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  • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
    It’s not a smart move for the team or Lock.

    What if Lock gets injured or is just lost?
    Then going into 2020 monn BJJ Osuna is gonna want to come here in FA,
    Or
    Then we draft another qb in 2020 instead of adding what the team really needs on oline, WR, CB, ILB or DL. Then that kid and Flacco have a competition, and let’s say Flacco wins out ( knowing the offense) or the rookie takes over and doesn’t play well, meanwhile Lock is 3rd string because the 4 games he played in 2019 he didn’t look good.

    And then we’re back here in 2020 at 1-4 again with Flacco, a 1st rd qb, and 2nd rd QB and a team with holes.
    Sorry we invest more in Lock by letting Flacco play out this year and bringing in the pieces we need in offseason and giving Lock a red shirt year ( no hits, no picks to dwell on in offseason)
    Even if Lock doesn’t look good we aren’t drafting a QB. Brock never looked special here even at 5-2 he was just ok but no competition was ever brought in for him. Paxton Lynch was given 2 straight seasons to beat out a 7th round pick. He couldn’t beat out Siemian or Kelly. Lock will get at least 2 seasons before another QB is looked at. Elway will attempt to build the team around him. And Lock isn’t the type of guy to dwell on playing poorly, he improved every year at Missouri despite the talent level decreasing and he improved every game this preseason. Lock is a strong leader, one the team can rally behind.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
      Even if Lock doesn’t look good we aren’t drafting a QB. Brock never looked special here even at 5-2 he was just ok but no competition was ever brought in for him. Paxton Lynch was given 2 straight seasons to beat out a 7th round pick. He couldn’t beat out Siemian or Kelly. Lock will get at least 2 seasons before another QB is looked at. Elway will attempt to build the team around him. And Lock isn’t the type of guy to dwell on playing poorly, he improved every year at Missouri despite the talent level decreasing and he improved every game this preseason. Lock is a strong leader, one the team can rally behind.
      I know we have Lock, that’s why we don’t need to play him.

      We need to build a team so when he steps in he will be successful.
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      • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
        I know we have Lock, that’s why we don’t need to play him.

        We need to build a team so when he steps in he will be successful.
        And then waste that season on his development?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
          Yeah they both went higher than Lock and they were first round picks. Lock may need to sit even longer.
          The Charger's started Brees before they had a team to support him, he didnt look great so they drafted Rivers. They moved on from Brees and the rest is history'
          Brees Superbowl Champion, Rivers a great regular season Qb, and very little postseason success.
          A 26 year old injured Drew Brees is not comparable to a 34 year old Joe Flacoo, and as bad of an example as that one is to support your argument, let's just give you that one anyway, that is 3 examples in the last 15 years. Do you not think if this approach worked, you could cite more than 3 examples in 15 years ?

          Look on the other side of the argument at the teams who threw their young guys into the mix when they weren't prepared, and the bevy of examples in just the last 3 years alone. This year already, New York done it with Eli Manning and Daniel Jones, Jacksonville were forced to do it via injury with Nick Foles and Gardner Minshew, and Carolina were forced to do it via injury with Cam Newton and Kyle Allen. Look at last year, Cleveland done it with Tyrod Taylor and Baker Mayfield, the Bills done it with Nathan Petermen and Josh Allen, the Jets done it with Josh McCown and Sam Darnold, the Ravens done it with Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson, and the Cardinals done it with Sam Bradford and Josh Rosen. We seen it the year before as well, the Bears done it with Mike Glennon and Mitchell Trubisky, the Chiefs done it with Alex Smith and Patrick Mahomes, the Texans done it with Tom Savage and Deshaun Watson.

          The only example there you could argue that their success came due to them sitting for a year is Patrick Mahomes, but sitting one season, I don't think any average player turns into a super star like he is because of that, he would of become that regardless in my opinion. But seriously, not one of these examples from the last 3 years came in and looked worse than the veteran they took over for. You can argue some of them are not playing great, sure, but they all still ended up as upgrades over the person they replaced, and only one of them had an off-season to prepare, that was Mahomes, only one of them stepped into a winning team, that was Mahomes, and not one of them was replaced in the next off-season. I would say it's pretty clear which approach is working, and which one isn't.

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          • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
            A 26 year old injured Drew Brees is not comparable to a 34 year old Joe Flacoo, and as bad of an example as that one is to support your argument, let's just give you that one anyway, that is 3 examples in the last 15 years. Do you not think if this approach worked, you could cite more than 3 examples in 15 years ?

            Look on the other side of the argument at the teams who threw their young guys into the mix when they weren't prepared, and the bevy of examples in just the last 3 years alone. This year already, New York done it with Eli Manning and Daniel Jones, Jacksonville were forced to do it via injury with Nick Foles and Gardner Minshew, and Carolina were forced to do it via injury with Cam Newton and Kyle Allen. Look at last year, Cleveland done it with Tyrod Taylor and Baker Mayfield, the Bills done it with Nathan Petermen and Josh Allen, the Jets done it with Josh McCown and Sam Darnold, the Ravens done it with Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson, and the Cardinals done it with Sam Bradford and Josh Rosen. We seen it the year before as well, the Bears done it with Mike Glennon and Mitchell Trubisky, the Chiefs done it with Alex Smith and Patrick Mahomes, the Texans done it with Tom Savage and Deshaun Watson.

            The only example there you could argue that their success came due to them sitting for a year is Patrick Mahomes, but sitting one season, I don't think any average player turns into a super star like he is because of that, he would of become that regardless in my opinion. But seriously, not one of these examples from the last 3 years came in and looked worse than the veteran they took over for. You can argue some of them are not playing great, sure, but they all still ended up as upgrades over the person they replaced, and only one of them had an off-season to prepare, that was Mahomes, only one of them stepped into a winning team, that was Mahomes, and not one of them was replaced in the next off-season. I would say it's pretty clear which approach is working, and which one isn't.
            In Mahomes first year, I don’t believe Andy Reid taught him how to move the ball from his right to left hand, while being chased and completing a pass while being tackled by Von Miller. Watching Mahomes you just can’t teach what he does. That’s not to say learning the plays and how to call protections don’t matter, but sitting for a season didn’t somehow transform the guy into a generational talent.

            Gardner Minshew is interesting as well. I don’t know how he’ll play in the long run, but that guy has some unique skills. He made some unbelievable plays vs Broncos. The moves he made in the pocket were freakish. On one play he completed a passing TD after he should have easily been sacked. No amount of time standing on the sideline will help a guy learn what he did, on the road with a guy like Von chasing him.

            As far as hurting a young players confidence, think about Daniel Jones last night. He played on the road vs New England with just about no talent on a blustery night. He played poorly and got picked off and made some bad throws. Did he lose confidence? Nope. He kept playing and what happened - threw a nice pass to Tate for a TD. He didn’t do enough to win, but how often do teams win at Gillette? My point is that he didn’t crumble into the fetal position. Just kept playing. I would bet he learned a lot from that game.

            Lock was thrown into action as a true freshman at Missouri when their starter went down. Missouri churned through coaches and had inferior talent around Lock. He didn’t back away after being beat in tough games. He kept working and learning. He did the same thing after the Hall of Fame Game. Lock wasn’t amazing by any stretch but he improved and flashed a few plays. As I recall he managed to lead the offense on a TD drive, something Flacco didn’t accomplish in preseason.
            Last edited by Fantaztic7; 10-11-2019, 05:57 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by johnlimburg View Post
              A 26 year old injured Drew Brees is not comparable to a 34 year old Joe Flacoo, and as bad of an example as that one is to support your argument, let's just give you that one anyway, that is 3 examples in the last 15 years. Do you not think if this approach worked, you could cite more than 3 examples in 15 years ?

              Look on the other side of the argument at the teams who threw their young guys into the mix when they weren't prepared, and the bevy of examples in just the last 3 years alone. This year already, New York done it with Eli Manning and Daniel Jones, Jacksonville were forced to do it via injury with Nick Foles and Gardner Minshew, and Carolina were forced to do it via injury with Cam Newton and Kyle Allen. Look at last year, Cleveland done it with Tyrod Taylor and Baker Mayfield, the Bills done it with Nathan Petermen and Josh Allen, the Jets done it with Josh McCown and Sam Darnold, the Ravens done it with Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson, and the Cardinals done it with Sam Bradford and Josh Rosen. We seen it the year before as well, the Bears done it with Mike Glennon and Mitchell Trubisky, the Chiefs done it with Alex Smith and Patrick Mahomes, the Texans done it with Tom Savage and Deshaun Watson.

              The only example there you could argue that their success came due to them sitting for a year is Patrick Mahomes, but sitting one season, I don't think any average player turns into a super star like he is because of that, he would of become that regardless in my opinion. But seriously, not one of these examples from the last 3 years came in and looked worse than the veteran they took over for. You can argue some of them are not playing great, sure, but they all still ended up as upgrades over the person they replaced, and only one of them had an off-season to prepare, that was Mahomes, only one of them stepped into a winning team, that was Mahomes, and not one of them was replaced in the next off-season. I would say it's pretty clear which approach is working, and which one isn't.
              I’m comparing Brees to Lock!!!!!!
              The chargers played him to soon.
              That team needed more help and he struggled.
              His early struggles resulted in them drafting Phillip Rivers instead of getting a guy like Fitzgerald for Brees.

              Like Brees, Lock is a second rd pick and I don’t want him taking the field until he has a better squad around him. Then we can see what he really can do.

              Deshaun Watson was a first rd pick cause he played well in big games in college,
              I think Lock went in the 2nd rd because he struggled vs Georgia and Bama.
              Last edited by 58Miller; 10-11-2019, 05:59 PM.
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              • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                In Mahomes first year, I don’t believe Andy Reid taught him how to move the ball from his right to left hand, while being chased and completing a pass while being tackled by Von Miller. Watching Mahomes you just can’t teach what he does. That’s not to say learning the plays and how to call protections don’t matter, but sitting for a season didn’t somehow transform the guy into a generational talent.

                Gardner Minshew is interesting as well. I don’t know how he’ll play in the long run, but that guy has some unique skills. He made some unbelievable plays vs Broncos. The moves he made in the pocket were freakish. On one play he completed a passing TD after he should have easily been sacked. No amount of time standing on the sideline will help a guy learn what he did, on the road with a guy like Von chasing him.

                As far as hurting a young players confidence, think about Daniel Jones last night. He played on the road vs New England with just about no talent on a blustery night. He played poorly and got picked off and made some bad throws. Did he lose confidence? Nope. He kept playing and what happened - threw a nice pass to Tate for a TD. He didn’t do enough to win, but how often do teams win at Gillette? My point is that he didn’t crumble into the fetal position. Just kept playing. I would bet he learned a lot from that game.

                Lock was thrown into action as a true freshman at Missouri when their starter went down. Missouri churned through coaches and had inferior talent around Lock. He didn’t back away after being beat in tough games. He kept working and learning. He did the same thing after the Hall of Fame Game. Lock wasn’t amazing by any stretch but he improved and flashed a few plays. As I recall he managed to lead the offense on a TD drive, something Flacco didn’t accomplish in preseason.
                Probably why Jones went in the first rd.
                Same thing with Mahomes, and Watson.
                Lock went in the second because he wasn’t as polished.
                I would like to see the list of players that were busts because they sat too long.

                I only know about guys who sat and went on to play well.
                Yes playing a qb to soon can hurt their develop meant, making them wait will not hurt them but allow them more time to transition to the league and the speed of the pro game.
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                • Don't worry everybody, John Elway has a plan, and has it all figured out!
                  (Rest assured)

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                  • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                    Probably why Jones went in the first rd.
                    Same thing with Mahomes, and Watson.
                    Lock went in the second because he wasn’t as polished.

                    I would like to see the list of players that were busts because they sat too long.

                    I only know about guys who sat and went on to play well.
                    Yes playing a qb to soon can hurt their develop meant, making them wait will not hurt them but allow them more time to transition to the league and the speed of the pro game.
                    And Minshew went in the 6th round. You’re simply throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.

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                    • Originally posted by BeelzeBob View Post
                      And Minshew went in the 6th round. You’re simply throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.
                      Minshew was brought in because Foles got injured. Right now Flacco is healthy and Lock is on IR.

                      Since you obviously believe Minshew is an example of starting a rookie immediately as a plan.
                      Is Minshew the Jags future QB or Tebowmania 2.0 ?
                      Last edited by 58Miller; 10-11-2019, 06:25 PM.
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                      • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                        Probably why Jones went in the first rd.
                        Same thing with Mahomes, and Watson.
                        Lock went in the second because he wasn’t as polished.
                        I would like to see the list of players that were busts because they sat too long.

                        I only know about guys who sat and went on to play well.
                        Yes playing a qb to soon can hurt their develop meant, making them wait will not hurt them but allow them more time to transition to the league and the speed of the pro game.
                        I don’t believe anyone other than the Giants saw Jones being picked so early. There weren’t many people saying Jones was polished before being drafted. There was a a belief he had a good foundation because of being coached by David Cutcliffe. Some noted the opposite with his completion rate less than 60% as a benchmark. Some said he didn’t have enough arm talent.

                        Regardless of where Jones was picked he started off hot but he’s struggled over the last two games. Jones quickly racked up six INTs. To be fair the injuries have piled up with the Giants. The point is that you don’t see him backing down and losing confidence. Last night’s touchdown to Golden Tate proved that point after a rough start.

                        You have no evidence Lock would lose confidence in a similar situation. In fact, Lock didn’t play well in the Hall of Fame Game. Did he lose confidence? No. He improved over the next three games.

                        You contradicted your position on playing a quarterback too soon hurts development when you cited Drew Brees. If starting too soon hurts a quarterback Brees wouldn’t have gone on to become a future Hall of Fame quarterback.

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                        • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                          Minshew was brought in because Foles got injured. Right now Flacco is healthy and Lock is on IR.

                          Since you obviously believe Minshew is an example of starting a rookie immediately as a plan.
                          Is Minshew the Jags future QB or Tebowmania 2.0 ?
                          You’re making a straw man argument about bringing in Lock immediately. Most have made it very clear they would start Lock at the point the Broncos would be eliminated from the playoffs.

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                          • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                            I don’t believe anyone other than the Giants saw Jones being picked so early. There weren’t many people saying Jones was polished before being drafted. There was a a belief he had a good foundation because of being coached by David Cutcliffe. Some noted the opposite with his completion rate less than 60% as a benchmark. Some said he didn’t have enough arm talent.

                            Regardless of where Jones was picked he started off hot but he’s struggled over the last two games. Jones quickly racked up six INTs. To be fair the injuries have piled up with the Giants. The point is that you don’t see him backing down and losing confidence. Last night’s touchdown to Golden Tate proved that point after a rough start.

                            You have no evidence Lock would lose confidence in a similar situation. In fact, Lock didn’t play well in the Hall of Fame Game. Did he lose confidence? No. He improved over the next three games.

                            You contradicted your position on playing a quarterback too soon hurts development when you cited Drew Brees. If starting too soon hurts a quarterback Brees wouldn’t have gone on to become a future Hall of Fame quarterback.
                            You have ZERO evidence it wouldnt hurt his confidence, along with zero evidence Jones is fine after throwing 3 pciks in a game,
                            It didn't hurt Brees in the long run, it di hurt the Chargers becasue they didnt realize what they had until they surrounded him with more talent.
                            We start Lock now and he struggle like he did in the preseason I dont see any benefit in that.
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                            • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post
                              You’re making a straw man argument about bringing in Lock immediately. Most have made it very clear they would start Lock at the point the Broncos would be eliminated from the playoffs.
                              No I’m not , i want Lock to stay on IR and red shirt this season. And that is being compared to a long list of first round picks and Gardner Minshew Who all started.
                              My point is the injury, if he had been with us through the first 5 weeks I would be on board giving him some late season starts, but at this point I think it’s a distraction.

                              None of the guys mentioned as first year success were on IR first 8 weeks of the season .
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                              • Originally posted by 58Miller View Post
                                You have ZERO evidence it wouldnt hurt his confidence, along with zero evidence Jones is fine after throwing 3 pciks in a game,
                                It didn't hurt Brees in the long run, it di hurt the Chargers becasue they didnt realize what they had until they surrounded him with more talent.
                                We start Lock now and he struggle like he did in the preseason I dont see any benefit in that.
                                Relax on the upper case - it doesn’t make your point more persuasive.

                                There is tangible evidence from Lock’s career at Missouri, and from camp and preseason games with the Broncos. As a true freshman at Missouri he leap frogged two returning quarterbacks as the backup to Maty Mauk. Mauk went down early and Lock was thrust into starting. Lock also played through adversity with the 2015 Missouri protests and resignations of the school President and Chancellor. The Tigers changed the head coach after his freshman year and he worked under different offensive coordinators. The lack of talent on the line and skill positions is well documented. Through those challenges Lock improved every season at Missouri. That says a lot about his character and confidence.

                                Fast forward to the Broncos with camp and preseason. The reporting and comments by Fangio and Scangarello demonstrates consistent improvement by Lock. The Hall of Fame Game wasn’t a good outing for Lock. He didn’t lose confidence after Fangio was candid about his performance. Lock went back to work and improved each week. He wasn’t perfect by any stretch however the vast majority of fans, the media and most importantly the coaches noted his progress. If a rough game hurt his confidence he wouldn’t have improved in preseason. After he injured his thumb he got up and ran another play - made a great throw on a rope (with a grade 2 ligament tear in his throwing hand). You have to have a lot of belief in yourself to make that throw with an injured hand.

                                There’s plenty of evidence he’s played through adversity, especially under the circumstances at Missouri.
                                Last edited by Fantaztic7; 10-11-2019, 07:10 PM.

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