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  • #31
    Originally posted by LordTrychon View Post

    This is a solid, not insulting or over the top explanation of exactly the view I was saying I can understand.

    I totally get where you're coming from, and it's fair. I have close friends that feel very much the same, and I don't blame them either.

    I believe Bridgewater was a solid choice as QB2 for now because he has been in Shurm's system, and *I* personally felt he was about to break out prior to his injury, and I wasn't alone. He's also a great locker room and overall guy, who will be willing to help Lock or would have been willing to help a rookie (or even a vet who hasn't been in the system before) if we liked one that fell to us. I don't think at any point they are saying to themselves... 'We got Bridgewater, so we're set.' I don't think they view him as a 'Franchise Talent' as you put it. He's good for helping others, and great as a backup, should our QB1 go down, or in Lock's case, fail to progress. While nobody is saying Bridgewater is a Franchise carrying QB, almost everyone would say that he is a top tier backup. He's such a massive upgrade over our previous backups, it seems a bit silly to trash the move to me.

    I think that if a QB was there that they felt was a large upgrade to Lock fell to them at 9, they would have taken him (unless they're holding out for Rodgers). They didn't, so I assume that one didn't.

    You say you'd like Paton to explain it in a way that makes sense... but he has. He has said repeatedly that they are high on Lock, but they are going to also look at bringing in any other QB who they believe can improve the team. Bridgewater was an instant upgrade. We've kicked the tires on several other options. You may not believe what Paton is saying. You may think he's blowing smoke. Is it possible though that he has given you the explanation you are looking for, and you're subconsciously disregarding it because you don't agree?

    I could provide you with highlights of Lock that have made me feel that he has a chance to be a franchise talent, but you have already seen these and have made up your mind. So no shred of evidence I could bring would be something new to you. All reports have been that despite the fact that we've been looking at possible upgrades, he's been working his butt off all season to improve. He passes the eye test for me, I see enough in his play style and approach and talent and leadership that I feel he can turn a corner in a way that I have not felt about any of the names you mentioned before (I liked Siemien as a bridge, wanted Bridgewater over Keenum, tbh, but haven't been high on any of the others). Paton says he has seen enough from Lock to be comfortable riding with him.

    I disagree with you on our QB situation, but I do want to say thank you for writing out the opposition view so well.
    Well said and that’s fair. I agree with your take on Bridgewater, so then it must all have to do with how good they think Lock can be with Teddy B’s help and I’ll give you that makes a certain kind of sense.

    I just have a hard time putting all the eggs in that basket and passing on drafting a possible upgrade. I guess I would feel differently, even be willing to overlook being at the bottom among starters in QBR last year and leading the league in interceptions if Paton was sitting there saying “wow, I’ve been around a lot of good quarterbacks in my time and from what I’m seeing I’m telling you Drew could be special.” But he’s not saying that. It’s lukewarm comments. It’s “he’s working hard.” It’s not “Drew is the unquestioned starter for next year.” Its “we feel good about our quarterback room.” Have you ever heard that from anyone with a franchise guy? Instead we’re hearing it’s going to be an open competition to push Drew. That’s not a ringing endorsement and shouldn’t be reassuring to anyone. To me it sings mediocrity and we get enough of that from the Rockies.

    I respect what you said. You make some excellent points and what you are saying makes sense. More importantly, as a fan I really hope you are right and I am wrong.

    To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Humberg View Post

      Well said and that’s fair. I agree with your take on Bridgewater, so then it must all have to do with how good they think Lock can be with Teddy B’s help and I’ll give you that makes a certain kind of sense.

      I just have a hard time putting all the eggs in that basket and passing on drafting a possible upgrade. I guess I would feel differently, even be willing to overlook being at the bottom among starters in QBR last year and leading the league in interceptions if Paton was sitting there saying “wow, I’ve been around a lot of good quarterbacks in my time and from what I’m seeing I’m telling you Drew could be special.” But he’s not saying that. It’s lukewarm comments. It’s “he’s working hard.” It’s not “Drew is the unquestioned starter for next year.” Its “we feel good about our quarterback room.” Have you ever heard that from anyone with a franchise guy? Instead we’re hearing it’s going to be an open competition to push Drew. That’s not a ringing endorsement and shouldn’t be reassuring to anyone. To me it sings mediocrity and we get enough of that from the Rockies.

      I respect what you said. You make some excellent points and what you are saying makes sense. More importantly, as a fan I really hope you are right and I am wrong.
      Hey, man... I respect that too.

      I know I'm not only on the rose colored glasses side of things, but I'm pretty heavy on that side of things. I also do my best to look at things as logically as I can in the process to be fair.

      I am not saying that I think Lock deserves or is getting a ringing endorsement. He's just under .500 as a starter in his first 18 games, and his second year definitely was a regression. I just also fall on the side that sees all of the issues that we went through in the past year, particularly with as many first and second year players we had after all the injuries. A single rookie on a mostly veteran team may take their time getting into stride and really taking off... and you give them a bit of leeway. You have multiple rookies and second year players all in a new system trying to figure it out at the same time, and it's a bit of a mess. I just also am at the very least ok with him getting an additional shot after just 18 starts.

      When his talent flashes, and even sometimes when he's making mistakes... he looks like a good QB in the making to me. I know the numbers don't back it up well and you really have to cherry pick if you're going to try to support his play. He just looks like someone who can make that leap to me. I never got that feeling from Lynch. Not even in preseason or the early on. Right from the get go, I just had a feeling he didn't have it. I have the opposite with Drew. That's really the best way I can see it.

      So with the injuries and schedule and everything else we had to go through, the record we ended up with didn't really shock me.

      If we can get Rodgers, I want him. He's a clear upgrade. I would have also taken pre-accusation Watson (if the accusations never happened) and Stafford. The costs or circumstances prevented it and I'm ok with that. If not, I'm looking forward to seeing Drew take his next steps forward. I hope he does amazing.

      If he doesn't, I think Bridgewater can at least get dragged to the Playoffs, depending on what shape we're actually in when we give up on Lock.

      Thanks, Reid!
      sigpic
      Click on my sig to read JetRazor's and my story. Or PM me with any questions.

      Comment


      • #33
        I have to give Paton a solid A- overall grade for the draft he just did. He got some gems and really worked the board well. To say it was his first draft he did a really solid job. I'd have given him an A if he addressed the Qb spot like I felt he should have in round 1.

        The rest of the draft really turned my thoughts about him around. We lost Lindsay but Williams is every bit as good, I love his fire and he almost never goes down on first contact. Meinerz can sure up our inside and provide some depth, these two stand out for me. Plus he got a new redzone threat in Seth Williams out of Auburn.

        Him Sutton Fant or Albert O in redzone is unfair. We get a Qb we in business and no we do not have one as of right now that'd my view ain't no changing it my mind is set. Anyways this is about Paton and sir I mile high salute you on your first draft. Wonderful....again I'm impressed with how he worked the board. Very solid job if I may say so myself.
        :go:

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Humberg View Post

          Well said and that’s fair. I agree with your take on Bridgewater, so then it must all have to do with how good they think Lock can be with Teddy B’s help and I’ll give you that makes a certain kind of sense.

          I just have a hard time putting all the eggs in that basket and passing on drafting a possible upgrade. I guess I would feel differently, even be willing to overlook being at the bottom among starters in QBR last year and leading the league in interceptions if Paton was sitting there saying “wow, I’ve been around a lot of good quarterbacks in my time and from what I’m seeing I’m telling you Drew could be special.” But he’s not saying that. It’s lukewarm comments. It’s “he’s working hard.” It’s not “Drew is the unquestioned starter for next year.” Its “we feel good about our quarterback room.” Have you ever heard that from anyone with a franchise guy? Instead we’re hearing it’s going to be an open competition to push Drew. That’s not a ringing endorsement and shouldn’t be reassuring to anyone. To me it sings mediocrity and we get enough of that from the Rockies.

          I respect what you said. You make some excellent points and what you are saying makes sense. More importantly, as a fan I really hope you are right and I am wrong.
          Not a football response but man your rockies...I do thank you for Nolan Arenado though, that guy is a stud. Yes I'm a cardinals guy lol. You guys will bounce back soon I hope though but I know it's not the season yall wanted so far.
          :go:

          Comment


          • #35
            https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...?partner=Yahoo

            Comment


            • #36
              Lol he didn’t even mention Royce Freeman

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Humberg View Post
                Yes there are some admirable things here. You could throw in how he’s handled free agency and it’s an impressive start. Still though, he’s left our most important position room filled by questionable (not saying it will never pan out but even the most ardent of fans have to admit it’s questionable) starting talent.

                And that’s true even though there were opportunities to add potentially significantly more talent to that room through the draft. At this point, his promise to bring in competition to the quarterback room looks like he meant Teddy B. who is, by most accounts, a backup. If that’s his idea of bringing in competition (meaning that he thinks Drew will have a challenge there) then I think it’s clear that starting talent needs to be re-examined.

                So admittedly, Paton has done some things that are good, but neglecting significant needs like quarterback (and not to mention would it be too much to ask Denver to draft a starting inside linebacker finally?) is kind of a Sisyphusian endeavor (it is bound to fail repeatedly and thus has no point).
                I'm not saying Paton can predict the future, but maybe he knows more about the Rodgers situation than we do????

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Humberg View Post
                  I see a lot on here urging people not to judge the decisions of the front office, to have patience, that we should give Lock a chance.

                  I hear what you all are saying, and like I’ve said in other posts, Paton is doing some good things and there’s reason to believe he has a good head about him, but my point is this particular decision in the first round makes no sense. We now have trusted this front office for the past five years and the product put out by them was just bad. Nowhere else has this been more painfully evident than the performance of the quarterback room. Now they’ve apparently put together a plan that includes rolling with Lock who, no matter how you cut it, was not good enough last year and fell below expectations and Teddy B who most experts consider a backup level talent at this point. We’ve had chances during that time to draft quarterback talent in the first round and we passed and our quarterback play continued to be bad. And it just happened again. Does that make sense? Should that make us feel good about the direction this is headed?

                  Now when you are in that situation, with that history having played out, you pass on first round quarterback talent, top ten quarterback talent, and the only explanations are that you “feel good about our quarterback room” and that “the acquisition of Bridgewater made us feel good about not going with Fields” and that is what you are offering up to fans? Can you understand why that wouldn’t sit well with the fan base? Why it shouldn’t? It’s the approach that Cleveland, Washington and Detroit take with their organizations. If it makes sense to do this, then (Paton) explain it in a way that makes sense. I haven’t heard that yet and I doubt any of you have either.

                  Do you need me to list the names of our past starting quarterbacks and the same sentiments that have been said about them despite large evidence to the contrary? Sanchez? Flacco? Siemien? Keenum? C’mon. Fool me once... I’ll eat crow right now if ANYONE can produce a shred of evidence that either of these quarterbacks is franchise talent. I don’t think anyone can because the game evidence isn’t there. You’re rolling with a quarterback who was one of the worst in terms of performance among starters in the league last season and someone who another team thought was worth a sixth round draft choice and that team was still willing to pay the majority of their salary. That’s what this strategy is based on. It’s based on wishful thinking and optimistic projection. It’s playing the lottery for your retirement plan.

                  Hey, I’ll be the loudest one cheering if Lock turns into a franchise quarterback, don’t get me wrong, but you also can’t be stupid as an organization and not hedge your bets with the most vital and important position in football. You have to keep accumulating talent at the quarterback position from high yield areas (like a top ten draft choice) until you have an established solution there. From a stats projective, it’s a bad gamble to think that our quarterback room is going to work out (based on their stats and historical precedents) and that one of these top ten talents wouldn’t have given you some insurance or put you in a better situation.
                  Great post and couldn't agree more. I have been lambasted for my critique of the 1st pick. The disconnect with fans on how the value of the pick was wasted is exhausting. If Paton was to trade Fields and Surtain right now, who would garner more picks, better players, etc.?

                  A middle-of-the-road QB is more valuable than the best CB in the league. Just look at a player's WAR and even more important look at the top salaries in the NFL. There's ONE DB in the top 35, and that's Ramsey, and he barely made that list. You know who's making more $ than Ramsey, Teddy Bridgewater, a backup QB.

                  Even if, and it's a BIG IF, the Broncos land Rodgers then Fields would make that or any other trade that much easier.

                  Now for those who kneejerk and say "What if Surtain becomes an all-pro and an all-time Bronco?" Well, who was more valuable to the Broncos, John Elway or Champ Bailey?

                  Lastly, for the ignorant that parrot a deluge of disinformation about Fields are the most disappointing.
                  • According to PFF's wins above average metric (WAA), Fields has been the most valuable quarterback in college football over the last two seasons. He made plays both through the air and on the ground, posting a PFF grade of 91.5 in 2019 and 93.5 in 2020, both of which were top-five marks among FBS quarterbacks.
                  • Fields had the highest score ever on the NFL-PAT (Player's Assessment Test). This new test has been implemented since 2013 and will likely replace the Wonderlic. Fields scored 130 points, which is in the top 1% of over 6,500 athletes that have taken it. Mahomes and Allen got a 108. He also finished OSU with a 3.9 GPA.
                  • Fields ran a 4.4 at his Pro-Day and has an absolute cannon, but prefers to work from the pocket.
                  • Fields created a petition that got over 75,000 signatures and had press conferences pressuring the BIG10 to allow football.
                  For anyone to question his talents, commitment, or leadership is ignorant and is obviously in the "MY TEAM DOES NO WRONG!!!" camp with their head in the sand. To think "they have a plan" is ridiculous. How many Super Bowls does Paton have? The Broncos haven't been over .500 since 2016, and without a franchise QB that's not likely to change. If you look at teams with the top defenses over the last 10 years only a few in the top-5 won the SB, and they had QBs with names like Manning and Brady. Even with a great defense, and having 9-8 or 10-7 seasons the likelihood of winning the SB or maintaining perennial success without a franchise QB is statistically unlikely.
                  Last edited by Buckeye Bronco; 05-05-2021, 10:51 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Humberg View Post
                    I see a lot on here urging people not to judge the decisions of the front office, to have patience, that we should give Lock a chance.

                    I hear what you all are saying, and like I’ve said in other posts, Paton is doing some good things and there’s reason to believe he has a good head about him, but my point is this particular decision in the first round makes no sense. We now have trusted this front office for the past five years and the product put out by them was just bad. Nowhere else has this been more painfully evident than the performance of the quarterback room. Now they’ve apparently put together a plan that includes rolling with Lock who, no matter how you cut it, was not good enough last year and fell below expectations and Teddy B who most experts consider a backup level talent at this point. We’ve had chances during that time to draft quarterback talent in the first round and we passed and our quarterback play continued to be bad. And it just happened again. Does that make sense? Should that make us feel good about the direction this is headed?

                    Now when you are in that situation, with that history having played out, you pass on first round quarterback talent, top ten quarterback talent, and the only explanations are that you “feel good about our quarterback room” and that “the acquisition of Bridgewater made us feel good about not going with Fields” and that is what you are offering up to fans? Can you understand why that wouldn’t sit well with the fan base? Why it shouldn’t? It’s the approach that Cleveland, Washington and Detroit take with their organizations. If it makes sense to do this, then (Paton) explain it in a way that makes sense. I haven’t heard that yet and I doubt any of you have either.

                    Do you need me to list the names of our past starting quarterbacks and the same sentiments that have been said about them despite large evidence to the contrary? Sanchez? Flacco? Siemien? Keenum? C’mon. Fool me once... I’ll eat crow right now if ANYONE can produce a shred of evidence that either of these quarterbacks is franchise talent. I don’t think anyone can because the game evidence isn’t there. You’re rolling with a quarterback who was one of the worst in terms of performance among starters in the league last season and someone who another team thought was worth a sixth round draft choice and that team was still willing to pay the majority of their salary. That’s what this strategy is based on. It’s based on wishful thinking and optimistic projection. It’s playing the lottery for your retirement plan.

                    Hey, I’ll be the loudest one cheering if Lock turns into a franchise quarterback, don’t get me wrong, but you also can’t be stupid as an organization and not hedge your bets with the most vital and important position in football. You have to keep accumulating talent at the quarterback position from high yield areas (like a top ten draft choice) until you have an established solution there. From a stats projective, it’s a bad gamble to think that our quarterback room is going to work out (based on their stats and historical precedents) and that one of these top ten talents wouldn’t have given you some insurance or put you in a better situation.
                    Great post first of all! The only concern i have with your statement in regards to drafting a top 10 pick until you have a solution there comment. What scares me about that is we are then doing what teams like Browns, Bears and Titans do and it hasn't panned out for them. I personally would take Bridgewater over Trubiskey,Mariotta, and forgot kids name from Texas that the Browns took few years back.

                    We have seen cases where late round picks can become stars, TD, and Brady for instance. I know we don't have that right now, but if we did like those other teams we might not have Juedy, Surtain, Chubb you know what i mean? I'm with you as far as of right now we don't have a legit amount to go off of in terms of games, but how many OC's has Drew been under since being here? I'm asking genuinely not being a smart alec, i literally have been out of loop for a while so just trying to better understand i guess.
                    Last edited by BroncosRockdaRockies; 05-05-2021, 08:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Buckeye Bronco View Post

                      Great post and couldn't agree more. I have been lambasted for my critique of the 1st pick. The disconnect with fans on how the value of the pick was wasted is exhausting. If Paton was to trade Fields and Surtain right now, who would garner more picks, better players, etc.?

                      A middle-of-the-road QB is more valuable than the best CB in the league. Just look at a player's WAR and even more important look at the top salaries in the NFL. There's ONE DB in the top 35, and that's Ramsey, and he barely made that list. You know who's making more $ than Ramsey, Teddy Bridgewater, a backup QB.

                      Even if, and it's a BIG IF, the Broncos land Rodgers then Fields would make that or any other trade that much easier.
                      ....
                      So you think we should have traded our #9 pick for Stafford or Darnold and Darnold's only one year older? They were both rated higher coming out, and drafted higher, than Fields or Jones were.

                      Also, using hindsight which of these QBs would you have taken over Champ Bailey?

                      These are the QBs drafted the same year Champ Bailey was drafted as the first Defensive player taken that year, #7 overall. Coincedently there were also 5 QBs taken in the first round that year too.

                      1 1 CLE Tim Couch
                      1 2 PHI Donovan McNabb
                      1 3 CIN Akili Smith
                      1 11 MIN Daunte Culpepper
                      1 12 CHI Cade McNown


                      2 50 TAM Shaun King
                      3 77 SEA Brock Huard
                      4 101 STL Joe Germaine
                      4 131 GNB Aaron Brooks

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Any judgement on Paton now is more about what the person judging him wanted him to do than any measure of his actual job.

                        If Lock or Teddy play above average at QB and the defense does what it looks like...and the Broncos make the playoffs....all the sudden Paton looks like he did a good job. If Fields and Mac Jones become busts like so many other Qbs....then it looks like Paton did a good job. If those QBs become busts but the Bronco fail to develop the draft picks we did get...then it looks like Paton did a bad job. Point it we will not know what kind of job he has done for least a year...maybe more actually.

                        Go ahead and express feelings. Get it out. Feel like you got something off your chest.
                        Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by skeeter01 View Post
                          The man is genius. Does not give up on the development of Drew Lock. He see's him putting in the effort, working with Peyton Manning. He fills the defense full of top notch secondary to stop the division rivals.....supporting the strength of the head coach. He gives the offense a superb immediate and future running back. He never gives up his tendency's, he never over pays, he....I could go on......
                          The Jets drafted to the strength of Rex Ryan rather than Mark Sanchez and it eventually bit them in the ass. Ryan inherited one of the best offensive lines and let it go to crap just so he could install his defense. That’s not to say I think they should have drafted offense. I wanted Micah Parsons, if they decided to not draft a quarterback.

                          I like the running back pick.

                          Paton doesn’t have a track record for anyone to say he never does this or that.

                          We will see over time what his tendencies are.

                          We will also see how committed to Lock he is when the Packers put Rodgers on the trading block.
                          My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                          You Mad Bro?
                          Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Grabbing Caden instead of OT Tommy Doyle in the 5th was a massive miss for me. Questionable decision making there that is already beginning to bite us. We kind of lucked into Jamar Johnson, as he has 2nd and 3rd round grades by a lot of draft experts... if Tommy wouldn't have been picked right before Jamar, we would have missed him and grabbed Tommy... but we could have had our cake and ate it too. I suppose hindsight is 20/20. If Caden Sterns somehow stays healthy and channels his freshman year in college and turns out, I'll happily eat crow.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by broncolee View Post

                              The Jets drafted to the strength of Rex Ryan rather than Mark Sanchez and it eventually bit them in the ass. Ryan inherited one of the best offensive lines and let it go to crap just so he could install his defense. That’s not to say I think they should have drafted offense. I wanted Micah Parsons, if they decided to not draft a quarterback.

                              I like the running back pick.

                              Paton doesn’t have a track record for anyone to say he never does this or that.

                              We will see over time what his tendencies are.

                              We will also see how committed to Lock he is when the Packers put Rodgers on the trading block.
                              Well, he refused to trade him when the Stafford Deal was on the table, and Stafford is younger than Rogers....by 4 years I believe....so we'll see what happens.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hadez View Post
                                Any judgement on Paton now is more about what the person judging him wanted him to do than any measure of his actual job.

                                If Lock or Teddy play above average at QB and the defense does what it looks like...and the Broncos make the playoffs....all the sudden Paton looks like he did a good job. If Fields and Mac Jones become busts like so many other Qbs....then it looks like Paton did a good job. If those QBs become busts but the Bronco fail to develop the draft picks we did get...then it looks like Paton did a bad job. Point it we will not know what kind of job he has done for least a year...maybe more actually.

                                Go ahead and express feelings. Get it out. Feel like you got something off your chest.
                                Thanks for your post.

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