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  • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

    And, many engineers were good at math and science for many of their childhood years, advancing in those courses through middle and high school. By the time I was in 6th grade, they were already talking to me about a career in the sciences or engineering and pointed me that direction. I still needed training when I graduated college and got in my job.. Granted, football requires special physical traits, but the whole point was even with formal preparation for a "job", the inexperienced still need training once they get the job.

    If being a great QB that could understand the playbook and read defenses was so easy, why aren't there 20 guys in rookie NFL years that are Manning-like QB's? Hell, there are plenty of athletic guys at the QB position that can throw a ball great. But, how many turn out to be great? Few.I think it's "easy" only to the layman....kinda like when the layman says things like, "well, why don't you just design it to work right?"
    My whole aim was targeted at Locks mental capabilities, hence the "dumb down" article post. I'm not sold he can handle the knowledge and distribute it on the fly like he should be able to.

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    • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

      My whole aim was targeted at Locks mental capabilities, hence the "dumb down" article post. I'm not sold he can handle the knowledge and distribute it on the fly like he should be able to.
      You might be right he can never handle the mental requirements of the position at the NFL level. All I'm adding is I wouldn't call his environment during his first couple years great, I don't believe this staff can mentor a QB who needs it, and the staff certainly wasn't prepared from the beginning for trying to make a QB of Lock's abilities somewhat successful. In fact, the whole team smells of knee-jerk reaction for many years now.

      I'm still of that mindset the Broncos should either pay big and get a guy like Watson in here...someone who might be able to compensate for the inabilities of the staff to help his game. Although the Texans did a crap job helping him and he wasn't able to be successful his last year there, he does have somewhat better players on offense here. But maybe not by much. That, or the Broncos should try to move up in the draft and roll the dice with the hope they land on a QB that can find success in this environment. Let Lock compete against those guys. He could be an ok backup, if needed.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

        You might be right he can never handle the mental requirements of the position at the NFL level. All I'm adding is I wouldn't call his environment during his first couple years great, I don't believe this staff can mentor a QB who needs it, and the staff certainly wasn't prepared from the beginning for trying to make a QB of Lock's abilities somewhat successful. In fact, the whole team smells of knee-jerk reaction for many years now.

        I'm still of that mindset the Broncos should either pay big and get a guy like Watson in here...someone who might be able to compensate for the inabilities of the staff to help his game. Although the Texans did a crap job helping him and he wasn't able to be successful his last year there, he does have somewhat better players on offense here. But maybe not by much. That, or the Broncos should try to move up in the draft and roll the dice with the hope they land on a QB that can find success in this environment. Let Lock compete against those guys. He could be an ok backup, if needed.
        In that...we are in agreement

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        • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

          And, many engineers were good at math and science for many of their childhood years, advancing in those courses through middle and high school. By the time I was in 6th grade, they were already talking to me about a career in the sciences or engineering and pointed me that direction. I still needed training when I graduated college and got in my job.. Granted, football requires special physical traits, but the whole point was even with formal preparation for a "job", the inexperienced still need training once they get the job.

          If being a great QB that could understand the playbook and read defenses was so easy, why aren't there 20 guys in rookie NFL years that are Manning-like QB's? Hell, there are plenty of athletic guys at the QB position that can throw a ball great. But, how many turn out to be great? Few.I think it's "easy" only to the layman....kinda like when the layman says things like, "well, why don't you just design it to work right?"
          I still disagree with your analogy. That was your personal experience and in the 6th grade they are not taking engineering courses.

          People can play the quarterback position just some do it better than others. Someone can go and start a small tackle leage "like in my city" and they can play qb and know what to do pretty much based off what they saw or have seen.....you can do that with engineering.

          I'm not saying your view is wrong....im just saying I don't agree with it...just like you have disagreed with some of my post in the past. It happens.
          Until we get a TRUE not name "Lock" qb we will miss the playoffs and be average at best! I'm E2DS and I approve this message! "AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW, NOW YA KNOW."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ear2dastreets View Post

            I still disagree with your analogy. That was your personal experience and in the 6th grade they are not taking engineering courses.

            People can play the quarterback position just some do it better than others. Someone can go and start a small tackle leage "like in my city" and they can play qb and know what to do pretty much based off what they saw or have seen.....you can do that with engineering.

            I'm not saying your view is wrong....im just saying I don't agree with it...just like you have disagreed with some of my post in the past. It happens.
            No, there are no engineering courses in 6th grade because you really can't engage those courses until at least you're through a trig based physics, for one. But, they can put you on a fast track to get through the math and sciences, which is what they did for some of us.

            I'm not sure you really disagree with my point. You do have some engineers that hit the ground running when they get out of college better than others. There's no doubt about that. But, to tackle the really complex problems, that's not something that happens overnight. It does take time to build up from the basics (call it a reduced playbook) to those solutions to complex problems. They still need training. You're not gonna sit down at an FEA program capable of these non-linear materials problems and know what to do and how to do it, even if you're solid in your engineering skills.

            Point was, training is important at all levels. Even guys like Manning and Elway in their rookie years fell all over themselves. And, those are guys with more talent coming out of college than a guy like Lock or even the majority of 1st round QBs. Out of the HOF 4 first round draft picks in 2018, which one knocked it out of the park year 1? None of them. Not one. Mayfield was mediocre his first year, stank it up bad his 2nd (22 TDs to 21 INTs with a 59% completion rate), but his 3rd year he was deep in the playoffs. Allen took 3 years to get going. But, I guess we all saw that coming, right? And, we all know there's zero chance Lock could turn into something by year 3, right? I call B.S. They all needed time to learn. Why should we expect Lock to be any different?

            This Broncos team hasn't shown itself capable of the most basic training. If you disagree, point me to the player in a complex position (like QB or offensive lineman) they did that with by year 2. You can't. Hell, it took them 4 seasons to get their left tackle playing decent. The QB position is much more complex, and the Broncos have shown zero ability to help their QBs. Even though I'd support them signing Watson, I wouldn't be surprised if they're still a losing team with him behind center.

            Am I saying Lock's GOING to be a great or even good QB? Hell no. But, I'm also not dumb enough to say I know he can't be. The Broncos need to invest in QBs often simply because they've proven themselves incapable of developing a good environment to properly train their players. The Broncos need luck to give them a great QB and offense, so they better go back to the casino often just to play the odds. And, again, there's no guarantee Watson can be great here. He couldn't save the Texans his last year, why should we believe he could save the Broncos, besides simply hope?
            Last edited by DiveInstructor; 02-15-2021, 03:13 AM.

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            • Shurmur did simplify the playbook in my opinion. He took away most of the intermediate and long ball stuff. That's why you saw Lock dinking and dunking to his first and second read also to rbs and so forth. I thought that Shurmur was calling the games to protect Lock from himself.

              I'm not an x and o guy but just watching you saw a drastic change so I do believe in the later part Shurmur had to tailor the playbook to Lock in some way.
              Last edited by Broncoyearound; 02-15-2021, 09:26 AM.
              :go:

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              • Shurmur may have simplified the playbook due to the offensive line not allowing those extended plays to develop coupled with inexperienced wide receivers.

                Lock gets the brunt of the blame because he plays QB, but the reality is context matters, and there's plenty of blame to share.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mozzerpete View Post
                  Shurmur may have simplified the playbook due to the offensive line not allowing those extended plays to develop coupled with inexperienced wide receivers.

                  Lock gets the brunt of the blame because he plays QB, but the reality is context matters, and there's plenty of blame to share.
                  Plenty of blame, but Paton is only looking to replace Lock, not Jeudy or Fant. If Lock remains the starter, its because no deals could get done for what Paton believes is an actual upgrade to position.
                  Superbowl 50 Champions!

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                  • Gotta love that when the playbook was dumbed down, Lock improved and the team played better. This hit piece is more of detriment to Shurmur than Lock. You're supposed to put your young QB in a position to succeed so he can grow.​​​​​​
                    sigpic

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                    • Originally posted by JW7 View Post
                      Gotta love that when the playbook was dumbed down, Lock improved and the team played better. This hit piece is more of detriment to Shurmur than Lock. You're supposed to put your young QB in a position to succeed so he can grow.​​​​​​
                      No doubt. What took the coaches so long to figure out they have a bunch of new players along with a rookie QB that making the game simpler for them would benefit? That story isn't a knock on lock. There have been plenty of QBs where smart coaches simplified the playbook to help them. The Broncos simply don't have those coaches.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

                        My whole aim was targeted at Locks mental capabilities, hence the "dumb down" article post. I'm not sold he can handle the knowledge and distribute it on the fly like he should be able to.
                        I see games where Lock makes great decisions and the offense does well.

                        I see other games where Lock is pressing the ball too much down the field and ends up making bad decisions. Is this Lock or the coaching?

                        Have seen enough of experts breaking down game film and coaches talking about plays to know while the issues always appear to be the QB to fans there may be things going on where the problem is elsewhere. Really the true problem is only known inside the team sometimes.

                        With that said there is a legit problem that Lock is too young to be able to take things over like a Vet QB and maybe he has not have good teaching day to day...week to week.

                        My concern about this is not only is it hard to think Lock will develop into the QB we need but it is also hard for me to think the next young QB will develop. TBH there is really not much to show me the Broncos have done much to help a young QB develop in 15 years. Oz may be an exception to this but was that the Broncos or PM?
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JW7 View Post
                          Gotta love that when the playbook was dumbed down, Lock improved and the team played better. This hit piece is more of detriment to Shurmur than Lock. You're supposed to put your young QB in a position to succeed so he can grow.​​​​​​
                          People say dumbed down but imo most Qbs succeed when they are making easy passes most of the time and when the defense starts to defend the easy passes which allows the deep ball opportunities become available.

                          The deep balls become more easier when there is elite talent on the offense to help the QB but ultimately either the run game or easy passes need to force a defense into giving up looks that allow opportunities for deep balls.

                          Lock looked good in 2019 and 2020 when he was hitting the short passes to get first downs and than taking advantage of certain looks when the defense gave the opportunities. I do not think Shurmur is very good at running this kind of offense in which Lock can succeed imo. Maybe the coaches evolve in the off season. Maybe we get a new qb and Shurmur will see this as another opportunity to force his offense onto different Qb.
                          Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                            No doubt. What took the coaches so long to figure out they have a bunch of new players along with a rookie QB that making the game simpler for them would benefit? That story isn't a knock on lock. There have been plenty of QBs where smart coaches simplified the playbook to help them. The Broncos simply don't have those coaches.
                            You took the words right off the tips of my fingers. If the teachers in school are weak with ensuring comprehension by the student, won't coaches have the same problem with players not grasping (comprehending) what's being taught. Weak teachers / coaches have a bigger burden than the student / players do IMO. The jury is still out for me on our coaching staff simply because they lack the ability to "prove" they know what they're doing (I know, it's only been a year with all the team changes including injuries) and therefore the chance of players responding with a higher level of success is minimized. And then there's play call. I've been following the Broncos closely for over 40 years and I have seen much better play call in that time period (worse? maybe). And as every sports fan knows, all teams experience high peaks and deep valleys. We are in one of those somewhat deep valleys now and I truly believe weak coaching along with suspect play call has pushed the Broncos into the valley more than the 43 (?) man roster has. Good and more so great decisions need to happen especially with our QB situation in order to begin climbing out of the valley of mediocrity.

                            What ever the organization decides to do in 2021 regarding players / coaches will obviously determine what will happen in 2022. More of the same chaos or improvement with true value and success.
                            Utah Bronco Freak

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                            • Originally posted by JW7 View Post
                              Gotta love that when the playbook was dumbed down, Lock improved and the team played better. This hit piece is more of detriment to Shurmur than Lock. You're supposed to put your young QB in a position to succeed so he can grow.​​​​​​
                              I agree put your young QB in a a position to succeed. I think Shurmur needs to go IMO
                              sigpic2020 HOFER!!!!
                              Adopted Bronco: Justin Simmons 2017,2018 ,2019
                              PATS FANS COME TO THIS BOARD BECAUSE THEY RESPECT AND APPRECIATE US

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                              • Originally posted by jazzbodog View Post

                                You took the words right off the tips of my fingers. If the teachers in school are weak with ensuring comprehension by the student, won't coaches have the same problem with players not grasping (comprehending) what's being taught. Weak teachers / coaches have a bigger burden than the student / players do IMO. The jury is still out for me on our coaching staff simply because they lack the ability to "prove" they know what they're doing (I know, it's only been a year with all the team changes including injuries) and therefore the chance of players responding with a higher level of success is minimized. And then there's play call. I've been following the Broncos closely for over 40 years and I have seen much better play call in that time period (worse? maybe). And as every sports fan knows, all teams experience high peaks and deep valleys. We are in one of those somewhat deep valleys now and I truly believe weak coaching along with suspect play call has pushed the Broncos into the valley more than the 43 (?) man roster has. Good and more so great decisions need to happen especially with our QB situation in order to begin climbing out of the valley of mediocrity.

                                What ever the organization decides to do in 2021 regarding players / coaches will obviously determine what will happen in 2022. More of the same chaos or improvement with true value and success.
                                Yup. I'm not impressed by their results....

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