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  • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

    According to Tim Jenkins 80% of the NFL offences are the exact same schemes. The terminology, formations/motions and what the emphasize will be different, but outside of Baltimore and Arizona the offences all feature the same play schemes. And funny enough, the most popular "scheme" in the NFL today is one that Broncos fans were arguing was obsolete 5 years ago. Now everyone wants Shanahan's outside zone scheme.

    At some point fans need to realize that schemes aren't the problem. You can have the greatest schemes ever and they look poor if the players don't execute them. Meanwhile you can have the most vanilla schemes ever but they look all-world if the players execute at a high level. Which leads me to pointing out, the Peyton Manning offense was an extremely vanilla offense with minimal formations (about 5 base formations) and really not that many individual plays. What made it great was attention to detail, and being extremely polished in that vanilla scheme.

    My biggest complaint about Shurmur, and what I think he could do to greatly improve the offense in 2021 has nothing to do with schemes, it would simply be to dial back what they do and get maximum reps at those fewer things. Build a base that they become experts at and then start building around that.
    Totally Agree however I hated the Hire of Pat and Still Do. If our Offense comes out Flat and Dead again from Start to Finish and If I see that Pat is not using the RB's and setting his QB to be Successful then I once again will be starting a Thread calling for him to be fired after Week 2 Pat was calling bad games for almost the entire year last year I think maybe there was 2 games that he installed a Game Plan that actually worked however that was all and since Pat has been Fired from all of his previous positions and there has been a lot something tells me if Pat does not perform Week 1 he should get his walking papers and all of this could of been avoided if Denver did not hire him what is sad is yet again the Fans were Spot On about this being a Bad Hire however what do we know we are just fans right? All I got to say is Pat better put his players in better circumstances to succeed Starting in Week 1 or Else The Fire Will Be Raging !! I still think it was Totally a Real Bad Hire !! I hope that Pat makes me eat crow in 2021 I guess we all shall see.

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    • Originally posted by DENVERSB50CHAMP View Post

      Totally Agree however I hated the Hire of Pat and Still Do. If our Offense comes out Flat and Dead again from Start to Finish and If I see that Pat is not using the RB's and setting his QB to be Successful then I once again will be starting a Thread calling for him to be fired after Week 2 Pat was calling bad games for almost the entire year last year I think maybe there was 2 games that he installed a Game Plan that actually worked however that was all and since Pat has been Fired from all of his previous positions and there has been a lot something tells me if Pat does not perform Week 1 he should get his walking papers and all of this could of been avoided if Denver did not hire him what is sad is yet again the Fans were Spot On about this being a Bad Hire however what do we know we are just fans right? All I got to say is Pat better put his players in better circumstances to succeed Starting in Week 1 or Else The Fire Will Be Raging !! I still think it was Totally a Real Bad Hire !! I hope that Pat makes me eat crow in 2021 I guess we all shall see.
      I'm not going to argue that Shurmur is a good OC. I'm just tired of people blaming schemes and making that out to be the problem. It's not the schemes, it's the other things. My problem with the offense this year was that they tried to do too much too early, and it looked like they weren't good at anything. I firmly believe you need to build a base before expanding it, and only after you're good at that base. As a generic example, you need to be good at Inside Zone in order for you to be able to build in play action off of IZ. Then you can build in the fake IZ end around play. Then you can start running the fly action paired with the inside zone. But if you don't get good at the original play then you're probably not going to be good at any of the other plays, and you've given the defense no reason to sell out to the original play which opens up the chances for those branch plays.

      As for whether Shurmur was a bad hire, Scangarello was a disaster. He was in so far over his head that it wasn't even funny. They needed to replace him, I don't think it was a bad play to go with someone who has a lot of experience. But the offense was bad in his first year (as it's been since halfway through 2014), they need to take some big steps this year. If they don't it'll be a new HC hiring a new OC.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

        I'm not going to argue that Shurmur is a good OC. I'm just tired of people blaming schemes and making that out to be the problem. It's not the schemes, it's the other things. My problem with the offense this year was that they tried to do too much too early, and it looked like they weren't good at anything. I firmly believe you need to build a base before expanding it, and only after you're good at that base. As a generic example, you need to be good at Inside Zone in order for you to be able to build in play action off of IZ. Then you can build in the fake IZ end around play. Then you can start running the fly action paired with the inside zone. But if you don't get good at the original play then you're probably not going to be good at any of the other plays, and you've given the defense no reason to sell out to the original play which opens up the chances for those branch plays.

        As for whether Shurmur was a bad hire, Scangarello was a disaster. He was in so far over his head that it wasn't even funny. They needed to replace him, I don't think it was a bad play to go with someone who has a lot of experience. But the offense was bad in his first year (as it's been since halfway through 2014), they need to take some big steps this year. If they don't it'll be a new HC hiring a new OC.
        Totally Agree !! You Rock !!

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        • Originally posted by rst08tierney View Post

          Shurmurs a proven loser with schemes that don't work. If you're expecting anything short of pure disaster for lock this year you'll be fully let down.
          If what you say is true, then I do not understand Shurmur's NFL career and lure.

          Who is most responsible for your "pure disaster" outlook, Shurmur or Lock?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by listopencil View Post

            Right. You said that Lock needs to be like John Elway (HoF QB) and Tom Brady (HoF QB) and then added PFM (HoF QB). It's not a strawman. You're just confused.
            I literally wrote "The thing is that Lock needs the attitude of a champion, and he needs to have the team play like............."
            Elway is not in the HOF because of a game of pool with Bobby Brewster but huge parts of why he was so much better than the Matthew Staffords and Jay Cutlers of this world are his attitude, heart, energy, impact on players around him and win at all cost...

            If you watch Tom Brady throw an interception then you often see how mad he gets at him self, and he will correct it.

            The QB is hands down the most important player on the team and there is about an 88% correlation to QB play in W/L, but it is still all about how the team plays. Week 17/2015 when Manning came in instead of Brock, the skill set of the other players did not change, but attitude changed and the rest is history. Manning generally did not get the team to play hard in the same manner that other elite QBs do but he was more a prefection/death by a 1000 paper cuts guy.

            The thing with a QB as driven as Elway (or Tebow here for a short while) you see an impact on the whole team that just plays that little bit better, harder and longer. Lock needs to stop putting the team in a bad position. He constantly fails to account for the fact that his accuracy is spotty, as was the case for Tebow. The difference is that Lock does not protect the ball for the majority of the game when that is prudent. Lock can make great plays in crunch time - he just needs to not throw the game away before we get there.

            Lock is more physically gifted than both Manning and Brady was at that age, but he is to become an elite QB then it happens between the ears and with brute force.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

              According to Tim Jenkins 80% of the NFL offences are the exact same schemes. The terminology, formations/motions and what the emphasize will be different, but outside of Baltimore and Arizona the offences all feature the same play schemes. And funny enough, the most popular "scheme" in the NFL today is one that Broncos fans were arguing was obsolete 5 years ago. Now everyone wants Shanahan's outside zone scheme.

              At some point fans need to realize that schemes aren't the problem. You can have the greatest schemes ever and they look poor if the players don't execute them. Meanwhile you can have the most vanilla schemes ever but they look all-world if the players execute at a high level. Which leads me to pointing out, the Peyton Manning offense was an extremely vanilla offense with minimal formations (about 5 base formations) and really not that many individual plays. What made it great was attention to detail, and being extremely polished in that vanilla scheme.

              My biggest complaint about Shurmur, and what I think he could do to greatly improve the offense in 2021 has nothing to do with schemes, it would simply be to dial back what they do and get maximum reps at those fewer things. Build a base that they become experts at and then start building around that.
              I am sorry I have seen different run offenses from the Warren Moon Run and Shoot with the Houston Oilers to the Tebow throw 7-10 times a game to the recent Wilson/Seahawks Run because they could not pass block some years ago to the Stl Rams Greatest Show on Turf which at its best was a timing work of art in the passing game.

              To say every single offense is the exact same is just not true. It is why we traded our dedicated FB we just signed to a long term contract right after we got Shurmur....because a dedicated FB was needed in Scag's offense but it was better to use the roster spot on something else in Shurmur's offense.

              There are many plays in the NFL....yea different OCs use different names on the same plays. The fact is not every team can run every single play in the NFL on a level that is required to work in the NFL. Yea reps can help but sometimes a team just does not have the skillsets required to the run the play against a NFL defense. Sometimes a team can run the play against one NFL team but is not good enough to run that same play against another NFL team. Good OCs know how to utilize the plays in the NFL with the skill sets they have on their team. Shurmur is not in that category.

              To me the best hope we have in 2021 is that the talent on offense comes together and makes Shurmur look good....and he goes to another HC job in 2022.
              Last edited by Hadez; 03-14-2021, 09:20 PM.
              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

              Comment


              • I have been pounding the table for Deshaun Watson, but know Im pounding the table for Wilson. Not the Wilson in Seattle. This kid out of BYU is the #1 QB in the last 3 years to come out. Behind Mahomes.
                sigpic WHEC-724

                Comment


                • Originally posted by nickmeyer View Post
                  I have been pounding the table for Deshaun Watson, but know Im pounding the table for Wilson. Not the Wilson in Seattle. This kid out of BYU is the #1 QB in the last 3 years to come out. Behind Mahomes.
                  I was thinking about this kid also

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by nickmeyer View Post
                    I have been pounding the table for Deshaun Watson, but know Im pounding the table for Wilson. Not the Wilson in Seattle. This kid out of BYU is the #1 QB in the last 3 years to come out. Behind Mahomes.
                    Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post

                    I was thinking about this kid also

                    It's almost like he's become the #1 QB in the draft, given folks stopped talking about Lawrence months ago. He seems to be on a "Mayfield" rise, and I think he definitely goes no later than the 2nd QB taken.

                    The question for us would be, how much draft capital do we want to use to get him, given he will be gone by the #9 pick. In a straight line trade, we would have to give up our entire '21 draft in equivalency to move up even to 3....never mind 2. Sure, it would likely be a 21/22 trade scenario, maybe even as far as '23. But just using '21 as the trade component, we would have 2 young potential starters, and nothing else to show for it.

                    BUT....if Wilson is that good, you have to think about it. Ideally you trade players as well as draft choices in this scenario. If Lock, then you have to secure a vet for one year.
                    Last edited by CanDB; 03-15-2021, 09:15 AM.

                    Comment


                    • The draft can get funny sometimes, if he goes high, then somebody else might drop to us??

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                      • Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
                        The draft can get funny sometimes, if he goes high, then somebody else might drop to us??

                        Free agency will change things for sure. If the draft was today then QB desperate teams may make moves to get in the top 10 and draft Qbs. IMO if the draft was today 4 teams draft QBs ahead of pick 9. When teams sign a QB they think may be good enough in free agency then they will be less likely to give up crazy trades to get into the top 10 and pick a QB. For every team that pulls of a Mahomes type trade there are a lot of teams that make that move and then next thing ya know the QB is not even on the team anymore.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by nickmeyer View Post
                          I have been pounding the table for Deshaun Watson, but know Im pounding the table for Wilson. Not the Wilson in Seattle. This kid out of BYU is the #1 QB in the last 3 years to come out. Behind Mahomes.
                          Continuing to pound your table is a waste of time. Watson will never be a Bronco.

                          BYU Wilson will be long gone before our pick unless unusual things happen...and none of us fans will ever know until it happens.
                          Utah Bronco Freak

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
                            The draft can get funny sometimes, if he goes high, then somebody else might drop to us??

                            Yesssss,,,,this is the beauty of the draft (among other things). Though you can not have all you want, if you have a sound strategy, sometimes even better things come your way. Especially when you have a top 10 pick.

                            In past, it got so fun when you have a list of players you would want with your #1 selection, and as the evening begins, some names jump into the picks that you did not expect to go as early. One of those picks is good, but 2 or more is excellent!! Suddenly you realize, by shear numbers, that one or more studs/BPAs are now available. It is exciting, and you just hope the Exec see those players the same as you.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hadez View Post

                              I am sorry I have seen different run offenses from the Warren Moon Run and Shoot with the Houston Oilers to the Tebow throw 7-10 times a game to the recent Wilson/Seahawks Run because they could not pass block some years ago to the Stl Rams Greatest Show on Turf which at its best was a timing work of art in the passing game.

                              To say every single offense is the exact same is just not true. It is why we traded our dedicated FB we just signed to a long term contract right after we got Shurmur....because a dedicated FB was needed in Scag's offense but it was better to use the roster spot on something else in Shurmur's offense.

                              There are many plays in the NFL....yea different OCs use different names on the same plays. The fact is not every team can run every single play in the NFL on a level that is required to work in the NFL. Yea reps can help but sometimes a team just does not have the skillsets required to the run the play against a NFL defense. Sometimes a team can run the play against one NFL team but is not good enough to run that same play against another NFL team. Good OCs know how to utilize the plays in the NFL with the skill sets they have on their team. Shurmur is not in that category.

                              To me the best hope we have in 2021 is that the talent on offense comes together and makes Shurmur look good....and he goes to another HC job in 2022.
                              You're using an offense from 30 years ago, an offense from 20 years ago and an offense from 10 years ago to show offences today are different from each other? No one is claiming that 80% of all offences that have existed are the same, but that 80% of the offensive schemes used today are the same. And the examples you've given can fall in the outlier category, much like the current Ravens and Cardinals do.

                              The biggest differences in offences in the NFL right now it is what they emphasize. Using your example, the Scangarello offense preferred to have a lead blocker, whereas the Shurmur offense prefers to use double tight ends. Still the same number of blockers, it's just where they start that's different. But you can still run almost all of the exact same plays from both sets. The only plays you can only use from one that you can't use from the other is a FB dive, and a FB lead.

                              Shurmur has been in the NFL for a long time, and has had a lot of different OC jobs, so obviously those who hire people actually think he's pretty good at the job. If his schemes were as dated as claimed (they're not), and he was as bad as an Offensive Coordinator as some believe, do you think he would continue to get jobs? He's the John Fox of Offensive Coordinators (another coach people don't appreciate), he's not flashy, but he was brought in to bring back professionalism to the team (in this case the offense) after a train wreck that took place right before him.

                              Last point, yep Denver's offense was bad last year, but it's been pretty mediocre (at best) every year since midway through 2014. The belief that some magical OC is going to come in and turn it around completely in one year with no offseason, and no preseason, is just crazy. It was always going to be a multi-year process, but with some offseason program this year (no one seems sure how much) and the players not needing to learn a new offense again, along with the players here, there's building blocks in place to take a big step forward this year. If Shurmur fails then he'll probably be gone, but this is the year to judge him on, not last year.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                                You're using an offense from 30 years ago, an offense from 20 years ago and an offense from 10 years ago to show offences today are different from each other? No one is claiming that 80% of all offences that have existed are the same, but that 80% of the offensive schemes used today are the same. And the examples you've given can fall in the outlier category, much like the current Ravens and Cardinals do.

                                The biggest differences in offences in the NFL right now it is what they emphasize. Using your example, the Scangarello offense preferred to have a lead blocker, whereas the Shurmur offense prefers to use double tight ends. Still the same number of blockers, it's just where they start that's different. But you can still run almost all of the exact same plays from both sets. The only plays you can only use from one that you can't use from the other is a FB dive, and a FB lead.

                                Shurmur has been in the NFL for a long time, and has had a lot of different OC jobs, so obviously those who hire people actually think he's pretty good at the job. If his schemes were as dated as claimed (they're not), and he was as bad as an Offensive Coordinator as some believe, do you think he would continue to get jobs? He's the John Fox of Offensive Coordinators (another coach people don't appreciate), he's not flashy, but he was brought in to bring back professionalism to the team (in this case the offense) after a train wreck that took place right before him.

                                Last point, yep Denver's offense was bad last year, but it's been pretty mediocre (at best) every year since midway through 2014. The belief that some magical OC is going to come in and turn it around completely in one year with no offseason, and no preseason, is just crazy. It was always going to be a multi-year process, but with some offseason program this year (no one seems sure how much) and the players not needing to learn a new offense again, along with the players here, there's building blocks in place to take a big step forward this year. If Shurmur fails then he'll probably be gone, but this is the year to judge him on, not last year.
                                i agree to a point, yes all offenses are nearly the same...but how the offense is called is where schumer lacks greatly. getting a offense into a flow, getting a qb into a flow, calling plays at the right time, it just seemed to me his playcalling was lets say lackluster. 1st down run off g for 2, 2nd down off T for 1, 3rd down wr screen for 4, or sideline two yards short of the stick...how many times did you think wheres the quick slant, man a drag route would kill them, why are all three wrs in the same area, deep?

                                later in the season he started pulling the oline and we started running the ball, and lock had some good games...what changed? it wasnt the scheme, it was the play selection
                                sigpic
                                when do native Americans become human and not mascots

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