Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

4th Down Fangio

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by listopencil View Post
    My sphincter tightened on that first one. Gotta admit. But my inner chaos demon smiled and laughed. Just another great Bronco memory. Remember Shanny going for 2 against SD? Not quite that dramatic but memorable for sure.
    Shanahan had a HUGE pair. I remember more than once, we would score a TD in the 4th, and a PAT would tie. But Mike would go for the 2.
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by brianmcfarlane View Post

      I don't like the 5 wide set ... too often. As you say going with Gordon and Williams won't be in the backfield and aren't an option to run. Yes, you can have the 2 TEs with the 5 "wide" set but again it takes the RB, running out of the picture. Don't get me wrong, I like 5 wide maybe ~15%, maybe a little more depending on the match up but I prefer having a RB in the formation the vast majority of the plays. I kind of think a 12 personnel is the better formation "most" of the time because it gives many options, the 5 wide eliminates the run play except for the QB running which I want to limit.
      just my .02

      But if there’s a RB on the field, they can come out 5 wide just to see how the defense lines up and identify the defensive personnel and then do a complete audible to a typical 12 formation and now you might possibly have 2 extra DBs trying to bang with olinemen. And once you show that once or twice teams are going to try and keep their LBs on the field giving us a big mismatch either way they play it. I don’t think any team would try a dime or quarter defense against that group in a 5 wide for that very reason and even then a nickel defense would still make it hard to stop the run if the offense does shift and if we don’t at least one of Gordon/Williams, AOK, Fant would have a LB on them and I’d be comfortable with that matchup.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by brianmcfarlane View Post

        I don't like the 5 wide set ... too often. As you say going with Gordon and Williams won't be in the backfield and aren't an option to run. Yes, you can have the 2 TEs with the 5 "wide" set but again it takes the RB, running out of the picture. Don't get me wrong, I like 5 wide maybe ~15%, maybe a little more depending on the match up but I prefer having a RB in the formation the vast majority of the plays. I kind of think a 12 personnel is the better formation "most" of the time because it gives many options, the 5 wide eliminates the run play except for the QB running which I want to limit.
        just my .02

        I want them to go with what allows them to put the better players on the field, but also mix it up a bit, and all within the scheme of the Offensive Coordinator. For instance; 3WR. Shurmur likes it, Bridgewater has the Football IQ to take advantage of it, and we have the personnel (when everyone is healthy) to run it very well. So even though it's not my personal preference I can see why they'd use it a lot. Now that Jeudy is out though I am not confident that having Hamler out there as the #3WR is better than having a 2nd TE when we have some talent at the TE position. Is Hamler more effective than both Fant and Albert O? I don't know. I think it's situational and I wouldn't mind a lot more 2WR/2TE/1RB while Jeudy is out. It's going to be interesting, but even without Jeudy we have some skill guys that should allow Shurmur to still put together a creative and effective game plan.
        Adopt-A-Bronco: Jonathon Cooper

        Comment


        • #19
          Maybe it's a cultural thing.
          you saw a lot of teams across the whole league going for 4th downs.

          Would love to see stats comparing how many attempts this year( in week 1 ) compared to previous years week 1 attempts at 4th down conversions
          :goz::helmet::helmet::helmet::goz:

          Comment


          • #20
            I was surprised to see him go for it so many times. Interesting that they were all passes. It will be interesting to see if it becomes a theme this year. I liked how it turned out for this game - especially the TB juke scramble for a TD.

            sigpic

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by RocketArm006 View Post
              I was surprised to see him go for it so many times. Interesting that they were all passes. It will be interesting to see if it becomes a theme this year. I liked how it turned out for this game - especially the TB juke scramble for a TD.
              It has to be demoralizing to a Defense to get a team to 4th down and then have them convert it several times.
              Adopt-A-Bronco: Jonathon Cooper

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by listopencil View Post

                It has to be demoralizing to a Defense to get a team to 4th down and then have them convert it several times.
                Definitely. I liked that they went for it in those situations. I will be interested to see if he does it often this season.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #23
                  There were a lot of Posts, at the end of pre-season games, that claimed Fangio would never "go for it on 4th down during the regular season ", and that somehow it was part of the conspiracy to keep the likes of drew lock off the field.

                  I'd like to hear from that group.

                  And if the rumors are true, I'd also like to see Cam Newton as the backup QB, and the veteran drew lock, cut, as the Broncos are unlikely to receive even a "conditional" 7th Round draft choice for lock.

                  To avoid locker room issues, it is common for NFL teams to dispatch a veteran who has been beaten out of his starting position. And lock has certainly been beaten out by a superior QB, and doesn't deserve a roster spot on this team. Time to move on.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                    There were a lot of Posts, at the end of pre-season games, that claimed Fangio would never "go for it on 4th down during the regular season ", and that somehow it was part of the conspiracy to keep the likes of drew lock off the field.

                    I'd like to hear from that group.

                    And if the rumors are true, I'd also like to see Cam Newton as the backup QB, and the veteran drew lock, cut, as the Broncos are unlikely to receive even a "conditional" 7th Round draft choice for lock.

                    To avoid locker room issues, it is common for NFL teams to dispatch a veteran who has been beaten out of his starting position. And lock has certainly been beaten out by a superior QB, and doesn't deserve a roster spot on this team. Time to move on.
                    Gross, you lost me at Cam Newton. Lock is just a more likable version of Newton.

                    I think it's too early to crown bridgewater the starter for the year.. Lock has had some great games too. Let's see how we feel after a loss or poor qb play by 🧸

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                      There were a lot of Posts, at the end of pre-season games, that claimed Fangio would never "go for it on 4th down during the regular season ", and that somehow it was part of the conspiracy to keep the likes of drew lock off the field.

                      I'd like to hear from that group.

                      And if the rumors are true, I'd also like to see Cam Newton as the backup QB, and the veteran drew lock, cut, as the Broncos are unlikely to receive even a "conditional" 7th Round draft choice for lock.

                      To avoid locker room issues, it is common for NFL teams to dispatch a veteran who has been beaten out of his starting position. And lock has certainly been beaten out by a superior QB, and doesn't deserve a roster spot on this team. Time to move on.
                      I didn’t think we would be that aggressive on 4th down but I was not apart of any conspiracy, I just didn’t think it should factor that greatly in the QB battle and I don’t think it did. I’m pretty sure everyone would rather convert on 3rd than 4th. Ultimately I believed the fumbles cost Lock the starting job.

                      As for Cam, he’s done. Years of horrific mechanics have ruined his arm and age is taking its toll on his athleticism and durability. If you sign Cam, you still need a 3rd QB. Although I would entertain the idea of having him on the practice squad.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by listopencil View Post

                        I want them to go with what allows them to put the better players on the field, but also mix it up a bit, and all within the scheme of the Offensive Coordinator. For instance; 3WR. Shurmur likes it, Bridgewater has the Football IQ to take advantage of it, and we have the personnel (when everyone is healthy) to run it very well. So even though it's not my personal preference I can see why they'd use it a lot. Now that Jeudy is out though I am not confident that having Hamler out there as the #3WR is better than having a 2nd TE when we have some talent at the TE position. Is Hamler more effective than both Fant and Albert O? I don't know. I think it's situational and I wouldn't mind a lot more 2WR/2TE/1RB while Jeudy is out. It's going to be interesting, but even without Jeudy we have some skill guys that should allow Shurmur to still put together a creative and effective game plan.
                        To piggyback off this as well as my earlier post, I do think our TEs are matchup nightmares. AOK seems to have really improved as a blocker. I didn’t key in on Fant’s blocking but he’s never had an issue as far as willingness to block, he’s just struggled with technique. But obviously they’re headaches to deal with in the passing game which brings me to Hamler. Hamler is looked at as a WR and with his speed he forces defenses to have 3 CBs on the field and he also forces defenses into certain coverages that generally mandate at least 1 safety staying deep, however Hamler does have issues with drops as we all know. With that in mind, I would like to see that 5 wide grouping with Sutton, Patrick, Hamler, Fant, and AOK because defenses will want to go to dime or at least a “big” dime so they can have a safety or corner on either Fant or AOK. So when defenses come out with that grouping, I’d like to see us switch into a typical 11 personnel formation with whichever TE drawing the LB staying out wide and the other TE coming down as an in-line TE and Hamler moonlighting as the RB.

                        A defense is going to want that LB to switch with whoever was guarding Hamler so they aren’t so light in the box. That can create a lot of confusion amongst the defense or if they do get the LB over there in time, we now have KJ Hamler one on one with a LB out of the backfield. If they don’t, they now have 2 DBs masquerading as LBs against what is likely going to be some sort of inside run. And that’s if we don’t force the other team to burn a timeout just to get out of a bad grouping. Teams might opt to take their chances with Hamler running the ball against a light box since he isn’t really a RB and despite having return man experience he probably isn’t nearly as adept at reading running lanes or setting up blockers from that close up. However, if we get a hat on a hat, it’s a big play waiting to happen.

                        All this will take time though, multiple people will need to know multiple spots and they’ll have to have an in depth understanding of the playbooks and the audibles being made in order to go from one formation to another in the allotted time. While great in theory (IMO) it’s probably too much to execute especially if they haven’t already been working towards this and probably not something you’ll see unless it’s specifically in the “scripted” plays or a 2 minute drill.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post

                          To piggyback off this as well as my earlier post, I do think our TEs are matchup nightmares. AOK seems to have really improved as a blocker. I didn’t key in on Fant’s blocking but he’s never had an issue as far as willingness to block, he’s just struggled with technique. But obviously they’re headaches to deal with in the passing game which brings me to Hamler. Hamler is looked at as a WR and with his speed he forces defenses to have 3 CBs on the field and he also forces defenses into certain coverages that generally mandate at least 1 safety staying deep, however Hamler does have issues with drops as we all know. With that in mind, I would like to see that 5 wide grouping with Sutton, Patrick, Hamler, Fant, and AOK because defenses will want to go to dime or at least a “big” dime so they can have a safety or corner on either Fant or AOK. So when defenses come out with that grouping, I’d like to see us switch into a typical 11 personnel formation with whichever TE drawing the LB staying out wide and the other TE coming down as an in-line TE and Hamler moonlighting as the RB.

                          A defense is going to want that LB to switch with whoever was guarding Hamler so they aren’t so light in the box. That can create a lot of confusion amongst the defense or if they do get the LB over there in time, we now have KJ Hamler one on one with a LB out of the backfield. If they don’t, they now have 2 DBs masquerading as LBs against what is likely going to be some sort of inside run. And that’s if we don’t force the other team to burn a timeout just to get out of a bad grouping. Teams might opt to take their chances with Hamler running the ball against a light box since he isn’t really a RB and despite having return man experience he probably isn’t nearly as adept at reading running lanes or setting up blockers from that close up. However, if we get a hat on a hat, it’s a big play waiting to happen.

                          All this will take time though, multiple people will need to know multiple spots and they’ll have to have an in depth understanding of the playbooks and the audibles being made in order to go from one formation to another in the allotted time. While great in theory (IMO) it’s probably too much to execute especially if they haven’t already been working towards this and probably not something you’ll see unless it’s specifically in the “scripted” plays or a 2 minute drill.
                          A WR who is a serious threat lining up in the backfield is a page from Bill Walsh's playbook. The main concept of WCO was to dictate to defenses through the use of formations. No Backer can stay with Hamler in Cover 1, and if KJ is in the backfield he will most likely draw a Backer in that coverage. Hamler seems to get open a lot which is part speed, part routes and part coverage matchup. Pat Shurmur is a WCO guy, so I'm sure he will consider what you suggest.
                          "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                            A WR who is a serious threat lining up in the backfield is a page from Bill Walsh's playbook. The main concept of WCO was to dictate to defenses through the use of formations. No Backer can stay with Hamler in Cover 1, and if KJ is in the backfield he will most likely draw a Backer in that coverage. Hamler seems to get open a lot which is part speed, part routes and part coverage matchup. Pat Shurmur is a WCO guy, so I'm sure he will consider what you suggest.
                            To be honest, it’d probably be easier to do just by running an up tempo offense and making it hard to sub in and out. This varied group of skill sets gives you a lot of favorable matchups by dictating through formations, add in some tempo and the altitude and you have a recipe for a dangerous offense, especially if we can still grind out 16 play drives when we want to.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DEN4EVER View Post
                              Maybe it's a cultural thing.
                              you saw a lot of teams across the whole league going for 4th downs.

                              Would love to see stats comparing how many attempts this year( in week 1 ) compared to previous years week 1 attempts at 4th down conversions
                              NFL teams went for 4th-down conversions 51 times this past weekend, the highest single-week total in modern league history, up from 37 in Week 1 last year, 26 in 2019, and 22 in 2018. That year, in Week 1, teams went on 4th down eight times prior to the fourth quarter. Just three years later, that number ballooned to 33.
                              sigpic

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Go for It: The Story Behind the NFL’s Fourth-Down Conversion - The Ringer

                                This is an interesting story behind what many believe was the changed attitude towards going for it on 4th down. Of course it involved Bill Bellichick, and yes, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. It was in a key game between The Pats and Colts back in 2009, in which The Pats went for it on 4th down on their 28 yard line, leading by 6 points and with time running off the clock.... and failed. Only to have Manning hit Reggie Wayne for the winning score with 16 seconds left in the game. The Colts went on to the SB, but lost to The Saints.

                                I remember that game, and that failed play. And yes, the post reaction was not kind to BB.

                                But as a result, the conversation about 4th down plays eventually took on a different look. Analytics and deeper discussion about the merits of 4th down conversion attempts began to take root. And as a result, the stats (this article was written in 2019) have continued to show evidence that 4th down attempts/conversions are much more frequent than back in 2008, when Bill Belichick was lambasted for his failed attempt. Then again, who went for it from their 28 yard line on 4th down, with a 6 point lead back then??

                                In that regard, with Brady, I almost always wondered if The Pats would go on 4th down, even if a few yards to go, pending the time of the game and the field position. And The Ravens, with Jackson, are a sure bet to go, anywhere near mid field and up, at almost any time of the game. I used to complain having Tucker for my fantasy kicker, because his FG chances were way down once Jackson got Harbaugh's confidence. And truth is, they would typically make it, and typically score as a result.

                                Of course not every QB and team is a good bet on 4th down. But if a team has confidence and talent, and pending the clock and position on the field, it is not a bad idea to at least think it over.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X