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  • Originally posted by WYBRONCO View Post

    Wow that makes you want to run out an draft a 1st round QB, sheesh
    Gives you an idea why some teams don't care about trading away their first round picks.
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    • Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

      I agree, it's definitely an easy out when it comes to stats. I get into debates often bc I call players great that don't have the numbers people tend to put stock in. Like calling Larry Fitzgerald one of the 5 best wide outs ever. But he doesn't have the glam Moss, Rice, Owens, etc have. His best QB was an aged Kurt Warner. I've also said things like Pavel Datsyuk is one of the most skilled hockey players, but he doesn't have Crosby numbers, so people go with that. You gotta have Crosby, or Ovie numbers to be called one of anything.

      The eye test has kinda died because we've become obsessed with numbers. Baseball and analytics are a couple. People are getting jobs in the MLB not for anything other than predicting, projecting numbers.
      I hear you, I'm not a Red Wings fan but I will go to my grave saying in his prime Sergei Fedorov might have been the most underrated player in NHL history. What other forward, who won a Hart Trophy as a forward, could then be switched to defense full-time during the playoffs (not the same year as the Hart Trophy) and play top pairing minutes at a high level? Scottie Bowman has said that if Fedorov has switched to D full-time he'd have won the Norris Trophy.

      But I don't have fancy stats to back that up.

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      • Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

        Gives you an idea why some teams don't care about trading away their first round picks.
        Yes, especially if you know you are set at QB after giving some away.

        I like the eye test philosophy in all sports, and yes, analytics, and stats don't always paint the real picture. My eyes tell me Lock isn't good enough. Maybe after next year my eyes will improve, but I am not changing my prescription until then.

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        • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

          I hear you, I'm not a Red Wings fan but I will go to my grave saying in his prime Sergei Fedorov might have been the most underrated player in NHL history. What other forward, who won a Hart Trophy as a forward, could then be switched to defense full-time during the playoffs (not the same year as the Hart Trophy) and play top pairing minutes at a high level? Scottie Bowman has said that if Fedorov has switched to D full-time he'd have won the Norris Trophy.

          But I don't have fancy stats to back that up.
          As a Blues fan I would never underrate Fedorov, man was he great especially at the expense of the Blues. It is seems pretty clear most of the QB's on the previous list were not sure fire generational talents. Most were over drafted because of the "potential" or the need of the QB position. Luck when healthy, awesome. Newton and Wentz great for a season. Mahomes is the most successful QB from the Big12 probably ever. I didn't think he would be this good out of college, and I didn't think Allen would be either.

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          • Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

            Gives you an idea why some teams don't care about trading away their first round picks.
            Yeah, if what you're trading for is a "known" entity as an NFL QB and looks decent. That's a better bet than the uncertainty of drafting college QBs, even when the odds are a bit better early in that round than in later rounds. The NFL really needs a "minor league" that plays the game like the NFL does. College doesn't do it for much of the game.

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            • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

              You make a good case. To be sure, I was feeling really good about Lock in his rookie year, going 4 and 1, and looking the part...even with a number of folks picking his technique apart, and for other things. This year I was expecting some progression. His QB Rate dropped by over 15 points to 75.4, and he had almost the same number of pics as TD passes (16 TDs/15 Pics). And it was a nit but some of his actions on the field were less to my liking..kind of immature, even unfocused it seems....but that's just me. It just didn't line up with who I thought he was. That does not mean he is near done, and has little or no bearing on his future success. He can grow.

              But I feel that we need to know soon if he is on the right track, rather than regression, because it comes back to the same old story here...we have not had a good O since the height of The Manning years, and without a great D, we not win the crown. And I just don't see us having a great D within a couple of seasons without some upgrades.

              So for us to move forward, it's time to seriously "lock" in a good QB. I strongly believe that teams searching for QBs year after year are losing so much strategic opportunity as well as draft capital and potential loss of star non QBs. Take a look at all the great players drafted after our QB selections over the last decade and imagine how much better we'd be if we could have had them...and not "potential" starting QBs. I know, it's not a perfect science, but we did go thru a lot of QBs, young and vet. And here we are, some distance from our last playoff year.

              Anyway, I do like your stats/info. It is definitely a young team in so many ways. And take heart folks, if you can keep the nucleus of that young base together, imagine how powerful they might be in the not too distant future, with all that time to grow together and develop harmony.
              for sure going into 2020 like you i was stoked about lock...but then the season happened and like you i was at times just simply fed up with him...but after the season i thought about it

              the guy has everything you want in a qb, attitude, arm, physical ability...but i think a huge amount of his problems to me was the play calling,, certainly he turned the ball over on his own, but i recall a story about him that basically stated , he was the offense at college, he had to force it to get things going...and when the offense struggled he reverts back to that...i got to make something happen mode...the play calling was putrid all season until the last few games

              there was games we lost that we should have won, titans if i recall Micheal O had a pick in his hands in the endzone that would have sealed the game...he dropped it,titans scored and we lost, there was a game hamilton dropped crucial passes that would have allowed us to win, there was a game lock had two Tds dropped, there was the juedy drop game...it wasnt just on lock

              i read somewhere that every year in college lock had a new offense, then a new offense each year in the nfl...give the guy some consistency to learn a scheme inside and out, grow with his weapons as a cohesive offense and i think we will see a much better lock

              im not liking schumer at all, but again some consistency learning the offense for lock, as weak as schumers play calling was at times will probably do more good then having to learn another offense
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              • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                Fancy quotes aside though, I get what you're saying. People use inconclusive statistics to support their argument. At the same time though, it's important to be objective with our responses.
                True and a lot of members here are able to decipher what's accurate, what isn't and what is BS. Thanks Spice.
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                • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                  I love stats, but at the same time I hate them, because of how they've essentially become the be all and end all of so many debates. For instance in hockey there are all sorts of new age metrics, and the people who believe in them really believe in them. To the point where they'll take some nameless 4th line player and insist that it's a crime that player isn't getting more time because their expected goals per 60 minutes is so high.

                  What they leave out is that that player can't be played anymore than that because their level of play drops off drastically. And the player just scored two goals in the last 5 games while not having more playing time so their expected goals per 60 minutes has become way out of whack.

                  Just one example, but people have started trusting numbers over what they actually see and what's actually happened and why it actually happened.
                  Yep! Well stated sir! Sometimes it's difficult to sift through the tons of sports information and determine accuracy and ditch the "fake, alternate facts."

                  It's great that there are so NFL enthusiasts in this forum that are willing to do the necessary homework to help lazy fans like me. And they are fast in doing so.

                  Thanks everyone!

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                  • Originally posted by arapaho View Post

                    for sure going into 2020 like you i was stoked about lock...but then the season happened and like you i was at times just simply fed up with him...but after the season i thought about it

                    the guy has everything you want in a qb, attitude, arm, physical ability...but i think a huge amount of his problems to me was the play calling,, certainly he turned the ball over on his own, but i recall a story about him that basically stated , he was the offense at college, he had to force it to get things going...and when the offense struggled he reverts back to that...i got to make something happen mode...the play calling was putrid all season until the last few games

                    there was games we lost that we should have won, titans if i recall Micheal O had a pick in his hands in the endzone that would have sealed the game...he dropped it,titans scored and we lost, there was a game hamilton dropped crucial passes that would have allowed us to win, there was a game lock had two Tds dropped, there was the juedy drop game...it wasnt just on lock

                    i read somewhere that every year in college lock had a new offense, then a new offense each year in the nfl...give the guy some consistency to learn a scheme inside and out, grow with his weapons as a cohesive offense and i think we will see a much better lock

                    im not liking schumer at all, but again some consistency learning the offense for lock, as weak as schumers play calling was at times will probably do more good then having to learn another offense
                    I certainly hope Lock gets it together and has a good career, even if not in Denver. And sure, if he stays and gets a full shot, he may surprise the least approving fan. You make some good points.

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                    • Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                      Yeah, if what you're trading for is a "known" entity as an NFL QB and looks decent. That's a better bet than the uncertainty of drafting college QBs, even when the odds are a bit better early in that round than in later rounds. The NFL really needs a "minor league" that plays the game like the NFL does. College doesn't do it for much of the game.
                      Would have been good if the NFL had signed a deal with the AFL or XFL to have one of those be a minor league brand. Similar to how the NHL has the AHL, NBA with G League, and MLB has numerous levels of minor league promotions(Double A, Triple A). This would be good for practice squad players, free agents who are willing to play right then and there, college players, etc.

                      I remember attending an NFL seminar where current and former players took the stage to chat with us middle school and super camp footballers, Troy Brown took the stage and mentioned the average NFL player career last 3-4 seasons. How many of those careers could have been saved by a minor league system? So people take a bit to develop. This would also help with projects.

                      Imagine if Denver could've sent Tebow, Paxton or Brock or Drew down to the minors/affiliate team the same way an NHL team can send down or call up players from the AHL.... We could be looking at different career paths. Bc those players and any player could be with the affiliate team working on their mechanics, learning game speed, etc against players who are also as inexperienced and learning those same things.
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                      • Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

                        Would have been good if the NFL had signed a deal with the AFL or XFL to have one of those be a minor league brand. Similar to how the NHL has the AHL, NBA with G League, and MLB has numerous levels of minor league promotions(Double A, Triple A). This would be good for practice squad players, free agents who are willing to play right then and there, college players, etc.

                        I remember attending an NFL seminar where current and former players took the stage to chat with us middle school and super camp footballers, Troy Brown took the stage and mentioned the average NFL player career last 3-4 seasons. How many of those careers could have been saved by a minor league system? So people take a bit to develop. This would also help with projects.

                        Imagine if Denver could've sent Tebow, Paxton or Brock or Drew down to the minors/affiliate team the same way an NHL team can send down or call up players from the AHL.... We could be looking at different career paths. Bc those players and any player could be with the affiliate team working on their mechanics, learning game speed, etc against players who are also as inexperienced and learning those same things.
                        Honestly i would love to see the nfl get a Dev League. i feel like it would benefits some positions. expecially if you could get a spring league and run similar systems to the nfl team. i think it would open a chance for players that normally wouldn't get it. such as NFL Europe with Jake Delhomme. he would never have be a starting qb with out nfl Europe. it would be good to see the nfl try something like this. plus it would let the nfl. get a market and some stuff for smaller markets.
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                        • Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post

                          Honestly i would love to see the nfl get a Dev League. i feel like it would benefits some positions. expecially if you could get a spring league and run similar systems to the nfl team. i think it would open a chance for players that normally wouldn't get it. such as NFL Europe with Jake Delhomme. he would never have be a starting qb with out nfl Europe. it would be good to see the nfl try something like this. plus it would let the nfl. get a market and some stuff for smaller markets.
                          NFL if I'm not mistaken is the only major sport that doesn't have it in some form. Even the Euro soccer clubs have academies and B teams they can move players up and down for, but teams can sign players off those B teams. Unlike an AHL team. Ducks can't just go sign a player off the Knights. Players and teams do have a protection.
                          It would be good for the sport, good for business, bc the league would at that point be making money year around off on field products.
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                          • Originally posted by arapaho View Post

                            for sure going into 2020 like you i was stoked about lock...but then the season happened and like you i was at times just simply fed up with him...but after the season i thought about it

                            the guy has everything you want in a qb, attitude, arm, physical ability...but i think a huge amount of his problems to me was the play calling,, certainly he turned the ball over on his own, but i recall a story about him that basically stated , he was the offense at college, he had to force it to get things going...and when the offense struggled he reverts back to that...i got to make something happen mode...the play calling was putrid all season until the last few games

                            there was games we lost that we should have won, titans if i recall Micheal O had a pick in his hands in the endzone that would have sealed the game...he dropped it,titans scored and we lost, there was a game hamilton dropped crucial passes that would have allowed us to win, there was a game lock had two Tds dropped, there was the juedy drop game...it wasnt just on lock

                            i read somewhere that every year in college lock had a new offense, then a new offense each year in the nfl...give the guy some consistency to learn a scheme inside and out, grow with his weapons as a cohesive offense and i think we will see a much better lock

                            im not liking schumer at all, but again some consistency learning the offense for lock, as weak as schumers play calling was at times will probably do more good then having to learn another offense
                            Oh and after the first Raiders game I was done with Lock. That was it for me. And then I cooled down a little bit and he showed progress towards the end of the year, but not enough progress to be locked in as the Broncos starter, nor to at least have competition. If they can get Watson, they have to pull the trigger, it's an upgrade. But I'd be disappointed if they "upgraded" to someone like Garoppolo. He may be better than Lock, but not by that much. If they can't get a top QB I'd rather they stick with Lock and see if he can get better, if he does and he becomes the guy, awesome. If he doesn't then they'll be in position to get Howell, Rattler or Slovis next year.

                            To me, if you can't get a top 10 QB like Watson (he could be top 5, but for the sake of argument any top 10 QB), I'd rather be 2-14 with Lock than 8-8 with Garoppolo.

                            As for the play calling, I think it was a bit of a chicken and egg thing. I'm not sure if the play calling was how it was because Lock was playing poorly? Or if Lock was playing poorly because of the play calling? In the first Raiders game it was 100% Lock being poor, but in other games it seemed like it could have been the play calling. If they do go forward with Lock I hope that the second year in the same system, for all of the offensive players, will lead to more consistency and better execution at the little things which will hopefully lead to more aggressive play calling.

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                            • Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post

                              Honestly i would love to see the nfl get a Dev League. i feel like it would benefits some positions. expecially if you could get a spring league and run similar systems to the nfl team. i think it would open a chance for players that normally wouldn't get it. such as NFL Europe with Jake Delhomme. he would never have be a starting qb with out nfl Europe. it would be good to see the nfl try something like this. plus it would let the nfl. get a market and some stuff for smaller markets.
                              I'm a little surprised the NFL doesn't come up with a "junior" league based on the Canadian Hockey League model. For hockey players that want to go to college there's the NCAA and for those that want to focus more on hockey there's the CHL. It's players aged 16-20 and it gives them a glimpse into what professional hockey looks like. I think A junior football league would be great success in the US. Players have to wait for 3 years from high school graduation until they can enter the NFL draft, for those that want to just play football, and not pretend to do school, it would be an option.

                              And if the NFL were to own it or at least sponsor it, they could then put in coaches and systems that would teach the players the skills that are needed to succeed in the NFL, rather than just running what college coaches need so they can have W/L success at college not developing the players. You could get QBs developing proper NFL skills and footwork, lineman working proper techniques and learning those little things. Then you can also tech those players things like money management, proper nutrition, proper working out schedules and techniques. And other life skills like how to do a resume, or interview for a job etc. Have it be a 4 year league (like the NCAA) although that's the max, players don't have to play 4 years. AND the big one, have it so that players can return there for 1 year after being drafted, or signing as UDFAs.

                              Also for every year a player plays in the CHL there's a certain amount of tuition money saved for them to use when their career is over if they don't go on to play professionally. I think the CHL keeps that grant money for them for up to 5 years after they play their last CHL game.

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                              • Given the physicality of football, I don't think football would be able to have a developmental league. The span of a football player's career is usually much less than other sports.

                                ​​​​​​It would be nice to have something like that, I just don't think it's possible.

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