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Xavien Howard on Jerry Jeudy

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  • #16
    Why do many receivers get drafted who can't catch?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

      Money isn't a problem with the Broncos. They've kept their cap space in the black. In fact, that might be part of their problem. Look at what other teams are there alongside the Broncos in positive cap space:

      https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/

      Pretty much the worst in the league. Look at the other end of teams that operate in the red, and what do you see? Many of the top contenders. You get what you pay for, even in the NFL.

      That said, Patrick's the bird in the hand. He's proven himself a strong, capable player at the WR position. Jeudy and Hamler haven't. I'd pay for Patrick and let Jeudy and Hamler earn their way to contracts, which they don't have to worry about for a few years anyway.
      What he's saying is why would you want to pay Patrick 4-6 million a year long term to sit on the bench when Sutton comes back? We're going to need some of that money to re-sign Sutton. If you don't think Patrick can get that go look at what receivers get paid. Perriman got 6.5 million, and Cobb got 9 I think. He caught over 50 balls last year for 700+ yards, and 6 touchdowns. He's more valuable now than he's ever been, so trading him for a 4th or whatever makes sense. If not, let him play on the tender, but you're not getting anything if he leaves next offseason. Don't forget we also drafted Tyrie Cleveland last year, and we might have something there too. You're not going to line Patrick up consistently in the slot, and why would you line him up opposite Sutton after spending a 1st and 2nd round draft pick on Jeudy and Hamler? He's basically a poor man's Sutton, and he's not returning kicks. I like Patrick, but that also means that some other team probably likes him, and he doesn't have a role besides depth with Sutton healthy.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Kyousukeneko View Post

        why would he demand a trade to play LT and then just move back to the right. seems like a pipe dream at best.
        To get paid LT money and not RT money

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        • #19
          Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post

          To get paid LT money and not RT money
          if he is good then he can get good money. both Lane Johnson and Trent Brown are top 6 in average salary per year. the article i read he wants to play on the left side cause he feels more comfortable on that side. due to the fact he has played LT most his career. so i just don't see it happening.
          sigpic
          oakland raders gm
          latavis murray trade bait

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          • #20
            Originally posted by rst08tierney View Post
            Why do many receivers get drafted who can't catch?
            Speed, quickness, separation ability, release technique, etc... of course, there’s always a limit on how much that matters versus their drop rate or catching technique— but those other things are simply not as correctable as catching the ball is. Thus, a premium is put on those attributes.

            If you cannot separate in the NFL, you are doomed— no matter how sure-handed you are.

            N’Keal Harry, JJ Arcega-Whiteside, etc. come to mind.
            2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
            Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

              What he's saying is why would you want to pay Patrick 4-6 million a year long term to sit on the bench when Sutton comes back? We're going to need some of that money to re-sign Sutton. If you don't think Patrick can get that go look at what receivers get paid. Perriman got 6.5 million, and Cobb got 9 I think. He caught over 50 balls last year for 700+ yards, and 6 touchdowns. He's more valuable now than he's ever been, so trading him for a 4th or whatever makes sense. If not, let him play on the tender, but you're not getting anything if he leaves next offseason. Don't forget we also drafted Tyrie Cleveland last year, and we might have something there too. You're not going to line Patrick up consistently in the slot, and why would you line him up opposite Sutton after spending a 1st and 2nd round draft pick on Jeudy and Hamler? He's basically a poor man's Sutton, and he's not returning kicks. I like Patrick, but that also means that some other team probably likes him, and he doesn't have a role besides depth with Sutton healthy.
              We're making some assumptions here. And by 'we' I'm not being catty, I mean that we are all making some assumptions about our WR's.

              1) That Sutton will come back from his injury and still be a dominant/impact/true #1WR. That's not unreasonable but it's not necessarily true either.
              2) That Jeudy will get over his drops and become the weapon that we think he will be. Again not unreasonable but he had hands issues in college and there is no guarantee that he gets over it.
              3) That our OC can use Hamler as something other than a gadget player. I'm not sold on this coming true although he was better as a rookie than I gave him credit for and he showed me that I shouldn't underestimate him.
              4) That our depth WR's other than Patrick can develop into NFL players. I'd like to think this is true but I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever.

              I saw what we have in Patrick. I like it. I want it. He can play. We can use him. In regards to the bolded part of your post; as of right now I'd rather have Sutton and Patrick on the outside with Jeudy in the slot as a 'normal' 3WR set. I think that would stress a Defense more regularly than putting Hamler out there. Maybe Hamler proves me wrong again, I don't know, but that's how I see it right now. I see Hamler as a gadget player.
              Adopt-A-Bronco: Kendell Hinton

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              • #22
                Originally posted by HDbroncos02 View Post
                Speed, quickness, separation ability, release technique, etc... of course, there’s always a limit on how much that matters versus their drop rate or catching technique— but those other things are simply not as correctable as catching the ball is. Thus, a premium is put on those attributes.

                If you cannot separate in the NFL, you are doomed— no matter how sure-handed you are.

                N’Keal Harry, JJ Arcega-Whiteside, etc. come to mind.
                The first down or touchdown doesn't count if you don't have possession of the football. Some of the most effective WR's and TE's on the Broncos weren't the fastest guys on the field. Last draft was like watching Al Davis in action again. Pathetic.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                  What he's saying is why would you want to pay Patrick 4-6 million a year long term to sit on the bench when Sutton comes back? We're going to need some of that money to re-sign Sutton. If you don't think Patrick can get that go look at what receivers get paid. Perriman got 6.5 million, and Cobb got 9 I think. He caught over 50 balls last year for 700+ yards, and 6 touchdowns. He's more valuable now than he's ever been, so trading him for a 4th or whatever makes sense. If not, let him play on the tender, but you're not getting anything if he leaves next offseason. Don't forget we also drafted Tyrie Cleveland last year, and we might have something there too. You're not going to line Patrick up consistently in the slot, and why would you line him up opposite Sutton after spending a 1st and 2nd round draft pick on Jeudy and Hamler? He's basically a poor man's Sutton, and he's not returning kicks. I like Patrick, but that also means that some other team probably likes him, and he doesn't have a role besides depth with Sutton healthy.
                  I know what he's saying. This is football, not Fourier transforms.

                  Sutton (2019): Y/R 15, TD's 6, Catch % 58
                  Patrick (2020): Y/R 14, TD's 6, Catch % 64
                  Jeudy(2020): Y/R 16, TD's 3, Catch % 46
                  Hamler (2020): Y/R 12, TD's 3, Catch % 53

                  Rod Smith (career avg): Y/R 13, TD's (no avg), Catch % 60


                  I'll take Patrick any day of the week. He produces. Jeudy and Hamler are just the shiny, underperforming Corvette against a field of Porsche's and GTR's. Patrick's proved himself. Oh, and the Broncos have MORE than enough money. They're sporting something like $45M in cap space, while the top performing teams are in the red in cap space. They need to start spending money (like the Elway SB days) and put great players on their team, not pinch pennies and be the N.Y. Jets of the league.
                  Last edited by DiveInstructor; 02-27-2021, 01:26 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by listopencil View Post

                    We're making some assumptions here. And by 'we' I'm not being catty, I mean that we are all making some assumptions about our WR's.

                    1) That Sutton will come back from his injury and still be a dominant/impact/true #1WR. That's not unreasonable but it's not necessarily true either.
                    2) That Jeudy will get over his drops and become the weapon that we think he will be. Again not unreasonable but he had hands issues in college and there is no guarantee that he gets over it.
                    3) That our OC can use Hamler as something other than a gadget player. I'm not sold on this coming true although he was better as a rookie than I gave him credit for and he showed me that I shouldn't underestimate him.
                    4) That our depth WR's other than Patrick can develop into NFL players. I'd like to think this is true but I have seen no evidence of this whatsoever.

                    I saw what we have in Patrick. I like it. I want it. He can play. We can use him. In regards to the bolded part of your post; as of right now I'd rather have Sutton and Patrick on the outside with Jeudy in the slot as a 'normal' 3WR set. I think that would stress a Defense more regularly than putting Hamler out there. Maybe Hamler proves me wrong again, I don't know, but that's how I see it right now. I see Hamler as a gadget player.

                    I would second-round tender Patrick for RG Wyatt Davis.
                    If Tim stayed, his salary would be roughly 3.5M next year.
                    Then, I'd immediately extend him 2 years to a back-loaded $15M/3Y contract.

                    Sadly, covid, injuries, drops all affected last year.
                    I think the original plan was Jeudy in the slot with Hamler spilling him,
                    and Sutton, Patrick, Cleveland spilling each on the outside.

                    I'd love Pitts to be the pick at 9.
                    Denver's offense would be unstoppable with Sutton and Pitts outside,
                    Jeudy in the slot, Fant at TE, punctuated with a hungry RFA Lindsay!

                    Hope.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                      I know what he's saying. This is football, not Fourier transforms.

                      Sutton (2019): Y/R 15, TD's 6, Catch % 58
                      Patrick (2020): Y/R 14, TD's 6, Catch % 64
                      Jeudy(2020): Y/R 16, TD's 3, Catch % 46
                      Hamler (2020): Y/R 12, TD's 3, Catch % 53

                      Rod Smith (career avg): Y/R 13, TD's (no avg), Catch % 60


                      I'll take Patrick any day of the week. He produces. Jeudy and Hamler are just the shiny, underperforming Corvette against a field of Porsche's and GTR's. Patrick's proved himself. Oh, and the Broncos have MORE than enough money. They're sporting something like $45M in cap space, while the top performing teams are in the red in cap space. They need to start spending money (like the Elway SB days) and put great players on their team, not pinch pennies and be the N.Y. Jets of the league.
                      I agree about Patrick but disagree on the bold.

                      I'd grade Elway's contract negotiating a B+ but an A for effort.
                      For example, Elway didn't overpay for Harris Jr., and Bouye's release has $0 dead money.

                      Plus, Elway has put the Broncos in its current position to potentially absorb Watson's contract.
                      If it makes you feel any better, Sutton will get overpaid.

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                      • #26
                        You guys are right. Let's sign Patrick to a long term deal, and then make him our number 2 receiver opposite Sutton. Let's do that instead of tendering him, and waiting to see how healthy Sutton is. Then, if Sutton does come back to full strength, we can have 20 million against the cap tied up in Tim Patrick and Courtland Sutton who are the same type of receiver.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                          The first down or touchdown doesn't count if you don't have possession of the football. Some of the most effective WR's and TE's on the Broncos weren't the fastest guys on the field. Last draft was like watching Al Davis in action again. Pathetic.
                          Of course. I’m not disagreeing. You have to catch the ball to have any kind of success. The thing about those effective WRs and TEs were that they knew how to run routes and separate. If the athletic ability wasn’t all there, then the technique was.

                          That’s why even the most technical guys still get drafted despite not having the best hands. Which was my answer to the guy’s question. Al Davis receivers were all straight-line speed and nothing else. Couldn’t run routes, had no inkling of effective technique.
                          2020 Adopt-A-Bronco: #10 JERRY JEUDY
                          Previous Adoptees: #25 CHRIS HARRIS, #38 QUINTON CARTER, #43 TJ WARD

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                          • #28
                            Jerry needs to work on his ball skills. That is on him.

                            IMO the Broncos offensive coaching need to work on how they use Jerry. After we drafted Jerry I watched tons of his highlights and immediately realized how his route running could put him on the same level as Welker / Edelman / Stokes....but Jerry has way better physical tools than all them. I saw scary few plays ran all season that actually allowed Jerry to take advantage of his skillsets.

                            It is not just Jerry....in general our offensive game plans and plays seemed to have little thought about the skill sets of the 2020 Broncos and more to do with other players Shurmur has used in his previous teams.

                            It got slightly better as the season went on but it was obvious to me the lack of preparation going on before the games because I have seen good coaches make better adjustments during a 2 game stretch than Shurmur made over the course of a whole season.
                            Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mozzerpete View Post

                              I agree about Patrick but disagree on the bold.

                              I'd grade Elway's contract negotiating a B+ but an A for effort.
                              For example, Elway didn't overpay for Harris Jr., and Bouye's release has $0 dead money.

                              Plus, Elway has put the Broncos in its current position to potentially absorb Watson's contract.
                              If it makes you feel any better, Sutton will get overpaid.
                              His contract management reflects itself in the team's record, not in a few cherry-picked instances. What about his signing of James, who had a history of doing what he's doing here? Flacco? After Manning left, and much of the stars of that team, the Broncos are basement dwellers. They've become insignificant. Elway's car salesman mentality is glaringly evident.

                              Look at that ranking of teams by cap space. It's pretty obvious the good teams, for the most part, spend money, and the penny pinchers with their economical prudence have the most space and scare nobody in the league. I'm hoping Paton changes that, although I'm not sure if he will. Time will tell.

                              Saving space for Watson? Umm....tell ya what....if Watson gets signed (which I highly doubt will happen, and I don't believe the front office is planning on it), I'll admit Paton's a genius and was planning ahead. If he doesn't, you get to admit this team is cheap and willing to stay at the bottom of the league. Ok? I'm done buying the glass-half-full speculation with this team. They need to prove it before I believe it.
                              Last edited by DiveInstructor; 02-27-2021, 08:11 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by DiveInstructor View Post

                                His contract management reflects itself in the team's record, not in a few cherry-picked instances. What about his signing of James, who had a history of doing what he's doing here? Flacco? After Manning left, and much of the stars of that team, the Broncos are basement dwellers. They've become insignificant. Elway's car salesman mentality is glaringly evident.

                                Look at that ranking of teams by cap space. It's pretty obvious the good teams, for the most part, spend money, and the penny pinchers with their economical prudence have the most space and scare nobody in the league. I'm hoping Paton changes that, although I'm not sure if he will. Time will tell.

                                Saving space for Watson? Umm....tell ya what....if Watson gets signed (which I highly doubt will happen, and I don't believe the front office is planning on it), I'll admit Paton's a genius and was planning ahead. If he doesn't, you get to admit this team is cheap and willing to stay at the bottom of the league. Ok? I'm done buying the glass-half-full speculation with this team. They need to prove it before I believe it.
                                Well, let's look at this offseason alone. Who do you want to re-sign? Say we have the 43 or so to play with. Simmons is 14 per, the tender on AJ is 3.5 (re-signed is probably around 10) and, assuming the other teams still don't think Shelby is all that, let's call it 5. Then, we can say that Simmons is structured to lower the '21 cap hit. So, let's just say that keeping those three around will be a floor of around 20. If we're tendering Patrick, there's another 3.5. Lindsay is another 3.5. One of our right tackles is another 1-2. Then, we have the rookies (10+), followed by depth signings. So, what I'm saying is, where is he supposed to splurge? We have guys who we can cut like Vannett, Driskel, and Hamilton to save a little, but not a lot. If we do cut Vannett, we have to make decisions on Butt and Fumagalli. Conversely, we can cut Jackson, but then we're down a starting safety. A lot of people here think Parks, who also needs to be re-signed, can step in seamlessly for him, but I don't.

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