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  • #31
    I stand by what I said I think Pat needs to pay for this Dismal Offense.

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    • #32
      IMO firing Shurmur now or at the end of the season signals giving up on the investment in Lock. You can't expect growth or progress when it's a new system every year.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post

        It should also be noted that part of the reason Scangarello was let go was because allegedly Fangio didn't think he was aggressive enough in terms of downfield throws.
        I do think we should put pressure on the deep game to make the defense defend that ... but there is a fine balance between being fake and messing up the offense and actually successfully putting a legit threat to the defense.

        If we can not make first downs it really does not matter if we have a deep threat or not.
        Lets Ride!

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        • #34
          I have seen some of these comments of late....

          "The way these games go, I feel like the first half is what the Broncos' planned to do, and the second half is what Drew Lock wants to do. Just conjecture, but that appears to be what's happening. Maybe just let Drew Lock be Drew Lock, and run the offense he likes."

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          • #35
            I'd say it depends on how things end. It's not like we had a traditional offseason, and you do need consistency for young players. So maybe it would be too soon to call it's quits on Pat, even though I think he's the most overhyped coordinator we've seen. His history isn't good, he has only had 2 or 3 top 10 offenses in his history being in charge of calling an offense or being in charge of a QB.
            With that said, maybe things will be different by the end of the season, and maybe things will be different with a traditional NFL offseason and without the injuries we have on offense.
            sigpic
            Adopted Broncos:
            EmmanuelSanders

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            • #36
              Originally posted by atwaterandstir View Post
              Shurmurs offense is a vertical offense and we have some guys that could be deadly in that offense. The problem is the accuracy of the guy throwing it.
              Lock loves the vertical game, Shurmur loves the vertical play calls....it's a match made in heaven. Except Drew Lock is simply not making the throws. They are perfect for each other if Lock can find some touch. Both Lock and Shurmur are figuring out this middle ground, for now. There is no shame in that.
              But we don't need to fire the guy who can-and desperately wants-to exploit the talents we have on offense. Players like Fant, Jeudy and Hamler and their development in Shurmurs offense are every bit as important. These guys are locked up starters for years to come.
              I disagree that our players fit a vertical offense. Lock has a big arm but the line can’t protect long enough to let things develop. Jeudy and Hamler are fast but I feel there better suited in open space creating YAC rather than beating someone over the top. Fant is fast but that doesn’t matter much outside of an occasional lapse in cover 2. The short to intermediate game is where I think we should be targeting.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ozzies94ta View Post
                When an OC creates a playbook and schemes... do coaches or anyone look it over and critique it?

                Reason I ask is every game this year with Lock at the helm, if it's 3rd and 12 or longer, the play called is ALWAYS a 3-4yrd dump off that has resulted in ZERO first downs.

                You can be the best most creative writer in history, but you still need an editor as not everything "fits" and right now our OC's playbook NEEDS an editor.
                When it’s 3rd and long like, defenses are basically sitting at the sticks or you’ll have a blitz to make sure the ball comes out quick and short. So many times the dump off is the only thing open and you have to rely on the WR to create that yardage. I think we’d be better served to have some block and late release action from our RBs/TEs because sometimes the defense will lose track of them.

                Lock desperately needs a screen game, but our linemen are terrible at it. TE screens seem to be more effective for us because the linemen don’t have to release as far.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post

                  I disagree that our players fit a vertical offense. Lock has a big arm but the line can’t protect long enough to let things develop. Jeudy and Hamler are fast but I feel there better suited in open space creating YAC rather than beating someone over the top. Fant is fast but that doesn’t matter much outside of an occasional lapse in cover 2. The short to intermediate game is where I think we should be targeting.
                  Very few truly "vertical offenses" have succeeded in the NFL.

                  Probably two offenses that maybe come to mind are the Rams greatest show on turf and the Pats record setting team that went 18-0 before losing the Super Bowl.

                  Those offenses...while really good at the deep game....had amazing success with the RBs (running and/or pass catching) and short-med pass catching.

                  The truly vertical offenses that has success in the regular season got exposed in the playoffs. Need to be better at getting first downs than getting deep passes complete. I am not sure if Shurmur understands this.
                  Lets Ride!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
                    We have to keep this coaching staff and all of the players for two full seasons. We can't keep firing and Yelling to fire and replace everybody after 6 to 8 games. Bad managers want to fire people all the time, good managers try to get the best out of mediocre help, or get the most out of current personal. I don't think we have a mediocre staff or players, but I think we have to give this team a chance to get it together. (No firing anybody.)
                    JMHO
                    I agree they need to keep the staff intact for another season for two reasons: 1. We need players to actually develop in a system to see what they have. 2. If you keep firing coaches (whether it's HCs or coordinators) every 1 to 2 seasons you quickly run out of coaches that will be willing to be a part of your team.

                    The only exception to keeping the coaching staff intact is that I would replace Tom McMahon. He's had 3 years and the Special Teams have been poor in each of the three seasons. Currently they're ranked 26th in the league, dead last in kickoff coverage and 3rd last in punt coverage. Lasy year they finished 24th overall in the league, 7th worst in kickoff coverage, 3rd worst in punt coverage. In 2018 they finished 31st overall in the league, a "respectable" 20th in kickoff coverage and 5th worst in punt coverage.

                    Covering kicks is the most important aspect of Special Teams, you need to actually coach players and can't just rely on trying to get touchbacks and force fair catches.

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                    • #40
                      It would be nice to have a winning streak now!
                      (Winning fixes a lot stuff.)

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
                        It would be nice to have a winning streak now!
                        (Winning fixes a lot stuff.)

                        Would be nice, but I just don’t see it happening. I hate being negative, but look at the remaining schedule, it’s about as brutal as possible. Yes, anything is possible, but with all the injuries, a defense that’s falling apart, and an offense that struggles to even get first downs, unless things drastically change, don’t expect much.

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                        • #42
                          I strongly believe several of Denver's problems will be solved once its OL is solidified.

                          At this point, I'd be fine with drafting 3 offensive tackles and 2 interior linemen.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mozzerpete View Post
                            I strongly believe several of Denver's problems will be solved once its OL is solidified.

                            At this point, I'd be fine with drafting 3 offensive tackles and 2 interior linemen.

                            I am all for keeping coach Fangio however his OC hire of Pat was just plain and simple a bad choice. Like I said Pat cannot call a game to save his life its over for him I can call a better game than him and I am just a fan. Pat is clueless when the run game is working he just stops using it plus the fact that we all know Phillip should be starting as he is the spark plug 🔌 to our offense however they continue to plod out Melvin Gordon who’s signing should of never happen since all he does is Fumble the ball over and over just plain and simple sickening. When it is 3rd and 3 instead of trying to pick up the 1st down to build confidence in the offense he will dial up a 40 yard Bomb 💣 that will never be completed so therefore causing another 3 n out and wearing out out Good Defense. Its over for Pat unless he can change and he will not so yeah good luck to us fans who have to watch this lame offense. While we are at it Denver also needs to fire the Special Teams Coach 2 Tom.
                            Last edited by DENVERSB50CHAMP; 11-14-2020, 12:26 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post


                              I am all for keeping coach Fangio however his OC hire of Pat was just plain and simple a bad choice. Like I said Pat cannot call a game to save his life its over for him I can call a better game than him and I am just a fan. Pat is clueless when the run game is working he just stops using it plus the fact that we all know Phillip should be starting as he is the spark plug 🔌 to our offense however they continue to plod out Melvin Gordon who’s signing should of never happen since all he does is Fumble the ball over and over just plain and simple sickening. When it is 3rd and 3 instead of trying to pick up the 1st down to build confidence in the offense he will dial up a 40 yard Bomb 💣 that will never be completed so therefore causing another 3 n out and wearing out out Good Defense. Its over for Pat unless he can change and he will not so yeah good luck to us fans who have to watch this lame offense. While we are at it Denver also needs to fire the Special Teams Coach 2 Tom.
                              Number 1, you could not call better plays. It's not just as easy as calling play X and it'll work because it's the right call. There's two teams on the field, and often times you may have called a great play, but the defense just happened to call the right defense for that play. Or your players didn't execute the play properly. Or a player on the other team just made a great play. Sometimes you call something all game just to set up another play offs of it, only to have the team not bite when you try to call that play you've setup. Sure he needs to even out his calls, but the players (especially the QB) need to execute things much better.

                              2. He likely didn't call a 40 yard bomb on 3rd and short, but he called a layered pass play (almost every single pass play is layered with routes in at different depths, many times within the same viewing window for the QB) and the QB decided to take a shot because he thought he had something or liked the matchup, or just wanted a big play. Or, and I'm just thinking outside the box here) the defense knew that you needed a small gain and went 8 in the box with a cover 1 or 0 shell behind it, which would dictate that the QB should take that deep shot.

                              3. Lindsay has some great runs and runs hard, he should get more playing time. But the "Melvin Gordon fumbles over and over" line is ridiculous hyperbole, he's fumbled twice this season, once against Tennessee and once against KC (he was charged for 2 against KC, but I refuse to blame him solely for the fumble on the flea flicker, that was a bad play call, especially in that weather. 2 fumbles on 106 touches isn't that bad. But that aside, the reason Gordon plays more than Lindsay is because he catches the ball better and is better in pass protection.

                              It's easy to blame Pat Shurmer, he's the current OC, but this offense has been pretty bad since halfway through 2014. This has been going on way longer than him, and is going to take time to correct, especially with no offseason or preseason. Most expected a bad offense early that should get better later in the season, why don't we let him have the full 16 games before we automatically want him fired? Also I think people are quick to forget just how truly awful the offense was last year under Scangarello. Where the only run play called seemed to be Stretch Right. And that was behind Denver's worst run blocking o-lineman. Incidentally the team was 3rd in the league when running over the LT last season, but Scangarello never seemed to call that. Oh and lets not forget the multiple times he called TE sweeps, which he brought from San Fran but changed the blocking on to ensure the play wouldn't work.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by CanDB View Post
                                I have seen some of these comments of late....

                                "The way these games go, I feel like the first half is what the Broncos' planned to do, and the second half is what Drew Lock wants to do. Just conjecture, but that appears to be what's happening. Maybe just let Drew Lock be Drew Lock, and run the offense he likes."
                                OR the opposition takes their foot off the gas a little bit and it allows Lock to make some plays. Against ATL his biggest plays late came when the Falcons backed off their pressure looks and allowed him a clearer look. When they start dealing up the pressure, and pressure looks (like they had early in the game) Lock started to struggle again.

                                Drew Lock has been bad this year. They can call that absolute perfect play at the exact perfect time, but if the QB doesn't get proper pre and post snap reads, or he goes to the wrong read too quickly, or he gets nervous and bails out of the pocket too soon (all of which happened in the first half of each of the last two games) then the play won't succeed.

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