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  • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

    I'm curious what QBs (and several other positions) coming out of college simply drop into the NFL without a learning curve? I'm suspect very, very few.

    The "system" for maturing football players so they can one day play in the NFL is absolute garbage. The college game is independent from the pro game. What the NFL needs is a true minor league system that is available to players coming out of high school to grow them into true NFL pros. However, that won't happen, as long as colleges can make money off of taking advantage of the college players. College football is just a money maker for the school and the staff, and certainly not the players.

    So, pretty much with most rookie QBs (and again, other positions too), an NFL team had better be prepared to nurse them along during their learning process if they want to win soon and also grow them into franchise players. Lock may not have the skills to be a good/franchise QB. But, that's not a given. The "system" (aka environment) he was provided to grow him into the best he can be was absolute crap. The Broncos really didn't help him the best they could. So, we may never know how good he could've been.
    So, it's on the Broncos to make sure he learns properly? It's not on Lock to take the initiative to study and grow? He had his entire rookie year to embrace and engulf himself in the studies portion of being an NFL QB.

    If given enough time I'm sure Lock could be a serviceable QB. There is a reason why coaches and our new GM doesn't like him. We are not behind closed doors. Did Paton come in and talk to offensive players/personal? Did he base his judgement out of thin air?

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out QB is what is holding this team back. One of Patons 1st actions of a GM was to replace Lock. I have to believe he was briefed on the entire view point of Lock and quickly made his determination. If coaches and players don't believe in Lock now they won't next year or any years after that......he doesn't have it

    Comment


    • Can't say I'm surprised that they had to dumb down the playbook. Lock's poor decision making makes it believable. He can't process what he sees, his read progressions are poor and his pocket awareness is not good.

      It's becoming more clear he's not the answer at QB.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

        I'm curious what QBs (and several other positions) coming out of college simply drop into the NFL without a learning curve? I'm suspect very, very few.

        The "system" for maturing football players so they can one day play in the NFL is absolute garbage. The college game is independent from the pro game. What the NFL needs is a true minor league system that is available to players coming out of high school to grow them into true NFL pros. However, that won't happen, as long as colleges can make money off of taking advantage of the college players. College football is just a money maker for the school and the staff, and certainly not the players.

        So, pretty much with most rookie QBs (and again, other positions too), an NFL team had better be prepared to nurse them along during their learning process if they want to win soon and also grow them into franchise players. Lock may not have the skills to be a good/franchise QB. But, that's not a given. The "system" (aka environment) he was provided to grow him into the best he can be was absolute crap. The Broncos really didn't help him the best they could. So, we may never know how good he could've been.
        Its called the eye test. Some guys pass it and some guys dont. All the franchise QB's in this league passed the eye test in preseason or a FEW regular season games. At this point like 90% of reasonable bronco fans, we're still waiting for a QB to show up in Denver.

        The NFL's a passing league now. You dont need 3-4 years to develop a QB anymore since they are getting 40-50 opportunities to the throw the ball down the field and read defenses each game.

        Lock had 599 attempts in 2019/2020 18 games started

        Big Ben had 563 attempts in 2004/2005 25 games started

        Rivers had 482 attempts in 2005/2006 18 games started

        Elway had 639 attempts in 1983/1984 26 games started

        Cutler had 634 attempts in 2006/2007 21 games started

        E.Manning had 754 attempts in 2004/2005 23 games started

        Willson had 800 attempt in 2012/2013 32 games started

        Brady had 1014 attempts in 2001/2002 30 games started

        Luck had 1197 attempts in 2012/2013 32 games started


        Can we please stop making excuses for LOCK hes not the QB of the future here. With almost 600 attempts in 18 games nothings clicked yet.
        Last edited by rst08tierney; 02-14-2021, 08:48 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

          So, it's on the Broncos to make sure he learns properly? It's not on Lock to take the initiative to study and grow? He had his entire rookie year to embrace and engulf himself in the studies portion of being an NFL QB.

          If given enough time I'm sure Lock could be a serviceable QB. There is a reason why coaches and our new GM doesn't like him. We are not behind closed doors. Did Paton come in and talk to offensive players/personal? Did he base his judgement out of thin air?

          It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out QB is what is holding this team back. One of Patons 1st actions of a GM was to replace Lock. I have to believe he was briefed on the entire view point of Lock and quickly made his determination. If coaches and players don't believe in Lock now they won't next year or any years after that......he doesn't have it

          Ok, tell ya what. I'm gonna send you to four years of a mechanical engineering program at, oh, say School of Mines or CSU or CU. Then, I'm going to hire you as a structural analyst, and throw you in front of a software like Marq or maybe even something relatively dumbed down like Autodesk's FEA package (which is really Algor). I'll tell you to take 6 months, go through the tutorials, and then I'm going to give you a structural analysis problem of wind loadings on wind turbine blades which are lay-ups of different anisotropic, non-linear materials joined by a variety of adhesives. You're to give me the design factor of safety for that blade. Ya know what? You're going to fail miserably.

          A good organization understands that when you bring in people without years of experience at a position, whether that's an NFL team or an engineering team like I described, it's up to you to make sure you give them the proper training so you can at least evaluate their potential, if not give you an accurate example of what they can do. Yes, it was up to Lock to study. No doubt. But, what did they do for him? Does the team even have a VR system yet? I know for years they didn't. I also know they brought in Flacco, who was a worn out QB at best. What was he going to teach Lock, while lock was on IR? How to turn a 7 step drop into an 11 step drop then get sacked? They had a rookie OC that first year. That's not good. Then, they toss him and bring in an OC who is certainly not in the discussions of the good OC's in the NFL.

          I've seen NFL teams so ill prepared to set up their teams. The Broncos has been one of them. It's why they need to guess their way into success, because they sure as hell haven't shown the ability to do it based on their decisions and actions. Could've Lock done better? Don't know. I do know what's visible to us sure as hell doesn't look like a solid plan with execution to grow a 2nd round QB in the NFL. Will Paton change that with personnel? Dunno either. But, he was assistance GM when they hired Cousins, and we see how that turned out. He doesn't have a glowing resume that inspires confidence at the QB position, either.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rst08tierney View Post
            ...
            Can we please stop making excuses for LOCK hes not the QB of the future here. With almost 600 attempts in 18 games nothings clicked yet.
            Tell me where in my post I said Lock would be the QB of the future? Read my post c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y, particularly the 5th last sentence of my post. Jeezus, the strawman crap people make up to "prove" their point.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post


              Ok, tell ya what. I'm gonna send you to four years of a mechanical engineering program at, oh, say School of Mines or CSU or CU. Then, I'm going to hire you as a structural analyst, and throw you in front of a software like Marq or maybe even something relatively dumbed down like Autodesk's FEA package (which is really Algor). I'll tell you to take 6 months, go through the tutorials, and then I'm going to give you a structural analysis problem of wind loadings on wind turbine blades which are lay-ups of different anisotropic, non-linear materials joined by a variety of adhesives. You're to give me the design factor of safety for that blade. Ya know what? You're going to fail miserably.

              A good organization understands that when you bring in people without years of experience at a position, whether that's an NFL team or an engineering team like I described, it's up to you to make sure you give them the proper training so you can at least evaluate their potential, if not give you an accurate example of what they can do. Yes, it was up to Lock to study. No doubt. But, what did they do for him? Does the team even have a VR system yet? I know for years they didn't. I also know they brought in Flacco, who was a worn out QB at best. What was he going to teach Lock, while lock was on IR? How to turn a 7 step drop into an 11 step drop then get sacked? They had a rookie OC that first year. That's not good. Then, they toss him and bring in an OC who is certainly not in the discussions of the good OC's in the NFL.

              I've seen NFL teams so ill prepared to set up their teams. The Broncos has been one of them. It's why they need to guess their way into success, because they sure as hell haven't shown the ability to do it based on their decisions and actions. Could've Lock done better? Don't know. I do know what's visible to us sure as hell doesn't look like a solid plan with execution to grow a 2nd round QB in the NFL. Will Paton change that with personnel? Dunno either. But, he was assistance GM when they hired Cousins, and we see how that turned out. He doesn't have a glowing resume that inspires confidence at the QB position, either.
              Terrible comparison..... you're talking about mechanical engineering vs a GAME!! A game that kids play All he has to do memorize plays and execute them. Pretty sure kids aren't asked to design engines or structures. Not that hard to ask an adult to put the ball in the end zone and organize players on a chess board to help him out
              Last edited by JvDub95; 02-14-2021, 09:01 AM.

              Comment


              • If Scangerello hadn’t been fired, would the playbook have been dumbed down?

                I don’t think it’s a surprise that Lock struggled with a new offense.

                I won’t complain if he’s replaced.

                I won’t complain if he gets another shot either, unless Justin Fields happens to be available at #9 and they pass on him.
                My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                You Mad Bro?
                Don’t Be A Mean Girl
                Hell No!!! To the Texans Quarterback!!!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

                  Terrible comparison..... you're talking about mechanical engineering vs a GAME!! A game that kids play All he has to do memorize plays and execute them. Pretty sure kids aren't asked to design engines or structures. Not that hard to ask an adult to put the ball in the end zone and organize players on a chess board to help him out
                  Maybe it is a terrible comparison. The M.E. problem might be too simple. The variables in the mechanical engineering problem are constrained. We know the physics behind it. It isn't like one blade will experience the forces differently than another, given the same geometry, weight, rotational moment of inertia, materials, size, etc. That is all easily fixed and understood.
                  The NFL game, on the other hand, isn't defined by the laws of physics. The plays might be common, but each situation is different because of changes in personnel, game situation, conditions, etc. That is not an easily understood situation.
                  Maybe I should've used an example where I put you into a regulatory position in a medical company. There are a multitude of variables not described by the laws of physics, and there's no one "right" answer. Arguably, the M.E. problem is simpler than the NFL situation and the regulatory situation, since the M.E. problem has laws behind it that don't change.

                  The point was taking an inexperienced person, giving them minimal/poor training, throwing them into the fire, then expecting them not to get burned. Did the Broncos do the best job at that? Nope. I don't trust them to do the job right in the future, either, because they haven't in the past (and neither have their coaches). All I can hope for is the Broncos keep throwing new QB candidates at it until one sticks.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                    Maybe it is a terrible comparison. The M.E. problem might be too simple. The variables in the mechanical engineering problem are constrained. We know the physics behind it. It isn't like one blade will experience the forces differently than another, given the same geometry, weight, rotational moment of inertia, materials, size, etc. That is all easily fixed and understood.
                    The NFL game, on the other hand, isn't defined by the laws of physics. The plays might be common, but each situation is different because of changes in personnel, game situation, conditions, etc. That is not an easily understood situation.
                    Maybe I should've used an example where I put you into a regulatory position in a medical company. There are a multitude of variables not described by the laws of physics, and there's no one "right" answer. Arguably, the M.E. problem is simpler than the NFL situation and the regulatory situation, since the M.E. problem has laws behind it that don't change.

                    The point was taking an inexperienced person, giving them minimal/poor training, throwing them into the fire, then expecting them not to get burned. Did the Broncos do the best job at that? Nope. I don't trust them to do the job right in the future, either, because they haven't in the past (and neither have their coaches). All I can hope for is the Broncos keep throwing new QB candidates at it until one sticks.
                    The issue is your interpretation of minimal training. You're saying that Broncos QB coach isn't capable of teaching. You put zero responsibility on Lock to actually embrace and learn on his own. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

                    By the way, condescending verbage like that is a good way to make friends in life
                    Last edited by JvDub95; 02-14-2021, 09:34 AM.

                    Comment


                    • At senior bowl, insiders were stating that many are down on Lock because he couldn't handle the full offense.

                      https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/...-insider-rumor
                      Superbowl 50 Champions!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheAsianPA View Post
                        At senior bowl, insiders were stating that many are down on Lock because he couldn't handle the full offense.

                        https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/...-insider-rumor
                        It was a new offense and Shurmur should have adjusted sooner.
                        My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                        You Mad Bro?
                        Don’t Be A Mean Girl
                        Hell No!!! To the Texans Quarterback!!!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

                          The issue is your interpretation of minimal training. You're saying that Broncos QB coach isn't capable of teaching. You put zero responsibility on Lock to actually embrace and learn on his own. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

                          By the way, condescending verbage like that is a good way to make friends in life
                          I said that I don't know if Lock could've done better. That isn't the same as absolving him of all responsibility. I never said anything about the Broncos QB coach...but you saying I did must make it true, right? LOL! I mentioned the OC only. I think Shurmur's doing a crappy job. I think the organization did a crappy job by bringing in a 2nd round QB, a lousy, washed up vet (Flaccid), then flipping OC's to a crappy OC.

                          The Broncos record reflects the entire team. Yes, that includes Lock and his performance. It's also why I've been banging the drum here to leverage that #9 pick and try to get the best QB they can....because Lock has proven that under these circumstances he isn't that franchise QB and likely won't be. These circumstances aren't changing other than maybe getting someone else in at QB that can perform while not relying on what's proven to be an incompetent staff. The losing record is the entire team's resume, inclusive of the staff, and not only Lock's.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by sra84 View Post
                            Can't say I'm surprised that they had to dumb down the playbook. Lock's poor decision making makes it believable. He can't process what he sees, his read progressions are poor and his pocket awareness is not good.

                            It's becoming more clear he's not the answer at QB.
                            Different kinds of intelligence, though. Processing what you see is problem solving, and knowing the playbook is crystalized. Knowing the answers and understanding where everyone is on a given play then incorporates memory retrieval and spacial intelligence. That could be sort of related to his pocket awareness, but there's a lot going on there. Internal clock, spacial, problem solving (where's the blitz/pressure/hot route), while scanning the field unless the QB has established where to go with the ball.

                            This is why I don't think that anyone can just classify someone as slow (I know you're not saying that, sra), because they underperform at certain tasks. Unless they're impaired, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I know people who are impressive problem solvers, but they can't write a coherent short story, and watching them socialize with people they don't know, especially women is painful. I think that some quarterbacks do have inherent advantages, and I do believe that coaching/team is extremely important, but I ultimately think that a recurring trait amongst all good NFL Quarterbacks is a great work ethic. You can overcome a lot with repetition and familiarity. And this is not just mental, but physical. Steph wasn't born a great three point shooter, and Griffey Jr wasn't born a great hitter. Speak to anyone who has ever worked out for long periods on a double end bag, for example. Your reflexes and reaction times are significantly improved. And it's not just that. You're muscle memory changes naturally. You become more loose, and punches become more fluid. Hand eye coordination, reflexes, and form are to a large degree a matter or repetition or familiarity, as are all things. Neuroplasticity.

                            With all that said, there's nothing you can do about a guy who is a better athlete, or a great problem solver. A guy like John Elway's athleticism, a guy like Manning's tactical ability, and a guy like Brady's strategical ability. If Manning was Pyrrhus, Brady was Pompey. I guess that would make Elway Spartacus, and Montana Hannibal if I'm going to take it a step farther.

                            So that's a long way for me to say that I don't necessarily think dumbing down the playbook, if true, is an indictment of Lock.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                              Different kinds of intelligence, though. Processing what you see is problem solving, and knowing the playbook is crystalized. Knowing the answers and understanding where everyone is on a given play then incorporates memory retrieval and spacial intelligence. That could be sort of related to his pocket awareness, but there's a lot going on there. Internal clock, spacial, problem solving (where's the blitz/pressure/hot route), while scanning the field unless the QB has established where to go with the ball.

                              This is why I don't think that anyone can just classify someone as slow (I know you're not saying that, sra), because they underperform at certain tasks. Unless they're impaired, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I know people who are impressive problem solvers, but they can't write a coherent short story, and watching them socialize with people they don't know, especially women is painful. I think that some quarterbacks do have inherent advantages, and I do believe that coaching/team is extremely important, but I ultimately think that a recurring trait amongst all good NFL Quarterbacks is a great work ethic. You can overcome a lot with repetition and familiarity. And this is not just mental, but physical. Steph wasn't born a great three point shooter, and Griffey Jr wasn't born a great hitter. Speak to anyone who has ever worked out for long periods on a double end bag, for example. Your reflexes and reaction times are significantly improved. And it's not just that. You're muscle memory changes naturally. You become more loose, and punches become more fluid. Hand eye coordination, reflexes, and form are to a large degree a matter or repetition or familiarity, as are all things. Neuroplasticity.

                              With all that said, there's nothing you can do about a guy who is a better athlete, or a great problem solver. A guy like John Elway's athleticism, a guy like Manning's tactical ability, and a guy like Brady's strategical ability. If Manning was Pyrrhus, Brady was Pompey. I guess that would make Elway Spartacus, and Montana Hannibal if I'm going to take it a step farther.

                              So that's a long way for me to say that I don't necessarily think dumbing down the playbook, if true, is an indictment of Lock.
                              Actually the two tie in together. If a QB can't grasp the entire playbook then it's not a leap that he struggles with in-game reads. This isn't about his physical traits, it's his mental acumen.

                              HIs struggles are serious concerns if he's considered to still be our franchise QB. There has been no improvement in his play. And I don't want to hear excuses about a covid off-season and a new OC. Others, including rookie QB's, showed more than Lock. That's not a good sign.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by sra84 View Post

                                Actually the two tie in together. If a QB can't grasp the entire playbook then it's not a leap that he struggles with in-game reads. This isn't about his physical traits, it's his mental acumen.

                                HIs struggles are serious concerns if he's considered to still be our franchise QB. There has been no improvement in his play. And I don't want to hear excuses about a covid off-season and a new OC. Others, including rookie QB's, showed more than Lock. That's not a good sign.
                                So you’re going to blame Lock for Shurmur failing to devise an offense that Lock can operate?

                                Maybe Lock would have produced better results if Shurmur did a better job of utilizing Lock’s strengths rather than asking him to do things he isn’t suited for.
                                My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                                You Mad Bro?
                                Don’t Be A Mean Girl
                                Hell No!!! To the Texans Quarterback!!!

                                Comment

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