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  • Originally posted by orange crush75 View Post

    I dont know if your post is in reference to me , but I dont think he's sooo good . My mind set is its either Watson or no one . I dont want Wentz , I dont want Minshew ect... imo we have that in Lock . I want a young Qb who is gonna be around and give the league competition for years to come .

    I really hope that if Lock is our Qb this next season a bunch around here will eat some crow because of his play . I dont see members claiming Lock is a stud and our franchise Qb . What I see is members saying 18 games isn't enough to make a true decision. However I DO see members here already calling him a bust and nothing but a back up.
    You alse see people everywhere calling a QB that started 16 games for the then worst team in football, turned that into winning the division and as the only QB ever drafted by the Broncos to win a playoff game (incidentally the game with the statistically highest rated QB performance ever by a Broncos QB) for a bust.

    The simple fact with Lock is that we could have valid hopes and projections on him at the start of this season, but there is absolutely nothing that he has produced this season that give any indication that he will ever be able to lead Broncos or any other team anywhere good. The team does not respond to him and his poor accuracy and decision making burns us again and again.

    If Lock is our QB next season then I hope that I will have to eat my words, but I don't see anything that anyone outside the Broncos fan groups would justify having trust in Lock over!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by orange crush75 View Post

      I dont know if your post is in reference to me , but I dont think he's sooo good . My mind set is its either Watson or no one . I dont want Wentz , I dont want Minshew ect... imo we have that in Lock . I want a young Qb who is gonna be around and give the league competition for years to come .

      I really hope that if Lock is our Qb this next season a bunch around here will eat some crow because of his play . I dont see members claiming Lock is a stud and our franchise Qb . What I see is members saying 18 games isn't enough to make a true decision. However I DO see members here already calling him a bust and nothing but a back up.
      I won't be eating crow....there are other qbs in the nfl history that has gotten less starts than that....

      Coaching football....thats apart of being a coach you can see things most don't know or wouldn't see....therefore you don't have to give more time...

      After Rams signed Goff to a huge contract....they could have said let him play is contract out and see if he can bounce back...mcvay said no I don't need to see him play anymore he does not have it.....
      Until we get a TRUE not name "Lock" qb we will miss the playoffs and be average at best! I'm E2DS and I approve this message! "AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW, NOW YA KNOW."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

        With Lock the worst in the league, you could name 31 QB's that are upgrades. Throw in a few of the QB's in the upcoming draft, too. Lock has a long ways to go before he's worthy of a franchise QB.
        You're saying those 31 QBs could be had right now?
        "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

        Comment


        • Originally posted by samparnell View Post

          You're saying those 31 QBs could be had right now?
          Of course not. Just saying that Lock's ranking around the bottom of the barrel in the league. The idea that the Broncos should hold on grabbing another QB and developing him is a great way to throw away a season based on far flung hope. Yes, some rookie QB's who do bad their first year turn into great QB's. But, those are the exceptions, not the rule. Also, some of those QB's (like Elway and Manning) showed special abilities. Lock isn't that guy. He's got an arm. Trouble is that arm needs the rest of the body and what's between his ears to be amazing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by orange crush75 View Post

            I dont know if your post is in reference to me , but I dont think he's sooo good . My mind set is its either Watson or no one . I dont want Wentz , I dont want Minshew ect... imo we have that in Lock . I want a young Qb who is gonna be around and give the league competition for years to come .

            I really hope that if Lock is our Qb this next season a bunch around here will eat some crow because of his play . I dont see members claiming Lock is a stud and our franchise Qb . What I see is members saying 18 games isn't enough to make a true decision. However I DO see members here already calling him a bust and nothing but a back up.
            I get what you're saying, but Lock and Minshew are very different quarterbacks. If you watch Minshew's games closely, you'll see that. There are actually training videos of fundamentals/mechanics that use Minshew as an example. Watch the ball placement and throw selection. I see videos of people who actually think Minshew is just lucky on those back shoulders, because they don't believe he can be that accurate. His improvisation ability reminds me of Jake Plummer. I'm not saying he's a world beater in waiting. No way. He has warts like any of these quarterbacks do. What I'm saying is the main reason Lock and Minshew are different quarterbacks is that Minshew can play complementary football right now. Lock cannot. Maybe a change in OC is what Lock needs, but that's apparently not in the cards right now.

            With that said...I mentioned Plummer. Plummer was not a quarterback you could trust, though clutch he'd proven himself to be, in Arizona. Shanahan knew he could play to Plummer's strengths, take some pressure off of him, and simplify things for him. I acknowledge that Plummer showed no signs of being a complementary type of quarterback, but the situation coaching wise was totally different.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

              Of course not. Just saying that Lock's ranking around the bottom of the barrel in the league. The idea that the Broncos should hold on grabbing another QB and developing him is a great way to throw away a season based on far flung hope. Yes, some rookie QB's who do bad their first year turn into great QB's. But, those are the exceptions, not the rule. Also, some of those QB's (like Elway and Manning) showed special abilities. Lock isn't that guy. He's got an arm. Trouble is that arm needs the rest of the body and what's between his ears to be amazing.
              Don't know what will happen with Denver Broncos player acquisition this year. They may acquire an additional QB. If they do, a veteran seems more likely than a draft choice, although a developmental PS type of guy in later rounds seems more likely than a first round pick.

              Hard to say what will happen with Drew Lock. If he stays in Denver, it is good to remind oneself that football players can get better, worse or stay the same. The area for improvement that you pinpoint is the one most susceptible to coaching and personal development through study and work.

              Case in point: 2019 Garrett Bolles vs. 2020 Garrett Bolles; 2020 Drew Lock vs. 2021 Drew Lock???
              "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                I get what you're saying, but Lock and Minshew are very different quarterbacks. If you watch Minshew's games closely, you'll see that. There are actually training videos of fundamentals/mechanics that use Minshew as an example. Watch the ball placement and throw selection. I see videos of people who actually think Minshew is just lucky on those back shoulders, because they don't believe he can be that accurate. His improvisation ability reminds me of Jake Plummer. I'm not saying he's a world beater in waiting. No way. He has warts like any of these quarterbacks do. What I'm saying is the main reason Lock and Minshew are different quarterbacks is that Minshew can play complementary football right now. Lock cannot. Maybe a change in OC is what Lock needs, but that's apparently not in the cards right now.

                With that said...I mentioned Plummer. Plummer was not a quarterback you could trust, though clutch he'd proven himself to be, in Arizona. Shanahan knew he could play to Plummer's strengths, take some pressure off of him, and simplify things for him. I acknowledge that Plummer showed no signs of being a complementary type of quarterback, but the situation coaching wise was totally different.
                When Jake Plummer played in Denver, Broncos' rushing attack was pretty much 100% Zone steps. Jake excelled at Boot in that Series. Would be interesting to know how many of his pass attempts came off of Boot and what the stats were on those.

                In what kind of offense does Minshew play? What kind of rushing attack is used? How much PAP?
                "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                  With Lock the worst in the league, you could name 31 QB's that are upgrades. Throw in a few of the QB's in the upcoming draft, too. Lock has a long ways to go before he's worthy of a franchise QB.
                  There is definitely not 31 NFL qbs better than Lock.

                  Even if one adds in the Qbs from college I do not think one can realistically get to 31
                  Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                    When Jake Plummer played in Denver, Broncos' rushing attack was pretty much 100% Zone steps. Jake excelled at Boot in that Series. Would be interesting to know how many of his pass attempts came off of Boot and what the stats were on those.

                    In what kind of offense does Minshew play? What kind of rushing attack is used? How much PAP?
                    In '19, John DeFilippo was his OC. Worked under Pederson and Reich. He's the one the Vikings fired in '18. Similar offense to Shurmur's. In '20, Jay Gruden. So, yes on a West Coast offense that utilizes a lot of PAP, and boots. Gruden's offense hasn't been exclusively zone blocking like Shanahan's.

                    What I actually meant about Plummer though, was in comparison to Lock. I just don't know how much Lock will improve under Shurmur as opposed to Shanahan. I totally get what some posters have said about establishing continuity at the same time. I get both sides of that argument.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ear2dastreets View Post

                      I won't be eating crow....there are other qbs in the nfl history that has gotten less starts than that....

                      Coaching football....thats apart of being a coach you can see things most don't know or wouldn't see....therefore you don't have to give more time...

                      After Rams signed Goff to a huge contract....they could have said let him play is contract out and see if he can bounce back...mcvay said no I don't need to see him play anymore he does not have it.....
                      not everyone develops at the same or or the same way. especially when they have different teachers.

                      I still think the older way is best when it comes to developing qbs. Draft them, let them sit a year and get the routine down and learn.

                      a well cooked meal is always better than something out of a microwave
                      Glen Haven Fire

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                        Don't know what will happen with Denver Broncos player acquisition this year. They may acquire an additional QB. If they do, a veteran seems more likely than a draft choice, although a developmental PS type of guy in later rounds seems more likely than a first round pick.

                        Hard to say what will happen with Drew Lock. If he stays in Denver, it is good to remind oneself that football players can get better, worse or stay the same. The area for improvement that you pinpoint is the one most susceptible to coaching and personal development through study and work.

                        Case in point: 2019 Garrett Bolles vs. 2020 Garrett Bolles; 2020 Drew Lock vs. 2021 Drew Lock???
                        Heard on the local sports radio station that the Broncos are in the mix for Watson. I wouldn't mind the Broncos giving up 3 1st round picks and a couple of 2nds or 3rds for him. They'd have to dump some salaries (Miller?) to open up their cap space.

                        Yeah, it is hard to say what will happen with Lock. Nothing's for sure (except taxes and death, right?). We can take a reasonable approach to guessing what will, though. Most QBs who do poorly don't turn into HOF QB's, especially ones who weren't exceptional talent. Throw Shurmur in the mix, who hasn't been known for developing QB's, and that doesn't help Drew. With this coaching staff, what the team needs is a QB who can excel on his own, and maybe even in spite of the staff. Not many of those guys. Watson's probably one. The team has some good players, which would likely improve Watson's performance.

                        Comparing Bolles to Lock is almost like apples to oranges. No other position really compares to the demands of QB.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                          I get what you're saying, but Lock and Minshew are very different quarterbacks. If you watch Minshew's games closely, you'll see that. There are actually training videos of fundamentals/mechanics that use Minshew as an example. Watch the ball placement and throw selection. I see videos of people who actually think Minshew is just lucky on those back shoulders, because they don't believe he can be that accurate. His improvisation ability reminds me of Jake Plummer. I'm not saying he's a world beater in waiting. No way. He has warts like any of these quarterbacks do. What I'm saying is the main reason Lock and Minshew are different quarterbacks is that Minshew can play complementary football right now. Lock cannot. Maybe a change in OC is what Lock needs, but that's apparently not in the cards right now.

                          With that said...I mentioned Plummer. Plummer was not a quarterback you could trust, though clutch he'd proven himself to be, in Arizona. Shanahan knew he could play to Plummer's strengths, take some pressure off of him, and simplify things for him. I acknowledge that Plummer showed no signs of being a complementary type of quarterback, but the situation coaching wise was totally different.
                          It was not Shanahan that knew how to play to Plummer's strengths. Shanahan totally destroyed what had worked in 2005 on the back of Kubiak and Plummer working together in the offseason. Shanahan and Plummer did not work at all.

                          Plummer produced a substantially higher win rate than Elway. Plummer in 2005 held the Broncos record for the most passes without an interception, and while some love to blame him for not being our rosey memory Elway the infallible he also played with a defense that could be exposed like Peyton showed several times. Plummer was top 10 in his time in Denver!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post

                            It was not Shanahan that knew how to play to Plummer's strengths. Shanahan totally destroyed what had worked in 2005 on the back of Kubiak and Plummer working together in the offseason. Shanahan and Plummer did not work at all.

                            Plummer produced a substantially higher win rate than Elway. Plummer in 2005 held the Broncos record for the most passes without an interception, and while some love to blame him for not being our rosey memory Elway the infallible he also played with a defense that could be exposed like Peyton showed several times. Plummer was top 10 in his time in Denver!
                            I was never fan of Plummer because you always knew that he was going to throw that Ill Advised Interception when the game was on the line and he did just that in the 2005 AFC Championship Game Laying to Waste the Best Performance Ever From A True HOF Lock Down Shut Down Corner Back in Champ Bailey ( BTW Champ got hosed on not getting the DPOY ) MAD AND UGH !!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post

                              It was not Shanahan that knew how to play to Plummer's strengths. Shanahan totally destroyed what had worked in 2005 on the back of Kubiak and Plummer working together in the offseason. Shanahan and Plummer did not work at all.

                              Plummer produced a substantially higher win rate than Elway. Plummer in 2005 held the Broncos record for the most passes without an interception, and while some love to blame him for not being our rosey memory Elway the infallible he also played with a defense that could be exposed like Peyton showed several times. Plummer was top 10 in his time in Denver!
                              If it was Kubes who wanted to bring him in and work with him, then yeah, apply it to Kubiak. Either way they turned Plummer's career around, and got the most out of him. It's hard to say with Cutty, because it's also on the quarterback to learn from their mistakes, and willingness to make the right play. Kubiak definitely played a big role in Shanahan's success, though.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by armedequation View Post

                                not everyone develops at the same or or the same way. especially when they have different teachers.

                                I still think the older way is best when it comes to developing qbs. Draft them, let them sit a year and get the routine down and learn.

                                a well cooked meal is always better than something out of a microwave
                                To add...

                                I think sitting behind another vet qb in a good learning situation helps

                                Mahomes under Alex Smith
                                Rodgers under Favre (honestly Rodgers is a mental beast and probably could have done this under any good vet QB)
                                Elway under Deberg
                                Actually a couple Qbs under Deberg

                                IMO it would have been just as good for Lock to learn from Rypien as Flacco. Partly because of Rypien...mostly because of Flacco.
                                Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                                Comment

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