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  • Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post
    On 104.3 The Fan it's being reported that Vic Fangio will likely get more control over personnel in 2021 and specifically over who his quarterback is. That, coupled with what Kris is saying about Lock leads me to believe he'll be the one scapegoated for this season.
    Well that makes a ton of sense to me LOL
    John clearly knows how to build a good defense because he played against good defenses. It just makes sense that Vic knows better what a good QB is because he faced good QBs his whole career. Even if Lock has an ok day at this point I don't think he'll be the starter here next year, jmo

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    • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

      No, competition in camp never ends well, for anyone. Think of all the quarterback competitions that have occurred over the years, now tell me a few that worked out for the team in the immediate or long-term future ? They simply do not work. You need to pick your guy, commit to him getting the reps, and get him as prepared as you can for the season. Splitting reps and having old guys around just for the sake of it doesn't work.
      If you have two quarterbacks you have NO Quarterbacks!!!!!!
      sigpic

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      • Lock has made 12 starts this year with a 4-8 record.

        8 out of 12 times they scored 20 points or less.

        You could if you want take the Steelers game out since he went out so early, which would make it even worse since they scored 21 in the game.

        So really 8 of 11 games with 20 or less (5 times of 16 or less)

        Let that sink in for a moment...3/4 of the time.

        You will never win games like that
        sigpic

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        • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post

          No, competition in camp never ends well, for anyone. Think of all the quarterback competitions that have occurred over the years, now tell me a few that worked out for the team in the immediate or long-term future ? They simply do not work. You need to pick your guy, commit to him getting the reps, and get him as prepared as you can for the season. Splitting reps and having old guys around just for the sake of it doesn't work.
          So much this. We have been hearing the words "Bring in competition" since Tebow, and with the exception of the Super Bowl losing season, Denver still hasn't managed to find a QB and there is constantly some form of competition, excluding the Manning era and right now.

          Which means it doesn't work. Look at all the teams with a solid QB, there is no competition. The good teams draft a QB and stick with him until he proves he isn't the man, then they move onto the next man up or free agent. Examples: Wentz with the Eagles. No competition, he proved he isn't the guy, no second thoughts, got benched for the next man up.
          Jacoby Brissett proved he's not the guy, Colts signed Rivers.

          You either commit to a QB or you move on.
          sigpic
          Adopted Broncos:
          EmmanuelSanders

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          • Originally posted by listopencil View Post

            He threw that first pass off target. It was tipped because the WR was going for a ball that was poorly placed. Lock was scrambling and threw an inaccurate ball and it was picked off after it was tipped.
            It was definitely a really bad pass but I do like that he at least recognized that there was a window for Hamilton to catch it, he just put the ball on the wrong side which is generally what happens when you are right handed and running to your left especially if you side arm it.

            That being said, that was piss poor effort by Hamilton, he would’ve been better off not even reaching for it. But putting up one hand (his non dominant hand at that) and attempting a one handed Odell esque catch is ridiculous. Plant both feet in the ground and try like hell to drive yourself back to the ball and get both hands on it. Hamilton had another one off a pick where Lock gave him a jump ball (back shoulder would have been better I’ll admit) and Hamilton jumps and again only gets one hand on the ball without really making an effort to get his other hand on it.

            Hamilton, Jeudy, and Hamler all like to body catch the ball. Not only does it kill opportunities for yards after the catch but it makes it incredibly difficult on Lock because he along with every QB is taught to put the ball in front of the WRs 95% of the time but those guys all need it right on them so they can use their body to secure it. Even Fant can’t track the ball over his shoulder which mitigates his biggest asset which is speed so he becomes super limited in what kind of routes he can actually be trusted to run and make a play on.

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            • Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

              So much this. We have been hearing the words "Bring in competition" since Tebow, and with the exception of the Super Bowl losing season, Denver still hasn't managed to find a QB and there is constantly some form of competition, excluding the Manning era and right now.

              Which means it doesn't work. Look at all the teams with a solid QB, there is no competition. The good teams draft a QB and stick with him until he proves he isn't the man, then they move onto the next man up or free agent. Examples: Wentz with the Eagles. No competition, he proved he isn't the guy, no second thoughts, got benched for the next man up.
              Jacoby Brissett proved he's not the guy, Colts signed Rivers.

              You either commit to a QB or you move on.
              You wouldn’t consider drafting QB Jalen Hurts in the 2nd round of the draft as competition? To me that was a clear sign that if Wentz doesn’t perform well it would be next man up.
              "Dwight Howard On The Post Dog!!"

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              • Originally posted by JSwint22 View Post

                You wouldn’t consider drafting QB Jalen Hurts in the 2nd round of the draft as competition? To me that was a clear sign that if Wentz doesn’t perform well it would be next man up.
                That would be like saying Packers drafting Love is competition for Rodgers. Making a draft decision or free agent signing to light a fire under someone isn't competition. Competition is having the starter and backup split reps in offseason, in practice, giving them equal time in preseason, etc. Wentz and Hurts weren't dueling in practice for the job. It was Carson's job, he lost it himself, and Hurts putting life into the Eagles made it a permanent move.
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                Adopted Broncos:
                EmmanuelSanders

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                • Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

                  That would be like saying Packers drafting Love is competition for Rodgers. Making a draft decision or free agent signing to light a fire under someone isn't competition. Competition is having the starter and backup split reps in offseason, in practice, giving them equal time in preseason, etc. Wentz and Hurts weren't dueling in practice for the job. It was Carson's job, he lost it himself, and Hurts putting life into the Eagles made it a permanent move.
                  Very true statements... I guarantee the same would happen to Rodgers if the Packers fell apart this season though. If Rodgers led the league in picks and the Packers had a losing record I could see Love starting.
                  "Dwight Howard On The Post Dog!!"

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                  • I haven’t posted here for a while and other than a few posts in FB groups on game day threads I feel I can say what I’ve felt for almost all of the season with some conviction now whilst also avoiding the wrath of certain fans who think any criticism means you are a secret fan of that mob in Vegas.
                    I just cannot convince myself that Drew is the guy.I was worried when I saw Burrow and Herbert’s first two games (and all the rest later).These two seemed to have a far more varied and complete tool box to draw from and it was alarming that this seemed obvious in just two games from either.
                    Now given that I think Drew doesn’t have a very high ceiling after just about a full season,what I think those who refuse to accept that he’s not the guy aren’t getting is that there are divisions where you could MAYBE allow Drew to reach his ceiling,but we’re in a division that has a potential top 12-15 ATG,and the Chargers have a guy who you knew by week 5 was much better than our game and added to the fact they can probably draft the best defender on the board,have a lot to look forward to.
                    So I’m sorry but there are no improvements you can make in other areas which will make up for our QB’s shortcomings when we are in a division where one team can only beat themselves to the division for at least 5 years,another team who have the hardest puzzle solved and have a bright future(not to mention Vegas who are certainly not worse than us)
                    We will not get to the playoffs in such a tough division with a QB who IMO,would at best be on a par with a prime Andy Dalton.We either accept it will be one soul destroying season after another if we don’t take drastic action (and I don’t see it happening this off season)
                    Like I say there are maybe divisions where you could go with Drew and hope mediocrity will be enough,but it will be a long time before we enjoy January football in this division with a guy who’s already pretty much locked into Canton and a kid on a poor team who will still win OROTY.
                    I don’t see Elway willing to start at scratch again using a ton of draft capital,so next year will be more misery as I don’t fancy anyone hitting the market that is worth what they would want (obviously I mean starters to win now) and I don’t feel that great about the Wentz and Stafford talk.I’d give Dak more thought but not to pay him more than Aaron Rodgers even if they didn’t franchise him.
                    Unless it’s an absolute shock trade no one saw coming,I think we have to try and get a shiny top 10 draft pick but that’s not happening,and there’s a reason I say that.
                    My betting record this year is proof that I’m no particular expert,but there are two things from the 2018 draft I feel I’ve been right about;
                    Chubb has been very good when healthy,but I had my heart set on Quentin Nelson that year.Given one of the first things you’ve heard about us being really poor at since ‘15 is the OL.I know no one saw Chubb dropping,Von was constantly triple teamed and such a good prospect falling into your lap was hard to pass on.
                    But considering how much of a league-wide joke our OL was,I felt we had a generational talent for the OL,and having tried to watch him bfore the draft because I wanted him,I felt he would make Andrew Luck the top challenger for Rodgers’ top spot.
                    Luck never worked out but I think it’s pretty safe to say the kid will go to Canton and in a couple years,be the undisputed best lineman in the league.
                    I still feel that was what we needed and whilst it’s not sexy to pick a guard that high,he’s made good on all the promise.
                    Secondly (and I’m not arguing we should have drafted him but even when he was playing pretty piss poor,even halfway through last season I felt that Josh Allen would go into the history books as the best QB of his class.I admit a lot of it had to do with being old enough to remember Elway struggling early but I felt that Allen had a similar skill set and with time,would come good,even better than Jackson.
                    Now,I have no doubt that after five seasons he’ll be top 7 at worst,and the reason I cannot abide people comparing Elway’s early problems with Lock’s is that like Herbert and to a slightly lesser extent Allen (can’t deny his accuracy was a problem but there was way more promise),you know these guys have the fundamentals in place and with the right weapons and coaching they’ll be or were great.
                    Some of Drew’s problems are fundamentals that are all over the place.Footwork and dropping back look horrible at times and the way he takes a lot of sacks,I’m shocked he hasn’t been injured more.
                    So I don’t get a lot right but I guessed before the draft that Nelson was the most accomplished at his position going into the draft and hasn’t missed a step.
                    Josh Allen will be better than Lamar and the best of quite a full class.
                    And we are condemned to many more years of pain if Elway et al are not thinking about a drastic move by the draft after this upcoming one at the latest.
                    In fact it may be worth paying to trade up to the top 6 this year unless they have some major trade plan or something for the FA class in 2022.
                    Great kid with a lot of heart but we’re not in a division where we can plan on his ceiling,which as I said I think will be similar to a prime Dalton.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BroncosFanInPA View Post
                      Lock has made 12 starts this year with a 4-8 record.

                      8 out of 12 times they scored 20 points or less.

                      You could if you want take the Steelers game out since he went out so early, which would make it even worse since they scored 21 in the game.

                      So really 8 of 11 games with 20 or less (5 times of 16 or less)

                      Let that sink in for a moment...3/4 of the time.

                      You will never win games like that
                      To be fair if not for the dropped TDs during the Pats game it wouldve went over 20 and all the dropped passes with jeudy we would've went over sunday

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                      • Originally posted by Dotst View Post

                        To be fair if not for the dropped TDs during the Pats game it wouldve went over 20 and all the dropped passes with jeudy we would've went over sunday
                        Also, Denver would have been up at halftime against Vegas if not for Fant's holding penalty, which negated Lock's TD-run and any momentum.
                        Stupid penalties like that, rookie drops, RG/RT combos, all get ironed out with a solid preseason, hopefully.

                        After Ju'Wuan James opted out, did anyone expect Denver to have a good year offensively?

                        We're lucky to have Dotson at RT who recently stated Denver has the best locker room he's ever experienced.
                        Cushenberry may have had a better year than Risner. Glasgow made me miss McGovern.
                        Good for Bolles being the bright spot on a questionable offensive line.

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                        • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post

                          It was definitely a really bad pass but I do like that he at least recognized that there was a window for Hamilton to catch it, he just put the ball on the wrong side which is generally what happens when you are right handed and running to your left especially if you side arm it.

                          That being said, that was piss poor effort by Hamilton, he would’ve been better off not even reaching for it. But putting up one hand (his non dominant hand at that) and attempting a one handed Odell esque catch is ridiculous. Plant both feet in the ground and try like hell to drive yourself back to the ball and get both hands on it. Hamilton had another one off a pick where Lock gave him a jump ball (back shoulder would have been better I’ll admit) and Hamilton jumps and again only gets one hand on the ball without really making an effort to get his other hand on it.

                          Hamilton, Jeudy, and Hamler all like to body catch the ball. Not only does it kill opportunities for yards after the catch but it makes it incredibly difficult on Lock because he along with every QB is taught to put the ball in front of the WRs 95% of the time but those guys all need it right on them so they can use their body to secure it. Even Fant can’t track the ball over his shoulder which mitigates his biggest asset which is speed so he becomes super limited in what kind of routes he can actually be trusted to run and make a play on.
                          I think there's a good chance that DaeSean Hamilton is gone next year. He just doesn't do anything unusually well as a WR and there is too much talent around him. Jeudy and Hamler are both rookies and I can see the potential in both of them despite their weaknesses. Hamler has had a tendency to let passes go into his body because he's small, he did that in college - he doesn't want to stretch out to take the big hit and he trusts his speed to get to the ball more than his reach to go get it. Jeudy is trying to use his hands more but we saw this weekend how it's working out for him; it's a work in progress. But, again, those guys are rookies with obvious potential. I don't remember if I posted it in this thread or not but give me Sutton, Patrick, Jeudy, and Hamler. After that just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. It could be a couple of young guys who are valuable on Special Teams that show potential. I'm ready for this season to end and I'm looking forward to next year. Hoping we draft BPA in the first round and a starting RT in the second. I think other than having a real off season the best thing we can do for the Offense is to craft an O-Line that doesn't put Lock in Hero Ball Mode half the time.
                          Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

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                          • Originally posted by Dotst View Post

                            To be fair if not for the dropped TDs during the Pats game it wouldve went over 20 and all the dropped passes with jeudy we would've went over sunday
                            Sure you could look at it that way, at the same time you can say how many times he has missed wide open guys for big plays or touchdowns.

                            It goes both ways and it's the quarterbacks job to lead his team down the field and score points and it just isn't happening on a consistent enough basis
                            sigpic

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                            • Originally posted by VonElway758 View Post
                              I haven’t posted here for a while and other than a few posts in FB groups on game day threads I feel I can say what I’ve felt for almost all of the season with some conviction now whilst also avoiding the wrath of certain fans who think any criticism means you are a secret fan of that mob in Vegas.
                              I just cannot convince myself that Drew is the guy.I was worried when I saw Burrow and Herbert’s first two games (and all the rest later).These two seemed to have a far more varied and complete tool box to draw from and it was alarming that this seemed obvious in just two games from either.
                              Now given that I think Drew doesn’t have a very high ceiling after just about a full season,what I think those who refuse to accept that he’s not the guy aren’t getting is that there are divisions where you could MAYBE allow Drew to reach his ceiling,but we’re in a division that has a potential top 12-15 ATG,and the Chargers have a guy who you knew by week 5 was much better than our game and added to the fact they can probably draft the best defender on the board,have a lot to look forward to.
                              So I’m sorry but there are no improvements you can make in other areas which will make up for our QB’s shortcomings when we are in a division where one team can only beat themselves to the division for at least 5 years,another team who have the hardest puzzle solved and have a bright future(not to mention Vegas who are certainly not worse than us)
                              We will not get to the playoffs in such a tough division with a QB who IMO,would at best be on a par with a prime Andy Dalton.We either accept it will be one soul destroying season after another if we don’t take drastic action (and I don’t see it happening this off season)
                              Like I say there are maybe divisions where you could go with Drew and hope mediocrity will be enough,but it will be a long time before we enjoy January football in this division with a guy who’s already pretty much locked into Canton and a kid on a poor team who will still win OROTY.
                              I don’t see Elway willing to start at scratch again using a ton of draft capital,so next year will be more misery as I don’t fancy anyone hitting the market that is worth what they would want (obviously I mean starters to win now) and I don’t feel that great about the Wentz and Stafford talk.I’d give Dak more thought but not to pay him more than Aaron Rodgers even if they didn’t franchise him.
                              Unless it’s an absolute shock trade no one saw coming,I think we have to try and get a shiny top 10 draft pick but that’s not happening,and there’s a reason I say that.
                              My betting record this year is proof that I’m no particular expert,but there are two things from the 2018 draft I feel I’ve been right about;
                              Chubb has been very good when healthy,but I had my heart set on Quentin Nelson that year.Given one of the first things you’ve heard about us being really poor at since ‘15 is the OL.I know no one saw Chubb dropping,Von was constantly triple teamed and such a good prospect falling into your lap was hard to pass on.
                              But considering how much of a league-wide joke our OL was,I felt we had a generational talent for the OL,and having tried to watch him bfore the draft because I wanted him,I felt he would make Andrew Luck the top challenger for Rodgers’ top spot.
                              Luck never worked out but I think it’s pretty safe to say the kid will go to Canton and in a couple years,be the undisputed best lineman in the league.
                              I still feel that was what we needed and whilst it’s not sexy to pick a guard that high,he’s made good on all the promise.
                              Secondly (and I’m not arguing we should have drafted him but even when he was playing pretty piss poor,even halfway through last season I felt that Josh Allen would go into the history books as the best QB of his class.I admit a lot of it had to do with being old enough to remember Elway struggling early but I felt that Allen had a similar skill set and with time,would come good,even better than Jackson.
                              Now,I have no doubt that after five seasons he’ll be top 7 at worst,and the reason I cannot abide people comparing Elway’s early problems with Lock’s is that like Herbert and to a slightly lesser extent Allen (can’t deny his accuracy was a problem but there was way more promise),you know these guys have the fundamentals in place and with the right weapons and coaching they’ll be or were great.
                              Some of Drew’s problems are fundamentals that are all over the place.Footwork and dropping back look horrible at times and the way he takes a lot of sacks,I’m shocked he hasn’t been injured more.
                              So I don’t get a lot right but I guessed before the draft that Nelson was the most accomplished at his position going into the draft and hasn’t missed a step.
                              Josh Allen will be better than Lamar and the best of quite a full class.
                              And we are condemned to many more years of pain if Elway et al are not thinking about a drastic move by the draft after this upcoming one at the latest.
                              In fact it may be worth paying to trade up to the top 6 this year unless they have some major trade plan or something for the FA class in 2022.
                              Great kid with a lot of heart but we’re not in a division where we can plan on his ceiling,which as I said I think will be similar to a prime Dalton.
                              Wow! nice post, very well thought out. I really can't see anything I disagree with. Lock isn't going to cut it long term from what I have seen so far. I don't know Elway's draft board that year but I think Chubb was right at the top after maybe Baker Mayfield. Allen has improved a ton also.

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                              • Originally posted by BroncosFanInPA View Post

                                Sure you could look at it that way, at the same time you can say how many times he has missed wide open guys for big plays or touchdowns.

                                It goes both ways and it's the quarterbacks job to lead his team down the field and score points and it just isn't happening on a consistent enough basis
                                Yep, Lots of dropped interceptions this year for Lock too. The maddening thing was even with Lock's shaky start he made good enough throws to tie and potentially win the Chargers game. Lock likely isn't good enough to depend on in the future. If Denver as a team continually drops/holds/coaching head scratchers on huge plays even Lawerence or Fields wouldn't as good as they should if by some crazy scenario they would come to Denver.

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