankly has done an admittedly much better job than Reeves as I remember constantly shaking my head at some of those moves (Ted Gregory example).
                              Plus... EVERY 1st round pick is "obvious" talent. Otherwise teams wouldn't take them in the first round at all.
                              My above example is adequate. Gregory was nowhere on the radar. Same thing for Dan Williams.

                              A part of drafting and retaining the players developing them into bona-fide NFL players also requires knowing how a player fits into a particular system. A given player in the wrong system can ruin a career, and yes Shanahan has done wonders with quite a few of them. I suspect a large quantity of failed draft choices fall into this category.

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