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  • I hope we sit Lock against the Dolphins.

    He's clearly not healthy, and has not played well / regressed.

    Playing the Dolphins - winners of five straight, who have a defense who is great at getting sacks is a recipe for disaster with Lock out there.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by listopencil View Post


      As we have reached this board's version of Godwin's Law there is no reason to continue this discussion.
      The Cancel Culture (and self righteousness) is strong in this one! When we discuss what we expect from a young QB under Elway's regime, it is kind of relevant to discuss the young QBs we have had. No one when Lock came out thought that he was in the same league as Elway was coming out - hence the reason that he was a 2nd round pick.

      You might have all sorts of negative emotions towards certain subjects and players, but then discussing things is what a board like this is about.

      SInce Elway retired, Griese had one good year behind a pretty special offense, Plummer had a fantastic run, Cutler came in with high hopes of being the next Elway and failed massively at even matching Griese and Plummer. Orton came in and looked good but like Flacco played pretty loosing football.

      Where Tebow's and Lock's situations are extremely similar is that they both took over the team at a time when they had done a lot of losing. Both did not have proper off seasons and while Lock had full support and TT didn't they both went through less than ideal off seasons.

      Now Lock has started 12 games and very few fans see him as the future of the Broncos, and he seems to not learn and to regress. 12 games into Tebow's Denver career we were playoff bound and had just completed a 6 game winning streak where our young QB had returned the Mile High Magic. The 12th game was the loss to the consensus best team in the NFL, in a game where the start looked like our offense would dominate the Patriots until Willis McGahee went down. This board at the time had 10 times the activity with fans being estatic about a young QB with a lot of flaws but an innate ability to put the team on his back when needed - much like his boss did over 16 years in Denver.

      As pretty as some of the passes Lock makes are he is simply not accurate enough to attempt the passes that he gets intercepted, where Tebow had the maturity to only try risky passes when it was win or go home, and where Lock throws a 30 yard inaccurate pass into tripple coverage, Tebow threw them against single coverage and where if the reciever could not catch it the pass would be incomplete.

      While Tebow is the only Broncos drafted QB to ever give us anything in the playoffs, Elway has also told us that the minimum we should expect is that this team with this young QB can measure up to the 2011 Broncos, and sadly it is a mess right now, though our defense is leaps and bounds better than in 2011 (as is the in division competition).

      A huge difference from 2011 to now is that we won in spite of the flaws and our QB learned from mistakes he made, and used it. Lock - like Cutler - just doesn't seem to learn. Tim learned, Trevor learned.... but we seem to be on the train to Nowhere.

      You might not think that the only Denver drafted QB to ever make a mark on Broncos playoff history is irrelevant - but it is relevant to discuss why Lock is not at least as succesful

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Peerless View Post
        I hope we sit Lock against the Dolphins.

        He's clearly not healthy, and has not played well / regressed.

        Playing the Dolphins - winners of five straight, who have a defense who is great at getting sacks is a recipe for disaster with Lock out there.
        He can't stay healthy. Injured 3 times in as some would say rookies season.
        Until we get a TRUE qb we will miss the playoffs and be average at best! I'm E2DS and I approve this message!

        Comment


        • Somewhat subjective statistic, but still.

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          • Originally posted by Bootleg View Post
            Somewhat subjective statistic, but still.

            The top one seems pretty legit. The bottom one though, Brees and Bridgewater just throw like 5 yard completions all day. Fitzpatrick was playing out of his mind, though. I'll admit that. Alex Smith will wind up on that bottom list too, because he throws underneath all the time as well.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post

              The Cancel Culture (and self righteousness) is strong in this one!

              Not really. I'm just done with the revisionist history that credits TT with the successes of a team that carried him past his ability, and I have seen that process infect and destroy thread after thread on this forum.
              Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

              Comment


              • Originally posted by listopencil View Post

                revisionist history ....
                When Manning was signed Denver Post had 54% of readers disagreing with the switch, and the revisionist history is really the denigration of what happened in 2011. We can discuss completion percentages and throwing motion till the cows come home, and no one will ever be able to know what would have happened if Manning had not come to Denver.

                What is revisionist history is when you write "that credits TT with the successes of a team that carried him past his ability". The factual aspect is while Brandon Lloyd which was the best target for Tebow in the 3½ games he played before becoming the full time starter was traded, and Tebow started. Win rate went up 300% when Tebow took over from Orton. Nothing else happened with personnel or other aspects.

                While the team won and lost games together, they did that with Orton as well. It is a massive denigration of Tebow's impact ex. the defense that ranked 24th in points and was the statistically worst Broncos defense to ever enter the playoffs, or as many credit Prater for "winning" the Dolphins and Bears games where he misses a total of 3 easy FGs before making some tough ones.

                The reason that it becomes contentious is that some mix a whole lot different stuff into the discussion. I get really tired of hearing that he is a good person/Christian so...... or critisism that rides a single factor ... worthless because ..... completion percentage/trowing motion...

                The facts are that inserting Tebow for a HC that had never had any success with a young QB before, turned the NFL team with the worst W/L record the previous year into a very relevant team.

                Irrespective of his views, completion percentage and throwing motion, as a Bronco Tebow had more success than any other QB we have drafted. To most of us it would have made more sense if it had been Cutler that had made a run like that, but he didn't, and it was transparent early on that he was not a player that would succeed on the big stage.

                If our FO is ever going to build a successful franchise again, then they need to disect why the likes of Drew Lock and Jay Cutler, and in NFL players like Stafford... that have great tools but keep not getting results are not succeding. John Elway needs to understand that if it was only arm talent that counted then John Elway and Jay Cutler would have been equally successful, but Elway brought the insane will to win that Tebow did, and the ability to get people around him play that little bit better when it counts.

                What also happened when Tebow stepped in was the defense stepped up but according to Pro-Football_refernce the defense under Tebow in the regular season had a positive impact of 6 points over 11 games or about 0.5 points/game and minus 34 points in the playoffs, and minus 4 points/game when Orton started. It is hardly world beating performance.

                The thing is that Elway has kept drafting QBs that have not meet the level that Tebow displayed in that short window. He could have fallen flat on his face the next year, but he could also have fixed his biggest shortcomings to a level where ex. short passing was on par with the bottom of NFL.

                It is truly sad as Broncos fans we cannot enjoy what was one of the most interesting periods to speculate on the future of the team!
                Last edited by BroncoFanDK; 11-20-2020, 06:47 AM.

                Comment


                • Are we Cursed????
                  Like the "Babe Ruth Curse on the Yankees",,,,
                  Is it the "Tim Tebow Curse on the Broncos"?????????

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
                    Are we Cursed????
                    Like the "Babe Ruth Curse on the Yankees",,,,
                    Is it the "Tim Tebow Curse on the Broncos"?????????

                    I think it is safe to say that 2012-15 was not a curse - at least it didn't feel like it!
                    If there is a curse, it is more likely to be a Kubiak curse. When he left us last time it took 6 years to make the playoffs.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post

                      I think it is safe to say that 2012-15 was not a curse - at least it didn't feel like it!
                      If there is a curse, it is more likely to be a Kubiak curse. When he left us last time it took 6 years to make the playoffs.
                      Well,,,, other than PFM, all other Denver QB's have struggled.
                      ?????

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post

                        Well,,,, other than PFM, all other Denver QB's have struggled.
                        ?????
                        Well,,,,PFM struggled plenty at the end of 2014 and all of 2015. PFM's struggles in 2015 also seemed to entice the defense to raise their game. We bacially had the same defensive players in 2014 and 2015, and for a defense it seems that if the offense plays at the level they did in 2012, 13, 14 first half then defenses don't toughen up and you get shown up against elite teams.

                        Von having 6 weeks where he was not allowed to play meant nothing when Manning was on top, but the 2015 team - as the 2011 team became a hard nosed team that fought for every little gain. While the 2015 skills on defense was head and shoulders above 2011 they had the same scrappy fighting spirit. What Lock MUST show the defense is that if they play well we are in contention, and that is what is missing. Somehow Elway, Plummer, Tebow and limp 2015 Manning instilled that feeling and the results followed.

                        Lock is not awful, but he needs to learn how to play within his limits and he needs to be efficient enough that we can compete 1:1 with the Chiefs. Unless we can beat the Chiefs, we are going to be like the Bills, Jets and Dolphins were for 15 years facing BB/Brady.

                        Comment


                        • Lock still has a few games to prove he can be the Starter for the Broncos for years to come, it is sink or swim time for Lock.
                          He is from Missouri, and it's time for him to SHOW ME something.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
                            Lock still has a few games to prove he can be the Starter for the Broncos for years to come, it is sink or swim time for Lock.
                            He is from Missouri, and it's time for him to SHOW ME something.

                            It is at least time for him to show that the "nice pass" moments are not too often replaced by the "why" moments.
                            To me he needs to show that when the team needs him to win the game than he is the man to do it. One of the things that has impressed me with a player like Tom Brady is how incredibly often he hass done just enough to win in the end. I think one of the things that McDaniels struggled with in Denver, was that he was used to a situation that down by 6 with 1 minute left and with the ball in the hands of Brady anywhere on the field was considered almost a sure win, and Orton needed a lot more drives for all the marbles.

                            What Lock needs to show is that it is fair to expect to win every game if things go our way.

                            Comment


                            • Comment


                              • Originally posted by Peerless View Post
                                I hope we sit Lock against the Dolphins.

                                He's clearly not healthy, and has not played well / regressed.

                                Playing the Dolphins - winners of five straight, who have a defense who is great at getting sacks is a recipe for disaster with Lock out there.
                                I too hope he sits out this week. Let him watch his back up orchestrate the line once again, like he did last time, and beat the phins......while he gets healthy and let him have at it the rest of the way....

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