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  • #76
    Originally posted by Mel B. View Post

    I'm not an X's & O's person, I just go off the eye-test so I'm by no means can I or can I be as technical as many of you here are.

    I just don't see much creativity is all I'm saying...and I'm not going off of the Saints game cause I stopped watching that joke after the 1st series just to save my sanity. I'm speaking on what I've seen so far this year, excluding Sunday.
    How many true football innovations that came from the ranks of NFL coaches can you list during the past 100 years? Don't count ones that NFL coaches borrowed from college or high school coaches.
    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Mel B. View Post
      We need a modern-day/modern-thinking (2020) OC and not the yester-year/out-dated (early 2000s) thinking OC.

      Hindsight is 20/20 but damn I wish we had just kept Scangarello and hoped he would have picked K. Shanahan's brain ALOT more during the off-season.

      I get the whole 'consistency' thing from some here wanting to keep Shurmur but the only thing that will come from that is...

      'consistent' bad play...'consistent' bad play-calling...and 'consistent' bad QB development.
      Most of the "forward thinking" in today's football is just going back to what worked before (as an example a bunch of teams are now running variations of Mike Shanahan's offense), stealing from college mixed with stealing from the NFL in the late 80's/early 90's (most of the pass heavy offences are variations of the Air Raid college offence and the run and shoot offense) and stealing from high school (the fly sweep that so many teams run now is from high school).

      The single biggest innovation any offense of any design can make is having average or above QB play. Right now the Broncos offense has looked as bad as it has because the QB has struggled in his second season. It wouldn't matter if he were in Bill Walsh's offense, Mike Shanahan's offense or Andy Reid's offense, with them calling the plays, if he can't go through his reads quickly and calmly, and he can't get the throw out to the right person, and on time, the offense is going to look bad.

      Now that's not to say anything good or bad about Shurmur's offense, it's saying that right now you're complaining that the car isn't fast enough, when Denver doesn't have someone who can get out of the driveway without stalling it.

      As for Rich Scangarello, he was in way over his head. He wasn't going to get better by "picking Kyle Shanahan's brain" he needed to get a lesser job somewhere else where he could continue to learn and grow. It wasn't a minor issue with him, it was several major ones.
      -The players often weren't on the same page (this means the offense and game plans were installed poorly).
      -He changed plays that worked in other locations to designs that will never work in the NFL (changing the blocking on the TE sweep to not at least influence the DE, instead giving the DE an unblocked path upfield to wait for the ball carrier).
      -He continued to call the same plays that didn't work (he ran stretch right continuously to Denver's worst run blocking OL when Denver was 3rd in the league running over the LT).
      -Denver scored just 9 offensive touchdowns in the first quarter in 2019, this means the pregame script and game plans were poor
      -They scored just 5 offensive touchdowns in the third quarter, this means their halftime adjustments were either really bad, or they didn't make any, which is equally as big of a problem.

      I wish Scangarello well, but he wasn't ready to be an OC at the NFL level. He may someday grow into being a great OC (Don Martindale was the worst DC in Broncos history, and he's become fairly good in Baltimore after 8 years of being back at a lesser level), but he's nowhere near ready yet.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by samparnell View Post

        How many true football innovations that came from the ranks of NFL coaches can you list during the past 100 years? Don't count ones that NFL coaches borrowed from college or high school coaches.
        That's an easy answer, but not one most people get right. Everything "new" in the NFL is either something that's been brought back after years of it being inactive at the pro level, or it's been adopted from the NCAA or high school game.

        NFL coaches are so scared of trying new things and rocking the boat (and getting fired because of it) they innovate by imitating.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

          That's an easy answer, but not one most people get right. Everything "new" in the NFL is either something that's been brought back after years of it being inactive at the pro level, or it's been adopted from the NCAA or high school game.

          NFL coaches are so scared of trying new things and rocking the boat (and getting fired because of it) they innovate by imitating.
          "What has been is what will be,
          and what has been done is what will be done,
          and there is nothing new under the sun."
          Ecc 1:9 (ESV)

          We're basically playing the same football they did in the Old Testament.

          Just sayin'




          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by samparnell View Post

            How many true football innovations that came from the ranks of NFL coaches can you list during the past 100 years? Don't count ones that NFL coaches borrowed from college or high school coaches.
            TRUE!

            I guess I just wish Shurmur disguised it to where it looked new & innovative rather than looking so stale & antiquated.
            Last edited by Mel B.; 11-30-2020, 02:37 PM.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

              Most of the "forward thinking" in today's football is just going back to what worked before (as an example a bunch of teams are now running variations of Mike Shanahan's offense), stealing from college mixed with stealing from the NFL in the late 80's/early 90's (most of the pass heavy offences are variations of the Air Raid college offence and the run and shoot offense) and stealing from high school (the fly sweep that so many teams run now is from high school).

              The single biggest innovation any offense of any design can make is having average or above QB play. Right now the Broncos offense has looked as bad as it has because the QB has struggled in his second season. It wouldn't matter if he were in Bill Walsh's offense, Mike Shanahan's offense or Andy Reid's offense, with them calling the plays, if he can't go through his reads quickly and calmly, and he can't get the throw out to the right person, and on time, the offense is going to look bad.

              Now that's not to say anything good or bad about Shurmur's offense, it's saying that right now you're complaining that the car isn't fast enough, when Denver doesn't have someone who can get out of the driveway without stalling it.

              As for Rich Scangarello, he was in way over his head. He wasn't going to get better by "picking Kyle Shanahan's brain" he needed to get a lesser job somewhere else where he could continue to learn and grow. It wasn't a minor issue with him, it was several major ones.
              -The players often weren't on the same page (this means the offense and game plans were installed poorly).
              -He changed plays that worked in other locations to designs that will never work in the NFL (changing the blocking on the TE sweep to not at least influence the DE, instead giving the DE an unblocked path upfield to wait for the ball carrier).
              -He continued to call the same plays that didn't work (he ran stretch right continuously to Denver's worst run blocking OL when Denver was 3rd in the league running over the LT).
              -Denver scored just 9 offensive touchdowns in the first quarter in 2019, this means the pregame script and game plans were poor
              -They scored just 5 offensive touchdowns in the third quarter, this means their halftime adjustments were either really bad, or they didn't make any, which is equally as big of a problem.

              I wish Scangarello well, but he wasn't ready to be an OC at the NFL level. He may someday grow into being a great OC (Don Martindale was the worst DC in Broncos history, and he's become fairly good in Baltimore after 8 years of being back at a lesser level), but he's nowhere near ready yet.


              Thanks "Sensei "Butler By'Note...

              ...although I'm still not a fan of Shurmur, your breakdown has made me look at things from a different light and re-adjust my 'offensive woes' focus.

              Comment


              • #82
                And the bad news keeps coming, Callahan is expected to miss some time with an injury to the same foot he’s been having problems with

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                • #83
                  Denver should just forfeit the rest of the games this Year. It's Over so 2020 Over

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                    That's an easy answer, but not one most people get right. Everything "new" in the NFL is either something that's been brought back after years of it being inactive at the pro level, or it's been adopted from the NCAA or high school game.

                    NFL coaches are so scared of trying new things and rocking the boat (and getting fired because of it) they innovate by imitating.
                    There are a few that I know of during the past 100 years.

                    When the NFL began, all offenses were one or another style of Single/Double Wing using unbalanced or balanced lines. All that stuff came from college beginning with Glenn Warner with tweaks and adaptations added along the way by other coaches like Rockne, Sutherland, Neyland, et al. The defenses used against those included the Seven Diamond, Seven Box, 6-2-3, 5-3-3 and a bunch of others.

                    The first guy to come up with something new was Steve Owen, coach of the NY Giants. He flipped the backs of the Single Wing to the short side of the formation and used irregular line splits which was an idea he got from Alfred "Greasy" Neale, coach of the Eagles. Owen called it the A Formation and it featured the first usage of a cluster of eligible receivers which would be called bunch today. On the other side of the ball, he invented the 4-3 "umbrella" defense still used today and in which Tom Landry played under him. Landry later refined it into his "flex defense".

                    George Halas tried for years to install the T Formation offense in Chicago, but there weren't enough T Formation players coming out of college to do it right away. He relied heavily on Clark Shaughnessy, Frank Leahy, Dana Bible and Don Faurot. It came from college and took time, but the Single/Double Wing was gone by 1953 although it continued about ten years longer in colleges. By the way, the "shotgun" formation comes from the Single/Double Wing offense. In 2011 Mike McCoy had Tebow run a fair amount of Single Wing from unbalanced line.

                    At TCU in the 1930s Leo "Dutch" Meyer spread the Single Wing and installed a short passing attack known as the Southwestern Spread. Sammy Baugh said the rule was three Ss; short, safe and sure. Sounds a lot like the Bill Walsh WCO which was a true NFL innovation. In 1952 Meyer wrote a book called Spread Formation Football. He began by saying it wasn't new.

                    If anyone reading this can help me, have always looked for the origin of zone blocking. Can't find any mention of it before Lombardi. He probably used it when he was OC of the Giants and later at Green Bay and Washington. He may have invented it. If so, it might go back to his days as a high school coach. He called it "do-dad", area or zone blocking. Bill Yeoman borrowed it to invent his Veer offense at the University of Houston.

                    Paul Brown was one of the greatest innovators in the AAFC and the NFL. He tinkered with the T until it had a split end opposite the TE and split backs with a flanker. When the Browns joined the NFL in 1950, the only regular season games they lost that year were to Steve Owen's Giants playing his 4-3 D. Browns finally defeated the Giants in the playoffs ... barely by a score of 8-3. That was a truly great encounter between two of the greatest innovators in NFL history.

                    The vertical passing game really started to open up around 1960. Two of the best deep passers were Johnny Unitas of the NFL and Frank Tripucka of the AFL. The AFL aired the ball out in the Sixties. Pro football today resembles the AFL of the Sixties much more than the NFL of that period. The AFL was full of innovative coaches like Sid Gillman, Hank Stram and Al Davis.

                    There are other examples which can be mentioned if I revisit the topic. Gotta go for now.
                    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                      There are a few that I know of during the past 100 years.

                      When the NFL began, all offenses were one or another style of Single/Double Wing using unbalanced or balanced lines. All that stuff came from college beginning with Glenn Warner with tweaks and adaptations added along the way by other coaches like Rockne, Sutherland, Neyland, et al. The defenses used against those included the Seven Diamond, Seven Box, 6-2-3, 5-3-3 and a bunch of others.

                      The first guy to come up with something new was Steve Owen, coach of the NY Giants. He flipped the backs of the Single Wing to the short side of the formation and used irregular line splits which was an idea he got from Alfred "Greasy" Neale, coach of the Eagles. Owen called it the A Formation and it featured the first usage of a cluster of eligible receivers which would be called bunch today. On the other side of the ball, he invented the 4-3 "umbrella" defense still used today and in which Tom Landry played under him. Landry later refined it into his "flex defense".

                      George Halas tried for years to install the T Formation offense in Chicago, but there weren't enough T Formation players coming out of college to do it right away. He relied heavily on Clark Shaughnessy, Frank Leahy, Dana Bible and Don Faurot. It came from college and took time, but the Single/Double Wing was gone by 1953 although it continued about ten years longer in colleges. By the way, the "shotgun" formation comes from the Single/Double Wing offense. In 2011 Mike McCoy had Tebow run a fair amount of Single Wing from unbalanced line.

                      At TCU in the 1930s Leo "Dutch" Meyer spread the Single Wing and installed a short passing attack known as the Southwestern Spread. Sammy Baugh said the rule was three Ss; short, safe and sure. Sounds a lot like the Bill Walsh WCO which was a true NFL innovation. In 1952 Meyer wrote a book called Spread Formation Football. He began by saying it wasn't new.

                      If anyone reading this can help me, have always looked for the origin of zone blocking. Can't find any mention of it before Lombardi. He probably used it when he was OC of the Giants and later at Green Bay and Washington. He may have invented it. If so, it might go back to his days as a high school coach. He called it "do-dad", area or zone blocking. Bill Yeoman borrowed it to invent his Veer offense at the University of Houston.

                      Paul Brown was one of the greatest innovators in the AAFC and the NFL. He tinkered with the T until it had a split end opposite the TE and split backs with a flanker. When the Browns joined the NFL in 1950, the only regular season games they lost that year were to Steve Owen's Giants playing his 4-3 D. Browns finally defeated the Giants in the playoffs ... barely by a score of 8-3. That was a truly great encounter between two of the greatest innovators in NFL history.

                      The vertical passing game really started to open up around 1960. Two of the best deep passers were Johnny Unitas of the NFL and Frank Tripucka of the AFL. The AFL aired the ball out in the Sixties. Pro football today resembles the AFL of the Sixties much more than the NFL of that period. The AFL was full of innovative coaches like Sid Gillman, Hank Stram and Al Davis.

                      There are other examples which can be mentioned if I revisit the topic. Gotta go for now.
                      Oh what do you know?



                      Gotta wonder how a guy gets a nickname like "Greasy", part-time mechanic or just refused to wash his hair?

                      Superbowl 50 MVP Von Miller on February 7th, 2016

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Off the top of my head the most efficient Offenses we've had somewhat recently were Shanny/Kubes and PFM. And although Shanny came up with really good scripted openers and gameplans, the major similarity in those two periods was solid execution by all of the players and high end play from the QB position. We have neither this year for various reasons. Execution will take time. QB play is still a question mark.
                        Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by JW7 View Post
                          I agree that this was a lose lose situation but Shurmur is awful. Broncos need to move on asap. This was an opportunity to be creative and this fool runs a 5th grade Pop Warner offense. Absolutely embarrassing.
                          How can you get creative when you have no time to practice? This is not pop warner football.
                          Go Hard or Go Home

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                            Unless of course they are hoping to land the best QB in the draft!




                            .
                            True, but with our luck, I mean bad luck, the best QB in the draft would end up being the next Ryan Leaf.
                            Utah Bronco Freak

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by BR0NCOFANATIC View Post

                              How can you get creative when you have no time to practice? This is not pop warner football.
                              A Pop Warner offense would have been better. My younger daughter's team went to back to back championship games, lost the first and won the second, using primarily a diamond formation. We should have done that with Freeman at 'QB' and Gordon/Lindsay as the extra backs judging by how the Saints D actually defended Freeman's passing game.
                              Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by listopencil View Post

                                A Pop Warner offense would have been better. My younger daughter's team went to back to back championship games, lost the first and won the second, using primarily a diamond formation. We should have done that with Freeman at 'QB' and Gordon/Lindsay as the extra backs judging by how the Saints D actually defended Freeman's passing game.
                                That sounds like Gus Malzahn's offense at Auburn.
                                "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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