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  • #16
    I don't think Berry succeeded due to Pryce. I mean, how many Defensive Lineman have we had NOT succeed playing by Trevor's side? A ton. Our defensive line got worse, there is no doubt. Plus remember that Darrius Holland and Mario Fetafehi both had what experts call "career years" last year and probably wont repeat. Chad Eaton isnt even starting in NFL Europe atm, and we are going to have to largely depend on our late round DL picks from last draft to step up. Elliss hasnt had a good year since 2000 and Raylee is 34 and injury prone. I'd hold my breath for a big year out of Johnson before Elliss anyday. Marco Coleman is more a coach then player and is an average wave player at best now that he's 40ish.

    These questions at D-line directly effect our linebackers. If they don't have as good a year collectively as last year, then our linebackers get worse due to being blocked and shielded from ball carriers. Both Al Wilson and DJ Williams have problems avoiding blockers when chasing down the ball carrier. Ian Gold was the best at avoiding them, but he's gone now. We also really need a LB to step up in pass coverage. Gold was great at that aspect, but our current players are not so hot . Indy took advantage of that with the crossing patterns during that playoff embarassment.

    We are trying to improve the defense from the secondary down, which is directly opposite as to how most NFL teams do it. We will have to see how it works out.

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    • #17
      Bronxsx3

      *chuckles*.. you went into more depth.. which I can do to, but basically you said we increased at DB, Decreased in RB, Decreased(or stayed the same) at DL, and slightly decreased in LB... sounds familiar, just in longer form.

      I wasn't counting the 'injuries' we had LAST year as far as INCREASING or DECREASING our team this year. I mean, I counted the injury that might very well take Mobley out of our lineup, but as far as the ones that are coming back and playing for us, I'm looking at the TALENT on the starting team. You can't say that since we have players BACK in the lineup that were OUT for the playoff game, thats not making any offseason move that INCREASED anything.

      "...1. DB. You said "we increased at DB" but I don't think you fully appreciate how big an increase we have performed at DB. Champ Bailey could revolutionize a defense that was the top 5 in the NFL in 2003..."

      Actually, I don't. I DO appreciate what a good corner can do for a defense. I know that by having him lock down on a #1 WR, it can open up a TON of things for your defense. I didn't elaborate at all on anything, I just said it Got Better.. which it did. Despite our #5 ranking, we were NOT a #5 defensive team.

      Champ improved the defensive backfield on one side of the field. Is that going to have a trickle down effect? Of course. Any time you add a player that is one of the top at his position, it has a trickle down effect. Does it make Walls better?? No. It might give him help, it might match him up with different Wrs, but it doesn't make HIS ability better? No.

      "...We finished last year with only one healthy safety and instead now have awesome depth at the position while starting a perenial pro bowler who, trust me, adds a lot more then leadership for that $3 million Pat is paying him..."

      Again, you are referring to injuries that we had during the year. Getting those players back doesn't mean we increased anything in the offseason. I'm strictly talking about added personel. Yes, now we have more depth with a proven veteran for leadership.

      "...Actually, if you think about it, our #1, #2 and #3 cornerbacks improved (gotta love our nickle D!) and we see improvement at one of the safety positions while adding a starter-calibur back-up..."

      No. Our #2 and #3 corners didn't improve, they changed positions. Yes, again....its a trickle down effect,but thats the same thing for the Redskins. Like I said, we increased our DBs.

      "...2. LB.You talk about the loss of Mobley and Gold but don't forget we were playing without those guys for most of the second half last year. Mobley is not lost yet and we have a healthy second-round pick from the previous season. Add in the addition of Williams and more experience for our starters from last year who were kinda thrown into the fray last second and you are going to see a lot of improvement from last year's playoff squad in this area..."

      Here we go again. Ok. Are the back-ups to Mobley and Gold as GOOD and Mobley and Gold? No, they are not. IF we lose Mobley, then we are talking about missing a PRO-BOWL linebacker. Losing Ian, is losing another top quality LB. I don't care if the guys coming in got experience, they STILL are not AS good (yet) as the players that were in front of them. Williams has ALLLL the tools to be excellent, and I feel he will grow to be a great LB for us, but he WILL have his growing pains, and we HAVE dropped to using the DEPTH as our Starters. Thats a DECREASE no matter how you try to put it.

      "...4. Running back. I see a slight decrease in this area. Portis averaged 5.5 yards a carry. That's going to be near impossible to replace, even if we had not lost the best offensive line coach we've ever had. I really think we have great depth at RB with a nice mix of speed, talent, youth and experience. Still, a decrease is my prediction here..."

      Like I said.. a decrease. But even if Portis doesn't produce the same numbers as he did here, he is STILL an improvement over what they had their before. Doesn't MATTER if he produces the SAME results as here, he is STILL better than what Washington had before the trade, THUS, its and IMPROVEMENT.

      "...As for the comparison to Redskins: I don't like the addition of Springs and I think for this season at least we will get better production from Lynch then they will get from their first round rookie Taylor. Portis should do well but don't look for him to average more than 5 ypc like he did in Denver. Do you think their QB will stay healthy? I don't. Finally, Gibbs was a great coach... 10 years ago. Does that mean he won't succeed today? Nope. Does it mean he has a good chance of not succeeding in today's game? Oh yeah..."

      Springs was a good addition to their team. How could you say otherwise? He's not as good as Bailey, but he's a GOOD defensive back.. thats not getting BETTER than Bailey, but its narrowing the gap of loss. You think we will get MORE production from Lynch than they will from Taylor. Thats relative. Our safeties weren't BAD to begin with. Washington's were. Taylor is an immediate starter, and an immediate impact player. I didn't think Roy Williams would help out Dallas his rookie season that much either, I was wrong. So how much Lynch helps Denver, and how much Taylor helps Washington are two different things. Its an IMPROVEMENT on the Redskins. Especially since this guy was considered to be one of the top 3 players in the draft to make a first year impact (gamble and winslow being the other two).

      Do I think their QB will stay healthy?? DO I wonder if ours will? How many QBs in the last 5 years have gone the entire season without missing a game due to injury?? Very few. The question is, do I think he is an IMPROVEMENT over the players they had there BEFORE the pick-up. YES.. I do. Thats an IMPROVEMENT over their previous roster.

      You evaluation of Gibbs is off. I don't care if he hasn't been coaching in the NFL for 10 years. The game has NOT changed that much. This guy is a HoF COACh... and he's a HoF coach for a REASON, he KNOWS football. Everyone said the SAME thing about Vermeil, and he was out of the game longer than Gibbs was. What did Vermeil do? He came back into the league and won a Super Bowl in three years, then took the Chiefs to a 13-3 record. Don't try to suggest to me that their (Chiefs) improvement doesn't have to do with coaching. Gibbs IS a winner. Besides that, he is DEFINATLY an IMPROVEMENT over Spurrier. So again. IT doesn't matter if he's as good as he used to be, because he's a better coach than Steve.. thats an IMPROVEMENT.


      I think the off-season for the Broncos has been a good one. It was a move to improve the defense and I think we did that to a degree. If we DON'T lose Mobley, then it will be a much better improvement...if we did lose John, then the improvement will still be there, and we will survive with the LBs we have, but they won't be AS good. The movements for the Redskins were for the offensive side of the ball. QB, RB, WR (although thrash is more for depth than anything, he's not as good as the ones they have there)... then they went with a SOLID Defensive safety in their draft.

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      • #18
        DAMNIT>.. I have to stop leaving the screen and coming back, I type WAY tooo oooo much!!!

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        • #19
          We are trying to improve the defense from the secondary down, which is directly opposite as to how most NFL teams do it. We will have to see how it works out.


          I disagree with that.... *shrugs*

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Ravage!!!
            We are trying to improve the defense from the secondary down, which is directly opposite as to how most NFL teams do it. We will have to see how it works out.


            I disagree with that.... *shrugs*
            You say that you only count last season's opening day roster but then you say:

            It was a move to improve the defense and I think we did that to a degree. If we DON'T lose Mobley, then it will be a much better improvement
            How can a healthy Mobley in 2004 be an improvement over a healthy Mobley in 2003?

            The reason I took the approach that I did is I said "ok, here we have our playoff team from the end of last year, what have we done to make it go further in the playoffs."

            I really don't care about last year's opening day roster. I want to see what Shanahan has done to take that first round loser into a Superbowl winner. So I compared those two. A perfectly valid place to start, as was were you started.

            I disagree with a lot of what you said but you make good points and you articulate them well. I COULD do WITHOUT you CAPPING every OTHER word, but hey, that's just me

            Call it what you want, trickle down effect, player's getting better, but the bottom line is that Our #1, #2 and #3 corners are all better. Hell, last year our #3 corner was pretty below average! I also look forward to another year of experience with Walls and Herndon. Yes, not an "addition" in the offseason but I am hoping for some major improvement from each.

            Mostly I disagree that Springs and Brunnell are good additions. They look like the usual high priced (and injury proned) vets that Washington usually fails with. Yes every player CAN get hurt, but look at Plummer's injury history vs Brunnells. Night and Day. Of course now that I said that....

            KNOCK ON WOOD KNOCK ON WOOD

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mat'hir Uth Gan

              I don't think Berry succeeded due to Pryce. I mean, how many Defensive Lineman have we had NOT succeed playing by Trevor's side? A ton. Our defensive line got worse, there is no doubt. Plus remember that Darrius Holland and Mario Fetafehi both had what experts call "career years" last year and probably wont repeat.
              I disagree with you. Yes, there have been many a DL go through denver without Berry's stats, but NOT under Coyer. He evidently made the necessary changes to schemes, coverages to allow the ends to get to the qb.....something his predecessors couldn't do. Don't forget we have a player that was 'even' with him coming out of training camp and had damn near the same number of sacks in considerably less playing time. Not to mention, younger.
              Plus, how can anybody say that a player has a 'career year'? That makes no sense. Does that mean that since KC did so good last year, that they won't repeat? I hope so, but can't rule it out.
              Besides, I would never say Holland was that good anyways.

              Chad Eaton isnt even starting in NFL Europe atm, and we are going to have to largely depend on our late round DL picks from last draft to step up. Elliss hasnt had a good year since 2000 and Raylee is 34 and injury prone. I'd hold my breath for a big year out of Johnson before Elliss anyday. Marco Coleman is more a coach then player and is an average wave player at best now that he's 40ish.
              Since I know nothing about Eaton other than what I read here, I'll hold judgement, but others have said he is doing an admirable job at taking up space and has a good push. Not to mention starting the last two games. Sounds to me like a promising player. As far as Elliss and Johnson, yes, both are getting close to my age, but have been consistent players their entire careers. That's not to say it's still a given, but I'd venture to say that they can still carry the load with our defensive style of line substituting.
              Coleman? I could think of worse 'coaches' to have around our youngsters.

              These questions at D-line directly effect our linebackers. If they don't have as good a year collectively as last year, then our linebackers get worse due to being blocked and shielded from ball carriers. Both Al Wilson and DJ Williams have problems avoiding blockers when chasing down the ball carrier. Ian Gold was the best at avoiding them, but he's gone now. We also really need a LB to step up in pass coverage. Gold was great at that aspect, but our current players are not so hot . Indy took advantage of that with the crossing patterns during that playoff embarassment.
              I can see from your post that you really liked Gold. Seeings how he wasn't exactly a stallworth at the position, you must have watched him more than I did. I do, though, know that he wasn't very good at shaking blockers or form tackling. I remember plenty of times when rb's had open lanes because he was under a lineman, grasping at air as they ran by or simply hitting them and bouncing off of them. I guess I'm not that enthralled with him.

              We are trying to improve the defense from the secondary down, which is directly opposite as to how most NFL teams do it. We will have to see how it works out.
              So here, I take it, is where you repeat yourself in the fact that the additions to the D line weren't an improvement. To this, there are two directions to be had....
              One, is that if you improve your secondary, it actually CAN have an effect on the D line - by giving them more time to get to the qb.
              The other, is by improving your D line, and the amount of pressure that is applied to the qb, your secondary won't have to cover as long, thus improving their end play.
              Either way, you still CAN get the same result - - - pressure on the qb, resulting in incompletions, sacks, hurries and/or interceptions.

              I still think our top 5 defensive rating last year was all smoke and mirrors. Playing the AFC West last year REALLY squewed it one way.
              We seemed to hold our own against the run, but once another team was able to establish it, we would bite on play action and get burned by the pass. If we can shut down the run, and I mean shut it down, the rest of the D should fall into place. Hopefully, with our IR players and this years additions, they can do just that.
              "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
              tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
              men."

              -- Samuel Adams

              sigpicJacks RULE!!!!!!

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              • #22
                "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
                tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
                men."

                -- Samuel Adams

                sigpicJacks RULE!!!!!!

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                • #23
                  I thought Denver's d-line was great last season....

                  Even losing Berry will not be that bad because Hayward was emerging himself and he only played on 3rd downs!


                  Have a question for me? "Ask AO" A Non-Feedback Thread. You'll be glad you did!

                  2003, 2009 Fantasy League Champion!
                  2006, 2010 Fantasy League Runner-up

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                  • #24
                    I agree. Plus with the additions, we'll be just fine. Its not like you can get to the qb EVERY play......
                    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
                    tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
                    men."

                    -- Samuel Adams

                    sigpicJacks RULE!!!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      How can a healthy Mobley in 2004 be an improvement over a healthy Mobley in 2003?

                      I don't know what you are asking, but you missed the boat on My statement. I'm saying that a HEALTHY Mobley is making the other moves a bigger improvement than not having Mobley this season. Losing Mobley, due to injury, is a decrease this offseason, and will take depth from our team.

                      The reason I took the approach that I did is I said "ok, here we have our playoff team from the end of last year, what have we done to make it go further in the playoffs."

                      The problem with that is that some of the people starting in the playoff game last season, are NOT starters on the team. I have to go by who is considered a starter, and who was on the team last year that will STILL be starting this year. I can't consider looking at team that had injuries, and thinking that the starters back in the lineup is an Offseason improvement.

                      I also look forward to another year of experience with Walls and Herndon. Yes, not an "addition" in the offseason but I am hoping for some major improvement from each.

                      Like you said, this can't be counted as an offseason improvement. If all else is equal, you can count on improvement from every player that has played. So the offensive players that Walls played against improved as well. I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't relate to the discussion of offseason improvements.

                      Mostly I disagree that Springs and Brunnell are good additions. They look like the usual high priced (and injury proned) vets that Washington usually fails with.

                      Well, since they lost Bailey, adding Springs IS a good addition to fill that hole as best it could be filled. As far as Brunell goes.. who was the Redskins starter again?? Brunell isn't his '96 form, but so what. Gibbs won Super Bowls with Mark Rypien and Doug Williams. Neither one of these ever had the skills that Brunell has. So, the past 'high priced' FA's that past Redskin coaches picked up, doesn't matter to ones that Gibbs picks up.

                      I COULD do WITHOUT you CAPPING every OTHER word, but hey, that's just me

                      I ONLY cap the words I'm stressing in sentence.. as though I was talking to you and STRESSING the words as I spoke. To be honest, I don't care if you like my typing style, but hey, thats just me.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                        I don't know what you are asking, but you missed the boat on My statement. I'm saying that a HEALTHY Mobley is making the other moves a bigger improvement than not having Mobley this season. Losing Mobley, due to injury, is a decrease this offseason, and will take depth from our team.

                        The problem with that is that some of the people starting in the playoff game last season, are NOT starters on the team. I have to go by who is considered a starter, and who was on the team last year that will STILL be starting this year. I can't consider looking at team that had injuries, and thinking that the starters back in the lineup is an Offseason improvement.

                        Like you said, this can't be counted as an offseason improvement. If all else is equal, you can count on improvement from every player that has played. So the offensive players that Walls played against improved as well. I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't relate to the discussion of offseason improvements.

                        Well, since they lost Bailey, adding Springs IS a good addition to fill that hole as best it could be filled. As far as Brunell goes.. who was the Redskins starter again?? Brunell isn't his '96 form, but so what. Gibbs won Super Bowls with Mark Rypien and Doug Williams. Neither one of these ever had the skills that Brunell has. So, the past 'high priced' FA's that past Redskin coaches picked up, doesn't matter to ones that Gibbs picks up.

                        I ONLY cap the words I'm stressing in sentence.. as though I was talking to you and STRESSING the words as I spoke. To be honest, I don't care if you like my typing style, but hey, thats just me. [/B]
                        Just annoying in your post you caped like 35% of the words. When you stress every other word it loses the effect of stressing it!

                        I didn't miss the point of your statement. You got on my for comparing this year's team to last year's playoff team, then you said having Mobley back was an improvement which goes against what you were saying before about compairing it to the previous year's starters. Mobley is not an improvement over Mobley.

                        And if you are saying that Denver needed improvement from the team they had last year to win the Superbowl this year then comparing them to the team that started last season is silly. Compare them to the team that was not good enough to beat Indianapolis and then ask "are we good enough now."

                        For all you know that team that started last season WAS good enough and we don't need any improvement in the offseason. Maybe a healthy Mobley, Gold, Herndon, etc. would have been enough to win it all.

                        What we do know is that team that lost to Indy was not good enough to win a SB. So it seems like the most logical starting point to see if we are have inproved sufficiently for this coming season. Which I think we have btw.

                        Washington may be improved but clearly that isn't saying very much. Everyone agrees with that (they did pick in the top 5 of this years draft afterall). I say they still suck and don't win 10 games for sure. If they go 9-7 I think that would an exceptionally good season for them.
                        Last edited by broncsx3; 05-12-2004, 05:15 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Mobley is not an improvement over Mobley.

                          Nope. You still missed the point.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ravage!!!
                            Mobley is not an improvement over Mobley.

                            Nope. You still missed the point.
                            Try and keep up man...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              quote by broncsx3
                              So it seems like the most logical starting point to see if we are have inproved sufficiently for this coming season.
                              wow.....you lost me at hello....
                              "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
                              tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of
                              men."

                              -- Samuel Adams

                              sigpicJacks RULE!!!!!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                *laughs*.. heeheh... want Me to help you decipher that mess? *getting out my decoder ring*

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