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  • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

    Ah, gotcha. I want that HOF QB. Without that, the Broncos have been pretty much irrelevant, whether you consider this post Manning era, or the post Elway era. Certainly not an easy task to accomplish.
    Irrelevant??????
    From 2000-2016 we were within 1 win of the playoffs all but 3 years!

    Comment


    • Where is the bar for Lock? Are we really expecting HoF QB play out of a QB during his rookie contract? Guys like Mahomes and Watson are the exception and not the rule. Baker Mayfield would’ve been ran out of town after his 2nd season but he found a way to win games and get them in the playoffs even if as a game manager. This is generally the path young QBs who are successful take. Look at Manning during his first 5 seasons, 3-13, 13-3, 10-6, 6-10, 10-6. How many people here would’ve been calling for his head after that 6-10 season in which he threw 23 INTs and 26 TDs? In his first 5 seasons Manning threw 100 INTs. Drew Brees wasn’t good early on, Rivers had success early but once LT declined so did their record, even Rodgers in his first season starting went 6-10 after 3 seasons on the bench. Tom Brady was just a game manager for much of the early portion of his career.

      And to be clear I’m not comparing Lock to these QBs. I’m merely pointing out that it takes time to develop into a HoF QB more often than not. Sure some guys come in and excel very quickly but that isn’t how it usually goes. It’s a bit easier now especially for QBs that can run or if they have a coach that’s adapting some of their college concepts for the NFL but Lock isn’t really a running QB nor do we have a coach who really adapts his offense to anything.

      Lock could still be the guy and we’re giving up on him a year too early. He may not be the guy, but the next QB we draft will still need time to develop into a good QB. That’s why if it isn’t Watson (or Prescott) I’d rather we just keep Drew for this season. It doesn’t make sense IMO for us to take on another developmental project in the draft when we haven’t even reached the final phase of Lock’s development phase. Most said when he came out he was a 2-3 year project QB, he’s 2 years and only 18 games in. This can become an even worse cycle real quick if we just start recycling QBs who need time to develop.

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      • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
        Where is the bar for Lock? Are we really expecting HoF QB play out of a QB during his rookie contract? .... Most said when he came out he was a 2-3 year project QB, he’s 2 years and only 18 games in. This can become an even worse cycle real quick if we just start recycling QBs who need time to develop.
        Some of us, like myself, aren't throwing the towel in on him, yet. However, I'd like to see the Broncos work on bringing in either a great prospect via draft or a solid, competitive vet. Let Lock either compete for the position or sit behind a vet and try to learn. The division is Mahomes, Herbert, and talk is the Raiders are going after Watson. With competition like that, do you want to wait a couple years, then have to go through the QB search again, or do you want a parallel effort for that position. I'd rather not wait.

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        • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
          Where is the bar for Lock? Are we really expecting HoF QB play out of a QB during his rookie contract? Guys like Mahomes and Watson are the exception and not the rule. Baker Mayfield would’ve been ran out of town after his 2nd season but he found a way to win games and get them in the playoffs even if as a game manager. This is generally the path young QBs who are successful take. Look at Manning during his first 5 seasons, 3-13, 13-3, 10-6, 6-10, 10-6. How many people here would’ve been calling for his head after that 6-10 season in which he threw 23 INTs and 26 TDs? In his first 5 seasons Manning threw 100 INTs. Drew Brees wasn’t good early on, Rivers had success early but once LT declined so did their record, even Rodgers in his first season starting went 6-10 after 3 seasons on the bench. Tom Brady was just a game manager for much of the early portion of his career.

          And to be clear I’m not comparing Lock to these QBs. I’m merely pointing out that it takes time to develop into a HoF QB more often than not. Sure some guys come in and excel very quickly but that isn’t how it usually goes. It’s a bit easier now especially for QBs that can run or if they have a coach that’s adapting some of their college concepts for the NFL but Lock isn’t really a running QB nor do we have a coach who really adapts his offense to anything.

          Lock could still be the guy and we’re giving up on him a year too early. He may not be the guy, but the next QB we draft will still need time to develop into a good QB. That’s why if it isn’t Watson (or Prescott) I’d rather we just keep Drew for this season. It doesn’t make sense IMO for us to take on another developmental project in the draft when we haven’t even reached the final phase of Lock’s development phase. Most said when he came out he was a 2-3 year project QB, he’s 2 years and only 18 games in. This can become an even worse cycle real quick if we just start recycling QBs who need time to develop.
          The bar would have been an 8-8 season with a much better TD/INT ratio......but hey, the Sheriff him self went 26/28 his rookie year. (side note on manning) Amazing he only had 2 seasons where his team did not have double digit wins
          Last edited by rst08tierney; 02-03-2021, 07:19 PM.

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          • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

            Some of us, like myself, aren't throwing the towel in on him, yet. However, I'd like to see the Broncos work on bringing in either a great prospect via draft or a solid, competitive vet. Let Lock either compete for the position or sit behind a vet and try to learn. The division is Mahomes, Herbert, and talk is the Raiders are going after Watson. With competition like that, do you want to wait a couple years, then have to go through the QB search again, or do you want a parallel effort for that position. I'd rather not wait.
            I agree to an extent, but QB competitions are generally counterproductive to everyone involved. Young QBs need every single rep they can get to expedite the development process. And when you draft a QB in the first round, it really isn’t a competition as the previous starter will be on his way out as soon as his contract is up more often than not.

            I actually like what the Eagles did when they drafted Hurts. As a completely different type of QB and being a later 2nd round pick he would (in theory) be allotted a good amount of time to develop over a few seasons before stepping into the starting role. Unfortunately for them Carson Wentz imploded and expedited the process which may ultimately stunt the development of Hurts if he has to compete and split reps.

            Or what we did when we signed Manning and drafted Osweiler. Unfortunately Osweiler didn’t pan out because his ego was hurt but I did think he had a chance to be pretty good in Kubiak’s offense and would’ve provided a smoother transition.

            So if I’m drafting a QB this year, I’d maybe think about Lance in the 2nd or Newman later in the draft. Lance needs a lot of time to develop and Newman is a bit of an enigma despite the senior bowl but he was very highly regarded coming out of high school and did flash some good stuff at wake forest when he did play.

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            • I think quarterback competitions deserve even stronger language against them than that Beast, "generally counterproductive", I would ask when have they worked ? As a percentage it would be extremely low, and I think you can flat out say, they do not work, period. Wasting reps on a tired veteran who has no potential to ever be the long term answer is a waste of time with this current roster, we are not on the verge of competing.

              Elway seemed to be stuck in this place where he thought we were just solid quarterback play away from returning to the playoffs, but the rest of the roster he built was also not ready. Right now I think we are a few years away regardless of who is at quarterback, and I feel Lock is the answer this year. I don't see a saviour in the free agency pool, I don't see a saviour available for trade in exchange for reasonable compensation on the open market, and I don't see us having a shot at a top prospect in the draft either, maybe another Lock, but why do that ?

              I think you just go all in Lock this year, best prepare him for the season by putting all of your resources this off-season behind him, and you see how it goes. If I thought our roster was anywhere near being a playoff winning team I might be open to a mediocre veteran, but we are not, and I want youth. But, we will probably sign Brissett, have an open competition, play the veteran for 9 games, go 2-7, then go with Lock and be back at square one like every dumb NFL team who seems to think quarterback competitions will finally work, despite the track record showing the contrary.

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              • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                I think quarterback competitions deserve even stronger language against them than that Beast, "generally counterproductive", I would ask when have they worked ? As a percentage it would be extremely low,...

                ...I think you just go all in Lock this year, best prepare him for the season by putting all of your resources this off-season behind him, and you see how it goes.
                I'd bet the reason a lot of those QB competitions don't work is because the team has two questionable QBs and they're trying to choose the lesser of two evils. And, when you have a borderline starting QB (which right now that's what Lock is), neither are likely to work out.

                To the second point, I don't agree. The Broncos have a #9 draft position. Those top 10 draft positions don't happen often, so when they do, I'm a believer you take advantage to try to get one of the top 2-3 QBs, if your team doesn't have a proven, capable QB (which Lock isn't). Unless your team is set at QB, that top 10 draft pick should be for getting your QB, and nothing else. Last time the Broncos had that opportunity, they screwed the pooch and got Chubb. There were 3 good QBs still on the board, and the Broncos blew it. If we stick with your approach, the Broncos might improve to a 7 win team, then they'll be back in the mid to late teens to draft, and you're not getting a QB from back there. The opportunity is here now. Don't blow it.
                Last edited by DiveInstructor; 02-04-2021, 07:48 AM.

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                • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                  I think quarterback competitions deserve even stronger language against them than that Beast, "generally counterproductive", I would ask when have they worked ? As a percentage it would be extremely low, and I think you can flat out say, they do not work, period. Wasting reps on a tired veteran who has no potential to ever be the long term answer is a waste of time with this current roster, we are not on the verge of competing.

                  Elway seemed to be stuck in this place where he thought we were just solid quarterback play away from returning to the playoffs, but the rest of the roster he built was also not ready. Right now I think we are a few years away regardless of who is at quarterback, and I feel Lock is the answer this year. I don't see a saviour in the free agency pool, I don't see a saviour available for trade in exchange for reasonable compensation on the open market, and I don't see us having a shot at a top prospect in the draft either, maybe another Lock, but why do that ?

                  I think you just go all in Lock this year, best prepare him for the season by putting all of your resources this off-season behind him, and you see how it goes. If I thought our roster was anywhere near being a playoff winning team I might be open to a mediocre veteran, but we are not, and I want youth. But, we will probably sign Brissett, have an open competition, play the veteran for 9 games, go 2-7, then go with Lock and be back at square one like every dumb NFL team who seems to think quarterback competitions will finally work, despite the track record showing the contrary.
                  They don't generally work bc if you're having a QB competition that translates to you don't have any good QBs to begin with. If you have a good QB, then there is no need for a competition. This is your starter, he's getting all the first team reps, this is who you're game planning with. When there is a competition you are dividing all of that, dividing first team reps, dividing game plans. With rookies or young QBs you need all the reps you can get to develop, learn game on the NFL level, etc. Dividing that can kill project QB's growth.

                  The best teams don't have competitions, they have their guy and they will live and die on that guy until they feel like he isn't...then he gets traded, no drafting someone to compete, or signing someone to compete. You aren't the guy anymore, go play for someone else.

                  Bad teams draft a QB in the first round with the thought that he will start out the gate, get all the reps, etc. They don't draft in the top 5 and then go "Well let's get someone to compete with him." At best they'll sign a veteran backup who can help with the grooming process of the drafted QB. This is something Lock lacked. Who helped groom Lock? Blake Bortles on practice squad? That ain't good.
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                  • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                    I'd bet the reason a lot of those QB competitions don't work is because the team has two questionable QBs and they're trying to choose the lesser of two evils. And, when you have a borderline starting QB (which right now that's what Lock is), neither are likely to work out.

                    To the second point, I don't agree. The Broncos have a #9 draft position. Those top 10 draft positions don't happen often, so when they do, I'm a believer you take advantage to try to get one of the top 2-3 QBs, if your team doesn't have a proven, capable QB (which Lock isn't). Unless your team is set at QB, that top 10 draft pick should be for getting your QB, and nothing else. Last time the Broncos had that opportunity, they screwed the pooch and got Chubb. There were 3 good QBs still on the board, and the Broncos blew it. If we stick with your approach, the Broncos might improve to a 7 win team, then they'll be back in the mid to late teens to draft, and you're not getting a QB from back there. The opportunity is here now. Don't blow it.
                    On your first point, yes, that is a large part of it obviously. However, on your second, you need context, you can't just say that. Last year if you are picking at number 10 you don't have a guy sitting there who is considered a top prospect because the class was legitimately strong, and all the guys who would be considered potential franchise guys were gone. Compare that to a weak class like the year before when 7 names are being tossed around as first-round picks, and you could have picked a bunch of them because they are still sitting on the board. I say if someone is there, a legitimate prospect at 9, take him, but applying this thinking to this year's draft specifically, who will that guy be, and is he a better prospect than Lock ? I don't think so.

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                    • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                      I'd bet the reason a lot of those QB competitions don't work is because the team has two questionable QBs and they're trying to choose the lesser of two evils. And, when you have a borderline starting QB (which right now that's what Lock is), neither are likely to work out.

                      To the second point, I don't agree. The Broncos have a #9 draft position. Those top 10 draft positions don't happen often, so when they do, I'm a believer you take advantage to try to get one of the top 2-3 QBs, if your team doesn't have a proven, capable QB (which Lock isn't). Unless your team is set at QB, that top 10 draft pick should be for getting your QB, and nothing else. Last time the Broncos had that opportunity, they screwed the pooch and got Chubb. There were 3 good QBs still on the board, and the Broncos blew it. If we stick with your approach, the Broncos might improve to a 7 win team, then they'll be back in the mid to late teens to draft, and you're not getting a QB from back there. The opportunity is here now. Don't blow it.
                      name them. I can See Allen and Jackson. are you considering Rosen a good QB? Darnold and Mayfield where off the board by then. it is also not saying that Jackson would have developed the same here. he still has struggles throwing the ball. he is a great runner, but his throwing is still a work in progress. I don't think he succeeds as well with out that offense he is currently in, and I don't get that any of the OCs would have changed there offense for Jackson. Allen was still a huge Project. who says he would have developed as well here. if you check his college tape his Accuracy was questionable, and a lot of the time QBs have issues improving on the accuracy. so who knows if it would have improved like it has majorly in Buffalo
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                      • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
                        Where is the bar for Lock? Are we really expecting HoF QB play out of a QB during his rookie contract? Guys like Mahomes and Watson are the exception and not the rule. Baker Mayfield would’ve been ran out of town after his 2nd season but he found a way to win games and get them in the playoffs even if as a game manager. This is generally the path young QBs who are successful take. Look at Manning during his first 5 seasons, 3-13, 13-3, 10-6, 6-10, 10-6. How many people here would’ve been calling for his head after that 6-10 season in which he threw 23 INTs and 26 TDs? In his first 5 seasons Manning threw 100 INTs. Drew Brees wasn’t good early on, Rivers had success early but once LT declined so did their record, even Rodgers in his first season starting went 6-10 after 3 seasons on the bench. Tom Brady was just a game manager for much of the early portion of his career.

                        And to be clear I’m not comparing Lock to these QBs. I’m merely pointing out that it takes time to develop into a HoF QB more often than not. Sure some guys come in and excel very quickly but that isn’t how it usually goes. It’s a bit easier now especially for QBs that can run or if they have a coach that’s adapting some of their college concepts for the NFL but Lock isn’t really a running QB nor do we have a coach who really adapts his offense to anything.

                        Lock could still be the guy and we’re giving up on him a year too early. He may not be the guy, but the next QB we draft will still need time to develop into a good QB. That’s why if it isn’t Watson (or Prescott) I’d rather we just keep Drew for this season. It doesn’t make sense IMO for us to take on another developmental project in the draft when we haven’t even reached the final phase of Lock’s development phase. Most said when he came out he was a 2-3 year project QB, he’s 2 years and only 18 games in. This can become an even worse cycle real quick if we just start recycling QBs who need time to develop.
                        The counter to your point on Lock, which is preaching patience, is that Lock has nothing special or worthwhile to his game. He's not accurate, he's not mobile (at least effectively or dynamically mobile), he's not a football savant, he's not a physical beast. Even his arm strength, which was supposed to be a big selling point, doesn't pass the eye test. He's actually quite average from a skillset standpoint, and when you have an average skillset but you play poorly no one is going to have the patience with you that they may have for an Elway, Manning, Rivers, Allen, etc.. Not to mention that the Broncos have been losing for the better part of 5 years now and Vic Fangio is more or less coaching for his job in 2021.

                        It's not even that Lock was a middle-of-the-pack quarterback either, because then you could argue about being patient. He was dead last in all meaningful statistical categories when it came to quarterback play. He would have to make a quantum leap in terms of play just to be considered an average passer. Is it possible? Maybe. But again, the eye test tells you that he doesn't have the mechanics or the specialness to compete with some of the top-tier quarterbacks in the NFL.
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                        • Originally posted by mojo0730 View Post

                          The counter to your point on Lock, which is preaching patience, is that Lock has nothing special or worthwhile to his game. He's not accurate, he's not mobile (at least effectively or dynamically mobile), he's not a football savant, he's not a physical beast. Even his arm strength, which was supposed to be a big selling point, doesn't pass the eye test. He's actually quite average from a skillset standpoint, and when you have an average skillset but you play poorly no one is going to have the patience with you that they may have for an Elway, Manning, Rivers, Allen, etc.. Not to mention that the Broncos have been losing for the better part of 5 years now and Vic Fangio is more or less coaching for his job in 2021.

                          It's not even that Lock was a middle-of-the-pack quarterback either, because then you could argue about being patient. He was dead last in all meaningful statistical categories when it came to quarterback play. He would have to make a quantum leap in terms of play just to be considered an average passer. Is it possible? Maybe. But again, the eye test tells you that he doesn't have the mechanics or the specialness to compete with some of the top-tier quarterbacks in the NFL.
                          There’s no argument I can make against this. I mean I could, but the eye test is a subjective thing. It’s what you see, it may not be what I see. It may be right, it may be a million miles off base. But I definitely see it a different way than you do.

                          You say he isn’t accurate, but he’s inaccurate for things that can be coached up and those were things he did show improvement in especially down the stretch last season. I agree he’s not dynamically mobile, but he is mobile and can run, he’s far from a statue. He was actually very effective when he ran read option plays and even throwing on the run to his right off bootlegs. Throwing while running to his left is a massive work in progress but it’s really as simple as squaring up and making sure he gets the inseam of his foot lined up with his target. His arm doesn’t even pass your eye test? He has a cannon, I’ve seen him throw 20 yard outs from the opposite side of the field, he has put the ball in very tight windows that few QBs can. Again throwing on the run to his right it’s all arm strength because he never gets squared up or sets his feet correctly and he’s bombed some out of the reach of everyone.

                          Now it isn’t consistent, none of it is. But that’s why I preach patience. There isn’t 1 bad thing that can’t be corrected through coaching and there wasn’t 1 bad thing I saw that lasted consistently all season. He got better at reading defense pre and post snap, he got through his progressions faster as the season went on, his footwork was the one thing that remained bad most of the season but in week 17 he seemed to finally figure it out. That shows that he is responding to coaching, now it isn’t always a steady upward progression but it rarely ever is. That’s why I’m preaching patience. He just has to get it committed to memory through physical repetition.



                          If we’re not getting Watson or Prescott we are much better served to just stick it out with Lock and hope he improves or gets us a better draft spot than 9 next season.

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                          • Jeudy lauds Lock, Watson in eyebrow-raising media tour (msn.com)

                            Jerry Jeudy says he’s working on his hand-eye co-ordination and doing exercises to strengthen his grip ahead of some off-season work with his quarterback so he can cut down on the dropped passes that plagued him his rookie season.

                            Just who will be throwing those passes to the Broncos wide receiver was the subject of some musing during Jeudy’s media tour for Old Spice.

                            Denver safety Kareem Jackson, who played with Deshaun Watson in Houston in 2017-18, said in a recent interview with TMZ Sports that he’s had conversations with the Texans’ disgruntled quarterback and that Watson expressed that “Denver is a place that he’s interesting in landing.”

                            Watson has requested a trade and the Texans say they're not interested in dealing him.

                            Jeudy chimed in Thursday.

                            “It would be exciting to have Deshaun Watson there” in Denver, Jeudy told ESPN radio. “You know he’s a great quarterback. He’s had a great career at Houston. We are looking forward to a decision.”


                            Jeudy also told The Associated Press that Broncos incumbent starter Drew Lock “is a great quarterback” and that he was eager to work with him in the coming months to establish a better rhythm heading into the 2021 season.

                            Lock’s standing as the Broncos starter has been the subject of speculation in Denver following a so-so second season and the hiring of new general manager George Paton.

                            Paton, according to the Dan Patrick Show, offered Lock to Detroit along with the ninth overall pick in the NFL draft for QB Matthew Stafford before the Lions dealt Stafford to the Rams for Jared Goff in a blockbuster deal.

                            Asked about the trade rumours swirling around Lock, who led the league with 18 turnovers last season, Jeudy said on a Zoom interview from Florida, “That’s not in my situation to be handling, but I feel like Drew is a great quarterback.”

                            “As of right now, I ain’t hear nothing but that he is my quarterback and I’m ready for next season so we can do better and be better than we were last year,” added Jeudy, who partnered with Old Spice to promote the brand’s #ThisOrThatSBLV Challenge on TikTok.

                            Jeudy, the former Alabama star and 15th overall pick in last year’s NFL draft, caught 52 passes for 856 yards and three touchdowns in his rookie season, well shy of expectations.

                            Regarded as the best route runner to come out of college in at least a decade, Jeudy proved his hands weren’t nearly as ready for the NFL.

                            He had two crucial drops in a season-opening loss to Tennessee and dropped a half dozen passes in a 19-16 loss to the Chargers in Week 16.

                            Coach Vic Fangio said he hoped that would be a “defining moment” in his career and Jeudy responded with a season-high 140-yard game against the Raiders in Week 17 that included a 92-yard TD that was the longest pass play in the league in 2020.

                            Catching passes from his quarterback ahead of any off-season program is the next step in Jeudy’s wide receiver rehab and something nobody in the league was allowed to do last year because of the coronavirus pandemic.

                            “Oh yeah, just getting ready for the off-season, just knowing each other’s tendencies, getting the timing down pat, it’s going to help us a lot during the regular season,” Jeudy said. “The only thing I really need to work on is my hands. I feel I had too many drops that led me to a lot of missed opportunities.”

                            ___

                            Follow Arnie Melendrez Stapleton on Twitter: http://twitter.com/arniestapleton

                            ___

                            More AP NFL: https://apnews.com/NFL and https://twitter.com/AP_NFL

                            Arnie Stapleton, The Associated Press

                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                            Can's comments: I am one for pushing the Watson to Denver possibility, even as remote as it may be. But Jeudy's comment seems irresponsible (if this is accurate). "It would be exciting to have Deshaun Watson there", in Denver. "We are looking forward to a decision." Seriously??!! Like it or not, you don't talk positively about the potential for a new starting QB (from another team) to take over from your current QB. How would Lock feel about that? Lock should respond with, "I sure hope we can replace Jeudy with Adams, if Green Bay is receptive."

                            But the other bolded point is interesting, that Paton offered Lock and our 1st rounder to Detroit for Stafford. I think this is factual, and if so, Paton is not playing it safe. I kind of like that!
                            Last edited by CanDB; 02-04-2021, 08:50 PM.

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                            • Apparently the Broncos offered the 9th overall and Lock in exchange for Stafford. The writing is on the wall for Lock

                              https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/rep...200803674.html
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                              • I saw a trade by fan sided that looks like this:
                                Denver gets Watson.
                                Houston gets 3 first(2021,2022, 2023), Lock and either Hamilton or Hamler. They also added that if Houston doesn't want Lock, then Denver could and should offer Sutton and keep Hamler.
                                So Hamilton and Sutton with the picks.
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