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  • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
    If we’re eliminated from the playoffs then the offense didn’t improve enough. Flacco is on the decline and extra chemistry and knowledge of the offense won’t offset that, at best it’ll be a counterbalance and we’ll stay in the same position. If Flacco doesn’t make the playoffs, then he didn’t earn the right to start next season without a real QB competition.
    I think their should be a competition at every position. Lock didn’t show much in the preseason because this offense was still being put together.
    Bottom line is Flacco is better right now than Lock and should start if healthy.
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    • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
      Knowing what we have in lock is the number 1 reason why I believe starting him this year is a horrible decision.
      Lock isn’t ready but let’s start him week 10 and if he struggles we will draft another qb instead of getting a top 10 olineman, receiver, or defensive player.
      How did drafting Tommy Maddox instead of getting Elway Carl Pickens work?
      How bout drafting Philip Rivers instead of building around Brees and adding Larry Fitzgerald?

      We know we need another 1 or 2 receiving weapons and at the least 2 or 3 olineman, but let’s throw an inexperienced QB in there and see what he can do on an offense that needs more talent and is still learning its identity.
      Anybody that wants Lock to be our future does not want to see him this year in our current offense.
      Those of us who aren’t convinced he’s a potential franchise QB want to see if he can be put in adverse conditions and at least flash potential. Many Bronco fans are also sick of the slow development approach since it’s been nothing but counterproductive with two high draft pick QBs under Elway so far.

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      • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
        Knowing what we have in lock is the number 1 reason why I believe starting him this year is a horrible decision.
        Lock isn’t ready but let’s start him week 10 and if he struggles we will draft another qb instead of getting a top 10 olineman, receiver, or defensive player.
        How did drafting Tommy Maddox instead of getting Elway Carl Pickens work?
        How bout drafting Philip Rivers instead of building around Brees and adding Larry Fitzgerald?

        We know we need another 1 or 2 receiving weapons and at the least 2 or 3 olineman, but let’s throw an inexperienced QB in there and see what he can do on an offense that needs more talent and is still learning its identity.
        Anybody that wants Lock to be our future does not want to see him this year in our current offense.
        I disagree with that. I think if you want Lock to be our future, you 100% want to see him out there this year getting his feet wet, especially in a lost season. Scrangerello does a lot of things on offense that Lock would excel at, and it would even force Scrangerello to lean heavily on the run, which I believe is the way we need to be each and every week to have success anyway. This Flacco 35 plus throws a game non-sense in one possession games is pathetic.

        I could reference over 10 examples from the past 3 years where teams have turned to the young guy throughout the season, despite the team overall looking bad, to have the young guy come in and at least prove temporarily in some capacity, that they are worthy of building around into the future. Those two examples you use there, they really don't mean anything at all. Are you comparing benching Joe Flacco at age 34 for a rookie quarterback, to the Chargers moving on from an injured Drew Brees at 26 for Phillip Rivers ? And Rivers went on to have a Hall of Fame career.

        Also, this idea of developing a young guy from the sidelines behind a veteran, what are the examples of it working out in a positive way ? Yes, you can say Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes, but these are the outliers, how many teams have tried to develop young guys behind veterans and it hasn't worked out ? I think if a young guy can play, they will get out there and show flashes when given their chance, they will improve from week to week, and if they can't, you know it might not be the guy to build around in the future.

        Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
        No reason?
        How bout to continue to improve our offense like we have done each week.

        Flacco will be the starter next year and he needs to keep building chemistry with offensive players.

        Starting Lock, we will lose Flacco’s trust and possibly hurt Lock more than help him.
        He hasn’t earned an opportunity to start period!
        Flacco is not in a position to act like a diva, play the hurt victim, demand a trade or release, or act any type of way detrimental to the team in the situation if he was benched, at this point he should be happy with being on an NFL roster. I personally don't see Flacco being here long-term, and I think the day this season is officially lost, we turn this thing over to Lock if he is healthy, and see what he can do. Scrangerello loves to run these naked bootlegs, loves to move the pocket getting his quarterback out on the edge throwing on the move, Lock could execute a lot of these play calls better than Flacco right now in my opinion.

        I am always of the opinion as soon as the season is lost, play all the young guys, hope that you find a couple of quality players who might be part of the long-term plans, and reset the thing in the off-season ready for next year. I also hope for loses in that situation as I want the best rookies we can possibly get for the team moving forward, but that is a different topic. Look at the value in playing young guys just this last week, Purcell and Johnson might have just established themselves as players we can develop and have around long-term.

        Embracing a youth movement is something Elway should of done 3 years ago, instead of wasting everyone time developing no one, giving us back to back and probably back losing seasons, while overpaying a bunch of overrated veterans in the process, because he thought we were talented enough to compete when we obviously weren't.

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        • Originally posted by johnlimburg
          I disagree with that. I think if you want Lock to be our future, you 100% want to see him out there this year getting his feet wet, especially in a lost season. Scrangerello does a lot of things on offense that Lock would excel at, and it would even force Scrangerello to lean heavily on the run, which I believe is the way we need to be each and every week to have success anyway. This Flacco 35 plus throws a game non-sense in one possession games is pathetic.

          I could reference over 10 examples from the past 3 years where teams have turned to the young guy throughout the season, despite the team overall looking bad, to have the young guy come in and at least prove temporarily in some capacity, that they are worthy of building around into the future. Those two examples you use there, they really don't mean anything at all. Are you comparing benching Joe Flacco at age 34 for a rookie quarterback, to the Chargers moving on from an injured Drew Brees at 26 for Phillip Rivers ? And Rivers went on to have a Hall of Fame career.

          Also, this idea of developing a young guy from the sidelines behind a veteran, what are the examples of it working out in a positive way ? Yes, you can say Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes, but these are the outliers, how many teams have tried to develop young guys behind veterans and it hasn't worked out ? I think if a young guy can play, they will get out there and show flashes when given their chance, they will improve from week to week, and if they can't, you know it might not be the guy to build around in the future.



          Flacco is not in a position to act like a diva, play the hurt victim, demand a trade or release, or act any type of way detrimental to the team in the situation if he was benched, at this point he should be happy with being on an NFL roster. I personally don't see Flacco being here long-term, and I think the day this season is officially lost, we turn this thing over to Lock if he is healthy, and see what he can do. Scrangerello loves to run these naked bootlegs, loves to move the pocket getting his quarterback out on the edge throwing on the move, Lock could execute a lot of these play calls better than Flacco right now in my opinion.

          I am always of the opinion as soon as the season is lost, play all the young guys, hope that you find a couple of quality players who might be part of the long-term plans, and reset the thing in the off-season ready for next year. I also hope for loses in that situation as I want the best rookies we can possibly get for the team moving forward, but that is a different topic. Look at the value in playing young guys just this last week, Purcell and Johnson might have just established themselves as players we can develop and have around long-term.
          Flacco’s current position is starting QB of the Broncos and has shown leadership, showed up every day to work.
          Put us in the lead against the bears throwing a TD and a 2 pt conversion with 31 seconds left.

          Went right down the field in the final minutes vs Jacksonville

          Our defense gave up game winning drives in both those games.

          Meanwhile, Drew Lock has had his hand in a cast, but he is the future and leader this team needs?

          Sorry but grown men who have been fighting every week to get better and win want Flacco in the trenches with them not someone trying to learn the teams offense.

          Flacco’s numbers this year are better than Lock in every category because Lock is injured and can’t help this team.
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          • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
            Flacco’s current position is starting QB of the Broncos and has shown leadership, showed up every day to work.
            Put us in the lead against the bears throwing a TD and a 2 pt conversion with 31 seconds left.

            Went right down the field in the final minutes vs Jacksonville

            Our defense gave up game winning drives in both those games.

            Meanwhile, Drew Lock has had his hand in a cast, but he is the future and leader this team needs?

            Sorry but grown men who have been fighting every week to get better and win want Flacco in the trenches with them not someone trying to learn the teams offense.

            Flacco’s numbers this year are better than Lock in every category because Lock is injured and can’t help this team.
            I am not saying Flacco is the problem, I think he is doing okay, enough to get us some wins, especially in the clutch as you point out. With 2 more defensive stops we would be 3-2 right now, I get all that. I actually think Joe Flacco is a solid quarterback who you could go to the playoffs with year in and year out if he has a solid team around him, I argued all off-season that despite him not being amazing, he was an upgrade, and a positive move by Elway given the lack of risk associated with the move.

            But, I don't care for the argument that Flacco is turning up to work, the grown men in there grinding with him want him to play, etc. etc. These grown men are 1-4, they are not very good at their jobs, and in this hypothetical situation we are talking about, they would be eliminated from the playoff race when Lock is healthy, so they haven't done what they were paid to do. Therefore, they get no say in the possible quarterback change, as their play contributed to it happening. This is all hypothetical though, and honestly, half of the players in the locker room right now wont be here next year, we have a lot of veteran waste off contract and probably moving on at years end, thank god. So I am not concerned with if they think making a smart move for the future of the team is right or wrong.

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            • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
              I am not saying Flacco is the problem, I think he is doing okay, enough to get us some wins, especially in the clutch as you point out. With 2 more defensive stops we would be 3-2 right now, I get all that. I actually think Joe Flacco is a solid quarterback who you could go to the playoffs with year in and year out if he has a solid team around him, I argued all off-season that despite him not being amazing, he was an upgrade, and a positive move by Elway given the lack of risk associated with the move.

              But, I don't care for the argument that Flacco is turning up to work, the grown men in there grinding with him want him to play, etc. etc. These grown men are 1-4, they are not very good at their jobs, and in this hypothetical situation we are talking about, they would be eliminated from the playoff race when Lock is healthy, so they haven't done what they were paid to do. Therefore, they get no say in the possible quarterback change, as their play contributed to it happening. This is all hypothetical though, and honestly, half of the players in the locker room right now wont be here next year, we have a lot of veteran waste off contract and probably moving on at years end, thank god. So I am not concerned with if they think making a smart move for the future of the team is right or wrong.
              It’s not a smart move for the team or Lock.

              What if Lock gets injured or is just lost?
              Then going into 2020 monn BJJ Osuna is gonna want to come here in FA,
              Or
              Then we draft another qb in 2020 instead of adding what the team really needs on oline, WR, CB, ILB or DL. Then that kid and Flacco have a competition, and let’s say Flacco wins out ( knowing the offense) or the rookie takes over and doesn’t play well, meanwhile Lock is 3rd string because the 4 games he played in 2019 he didn’t look good.

              And then we’re back here in 2020 at 1-4 again with Flacco, a 1st rd qb, and 2nd rd QB and a team with holes.
              Sorry we invest more in Lock by letting Flacco play out this year and bringing in the pieces we need in offseason and giving Lock a red shirt year ( no hits, no picks to dwell on in offseason)
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              • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                It’s not a smart move for the team or Lock.

                What if Lock gets injured or is just lost?
                Then going into 2020 monn BJJ Osuna is gonna want to come here in FA,
                Or
                Then we draft another qb in 2020 instead of adding what the team really needs on oline, WR, CB, ILB or DL. Then that kid and Flacco have a competition, and let’s say Flacco wins out ( knowing the offense) or the rookie takes over and doesn’t play well, meanwhile Lock is 3rd string because the 4 games he played in 2019 he didn’t look good.

                And then we’re back here in 2020 at 1-4 again with Flacco, a 1st rd qb, and 2nd rd QB and a team with holes.
                Sorry we invest more in Lock by letting Flacco play out this year and bringing in the pieces we need in offseason and giving Lock a red shirt year ( no hits, no picks to dwell on in offseason)
                Lots of what ifs in the negative here. What if he plays this year and is as good or (clutch my pearls) plays better than Flacco? What if it goes to plan and he plays well enough to know he is the guy going forward and can invest in other much needed positions? You invest more by seeing what lies ahead earlier rather than later. Lock can show what he's made of and they can make the determination of whether or not he needs to sit more or go ahead and start.

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                • Originally posted by Bronco51 View Post
                  Lots of what ifs in the negative here. What if he plays this year and is as good or (clutch my pearls) plays better than Flacco? What if it goes to plan and he plays well enough to know he is the guy going forward and can invest in other much needed positions? You invest more by seeing what lies ahead earlier rather than later. Lock can show what he's made of and they can make the determination of whether or not he needs to sit more or go ahead and start.
                  We invested by drafting him, if he had stayed healthy letting him start last two games at home would make sense but he is far behind and their is no reason to rush him back or into the starting role.
                  team needs to:
                  - find offensive identity
                  - fill holes on oline and receiver
                  - lock show he has the whole playbook down and can run the offense
                  Until these things happen we need to be patient and let the team develop. Lock will get his chance when he’s ready.
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                  • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                    It’s not a smart move for the team or Lock.

                    What if Lock gets injured or is just lost?
                    Then going into 2020 monn BJJ Osuna is gonna want to come here in FA,
                    Or
                    Then we draft another qb in 2020 instead of adding what the team really needs on oline, WR, CB, ILB or DL. Then that kid and Flacco have a competition, and let’s say Flacco wins out ( knowing the offense) or the rookie takes over and doesn’t play well, meanwhile Lock is 3rd string because the 4 games he played in 2019 he didn’t look good.

                    And then we’re back here in 2020 at 1-4 again with Flacco, a 1st rd qb, and 2nd rd QB and a team with holes.
                    Sorry we invest more in Lock by letting Flacco play out this year and bringing in the pieces we need in offseason and giving Lock a red shirt year ( no hits, no picks to dwell on in offseason)
                    That is completely your opinion, and not backed by recent examples anywhere around the league. You, and a lot of people are stuck in this old schol way of thinking that players need to develop on the sidelines, it just doesn't work. As I said, you can cite maybe one or two examples in Mahomes and Rodgers, but these guys are generational talents who I believe go on to have success regardless of the situation they found themselves in, you can't manufacturer what they do on the football field.

                    I also agree with putting talent around Lock, and I would love to be adding talented offensive lineman, I have been calling for it for years, but Elway likes overpaying washed up band-aid solutions in free agency. Seriously though, think about it, when has the approach you are advocating for actually worked ? It is not an approach which has netted teams anywhere around the league positive results on a consistent basis. If anything, we have 2 examples in recent years of this approach failing here. Look at Osweiler and Lynch, this approach failed.

                    All these situations you bring up are worst case scenarios by the way, which I am shocked about as you are one of the most positive posters this forum has. I tend to take the other side of the argument with playing Lock, personally. What if, we are out of the playoff race and Lock comes in, we continue to lose and it's clear we need more talent around him. However, he puts together some solid games, improves from week to week, throws maybe 5 touchdowns to 7 interceptions down the stretch, but we run a ball control type offense, utilise the athletic ability of Lock by getting him out on the edge and cutting his reads in half, and he shows promise ?

                    Look at the pre-season, Lock showed some improvement from game to game when he actually was out there learning, when he was thrown to the fire. His offensive line was butchered in the pre-season, he had no time to throw, our depth is as bad as it's ever been under Elway, and he still found away to show a couple positive signs. I also don't know how often you watched Lock in college, but he was always on the less talented team, and was always seemingly struggling in the SEC. But, he showed enough flashes in that situation to improve from year to year, enough to the point he earned being drafted in the 2nd round.

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                    • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                      That is completely your opinion, and not backed by recent examples anywhere around the league. You, and a lot of people are stuck in this old schol way of thinking that players need to develop on the sidelines, it just doesn't work. As I said, you can cite maybe one or two examples in Mahomes and Rodgers, but these guys are generational talents who I believe go on to have success regardless of the situation they found themselves in, you can't manufacturer what they do on the football field.

                      I also agree with putting talent around Lock, and I would love to be adding talented offensive lineman, I have been calling for it for years, but Elway likes overpaying washed up band-aid solutions in free agency. Seriously though, think about it, when has the approach you are advocating for actually worked ? It is not an approach which has netted teams anywhere around the league positive results on a consistent basis. If anything, we have 2 examples in recent years of this approach failing here. Look at Osweiler and Lynch, this approach failed.

                      All these situations you bring up are worst case scenarios by the way, which I am shocked about as you are one of the most positive posters this forum has. I tend to take the other side of the argument with playing Lock, personally. What if, we are out of the playoff race and Lock comes in, we continue to lose and it's clear we need more talent around him. However, he puts together some solid games, improves from week to week, throws maybe 5 touchdowns to 7 interceptions down the stretch, but we run a ball control type offense, utilise the athletic ability of Lock by getting him out on the edge and cutting his reads in half, and he shows promise ?

                      Look at the pre-season, Lock showed some improvement from game to game when he actually was out there learning, when he was thrown to the fire. His offensive line was butchered in the pre-season, he had no time to throw, our depth is as bad as it's ever been under Elway, and he still found away to show a couple positive signs. I also don't know how often you watched Lock in college, but he was always on the less talented team, and was always seemingly struggling in the SEC. But, he showed enough flashes in that situation to improve from year to year, enough to the point he earned being drafted in the 2nd round.
                      Yet Mahomes the best Qb in the league sat for a year
                      Rodger 3 seasons.

                      We already know we need more talent on the offensive side. Putting a Qb in who doesnt know the offense as well is going to hurt everyone on the offenses development.
                      Lock showed he needed alot of work and then got injured in the preseason thats why he needs to wait. He is way behind Flacco and Allen as of today.
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                      • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                        Yet Mahomes the best Qb in the league sat for a year
                        Rodger 3 seasons.

                        We already know we need more talent on the offensive side. Putting a Qb in who doesnt know the offense as well is going to hurt everyone on the offenses development.
                        Lock showed he needed alot of work and then got injured in the preseason thats why he needs to wait. He is way behind Flacco and Allen as of today.
                        Do you imagine Mahomes and Rodgers would have busted had they not sit? Is that your take? Also how is he way behind Allen? That statement doesn’t seem to be based on anything substantial.

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                        • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                          Yet Mahomes the best Qb in the league sat for a year
                          Rodger 3 seasons.

                          We already know we need more talent on the offensive side. Putting a Qb in who doesnt know the offense as well is going to hurt everyone on the offenses development.
                          Lock showed he needed alot of work and then got injured in the preseason thats why he needs to wait. He is way behind Flacco and Allen as of today.
                          Anymore examples over the past 15 years since Rodgers entered the league ? Anyone besides arguably 2 of the best quarterbacks in the game at the minute who were both first round picks ? Do you believe that sitting for a year really had that much impact on their careers that it manufactured them into elite players ? That seems like a stretch for me, and if it was due to that, I believe we would see more than 2 solid examples in 15 years of teams taking this approach.

                          Again, hurting everyone's development on offense is completely your opinion, I don't see it that way. You transition to a rookie, you increase how often you run the ball, which is 100% the strength of our offense. Right now our offensive lineman at every single spot, all 5 guys are much better as run blockers than they are as pass blockers, so no more 50 passing attempts in a game, we play to their strengths. We also have a nice tandem of running backs who should be getting the ball more, you feed them and don't put Lock in bad situations behind the poor pass blocking offense line.

                          Lock is also more athletic than Flacco, he can run the bootlegs, the roll outs, and threaten to run the ball as well, while reading only half of the field. What development would be hurt by this ? We are averaging 18 points per game, we are not blowing up an efficient or even remotely solid offense by changing quarterbacks, and the overlying issue with your argument, Flacco is not the future of this team, so in a losing season, it's just wasted reps in my opinion. And don't tell me Sanders will be annoyed, he netter us a total of -1 yards on offense last week when you account for his penalty, Flacco and him are not on the same page as of this point of time.

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                          • Originally posted by BeelzeBob View Post
                            Do you imagine Mahomes and Rodgers would have busted had they not sit? Is that your take? Also how is he way behind Allen? That statement doesn’t seem to be based on anything substantial.
                            Saying Rodgers and Mahomes didnt need to sit is a fantasy cause they did sit and the reality both were able to come into offenses they new well and were tweaked to fit their skill sets, not thrown into the fire to soon.

                            Explain your proof he knows the offense better than Allen, last I checked he has been on IR while Allen has practiced every week.

                            Denver Broncos Depth Chart
                            QB1 Flacco QB2 Allen

                            IR
                            - Lock
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                            • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
                              Anymore examples over the past 15 years since Rodgers entered the league ? Anyone besides arguably 2 of the best quarterbacks in the game at the minute who were both first round picks ? Do you believe that sitting for a year really had that much impact on their careers that it manufactured them into elite players ? That seems like a stretch for me, and if it was due to that, I believe we would see more than 2 solid examples in 15 years of teams taking this approach.

                              Again, hurting everyone's development on offense is completely your opinion, I don't see it that way. You transition to a rookie, you increase how often you run the ball, which is 100% the strength of our offense. Right now our offensive lineman at every single spot, all 5 guys are much better as run blockers than they are as pass blockers, so no more 50 passing attempts in a game, we play to their strengths. We also have a nice tandem of running backs who should be getting the ball more, you feed them and don't put Lock in bad situations behind the poor pass blocking offense line.

                              Lock is also more athletic than Flacco, he can run the bootlegs, the roll outs, and threaten to run the ball as well, while reading only half of the field. What development would be hurt by this ? We are averaging 18 points per game, we are not blowing up an efficient or even remotely solid offense by changing quarterbacks, and the overlying issue with your argument, Flacco is not the future of this team, so in a losing season, it's just wasted reps in my opinion. And don't tell me Sanders will be annoyed, he netter us a total of -1 yards on offense last week when you account for his penalty, Flacco and him are not on the same page as of this point of time.
                              Yeah they both went higher than Lock and they were first round picks. Lock may need to sit even longer.
                              The Charger's started Brees before they had a team to support him, he didnt look great so they drafted Rivers. They moved on from Brees and the rest is history'
                              Brees Superbowl Champion, Rivers a great regular season Qb, and very little postseason success.
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                              • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                                Yeah they both went higher than Lock and they were first round picks. Lock may need to sit even longer.
                                The Charger's started Brees before they had a team to support him, he didnt look great so they drafted Rivers. They moved on from Brees and the rest is history'
                                Brees Superbowl Champion, Rivers a great regular season Qb, and very little postseason success.
                                In reading all of your posts you’ve made a good case that Elway wasted a 2nd round pick on Lock. That Elway missed again on a quarterback.

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