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Pat Shurmur was awful today

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  • Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post
    I think we have had talented rosters that haven't performed as well as expected.
    I think the biggest issue with this statement is the word talented. We have a handful of talented players. The issues we seem to have appear to go all the way to the top. That is Elway. When a boss cannot help themselves and meddles it puts their subordinates at a disadvantage. That is in large part because they need to do what the boss says and if they don't they'll get fired.

    As an example- look no further than the Cardinals and VJ. He is not well liked. In fact I may have even made a few comments about him here before I started seeing the trends. VJ has put forth needs and a scheme in Arizona and it is working. In large part because they got the right players. Fangio in every other organization has assembled one heck of a defense. Yet all of a sudden after years of refinement he can't....it doesn't add up.

    When Shurmur was brought in the OL was built mainly to execute a Kyle Shanahan style. Now Shurmurs scheme is a square peg in a round hole. The line (except Minerz) doesn't fit Shurmurs style. We either build to fit our identity or we will fail
    ..again.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Locutus View Post
      What!? TB is the master of short passes. He’s Brian Greise 2.0. & defenses are playing him that way. It’s why he’s struggling. Teams know he’s not a threat going deep. It’s why Schumer is calling long pass attempts, if defenses don’t respect our passing game they’ll just flood the short & intermediate area’s making it difficult for TB to complete a pass.
      No, it's Shurmur's offense that is designed to do this. He's done the same thing at other teams, with the same complaints. Any of this sound familiar:

      Quarterback Eli Manning was 16-of-20 passing in the first half on Sunday night. For 97 yards! That’s six yards per completion, with a good chunk of the yardage coming from his receivers doing work after catches.

      Manning was averaging minus-0.2 yards per yards per completion at one point before the final drive of the first half, according to ESPN Stats & Information research. Yes, the Giants were throwing on average behind the line of scrimmage on passes that Manning completed. A checkdown to Barkley, swing pass or screen was way more the norm than the exception.

      It has been a problem early this season. The Giants threw short of the first-down marker on 6 of 7 plays on third-and-5 or longer in the second half of their Week 1 loss to the Jacksonville Jaguars. They threw short of the marker on all seven of their third downs in the first half on Sunday.

      When described as an "inordinate" number of throws short of the first-down sticks, coach Pat Shurmur disagreed.

      "First of all, I don’t think that’s correct, but go ahead," he said during a conference call on Monday.

      The follow-up question asked why so many short of the marker. Was it by design, circumstance, quarterback decisions?

      "Obviously, the plays are designed to get the first down, and there’s times when you’re playing against man coverage where you get catch-and-run scenarios, and then there’s other times when you have layered passes where you have a downfield throw and then kind of a shorter throw that requires a run to get the first," Shurmur said. "Depending on how all that plays out, really doesn’t matter as long as you get the first. Then if you didn’t get it, you didn’t get it."

      Well, the Giants converted 1-of-7 third downs via the pass in the first half on Sunday night. That came when Odell Beckham Jr. shook a defender and turned it into an eight-yard gain on third-and-4 on the opening drive.

      It’s not just third downs that are alarming. Manning had just two of his 20 first-half passes travel more than 10 yards in the air at Dallas.

      “You obviously want to get the ball down the field,” Shurmur said immediately afterward. “We took our shots, like we did in the first game. They played back, and we couldn’t get the ball down the field. And we got pressure, and those didn’t work out the way we wanted....”

      Manning averaged 3.2 air yards per completion against the Cowboys. He’s averaging 4.34 yards this season, which ranks 27th of the 32 qualified passers. Only Nick Foles, Blaine Gabbert, Andrew Luck and Sam Bradford throw the ball shorter. It leaves all the Giants' explosive weaponry -- Beckham, Evan Engram and Sterling Shepard -- going to waste.

      The Giants didn’t reach the end zone until there was 1 minute, 27 seconds left in the fourth quarter against the Cowboys. They have scored two touchdowns on 20 possessions this season. That’s not nearly good enough -- and it's worse than last year, when they finished 31st in scoring.
      Eli Manning, Giants mastering checkdown; it's getting them nowhere

      https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-g...g-them-nowhere

      Sam Bradford is on pace to set an NFL record for completion percentage, but he’s not exactly being touted for the Pro Bowl.

      The Vikings quarterback has completed 71.3 percent of his passes this season, better than the record of 71.2 set by New Orleans’ Drew Brees in 2011. That percentage, though, hasn’t been translating into wins.

      Minnesota (6-5) has lost five of its past six. Since Pat Shurmur took over as interim offensive coordinator Nov. 2 and began to call quicker and shorter passes, Bradford has completed a staggering 77.9 percent in four games. Yet the Vikings lost three of them.

      After completing 31 of 37 for just 224 yards in a 16-13 loss at Detroit on Thursday, Bradford said the Vikings must “find a way to create some explosive plays.’’ Bradford, who averaged a season-low 7.2 yards per completion in the game, said it’s “hard when you’re only picking up five, six, seven (yards) at a time.’’

      If Vikings coach Mike Zimmer agrees with what Bradford said, it wasn’t exactly a ringing endorsement he gave Friday.

      “I would agree that we need to score more,’’ said Zimmer, whose Vikings are 26th of 32 NFL teams with an average of 19.8 points per game.

      An inability to convert on third down played a key role in Minnesota not scoring much Thursday. The Vikings, excluding two first downs they got on penalties, were just 2 of 10.

      On those 10 tries, nine times Minnesota sought to get a first down by passing. Seven times Bradford threw short of the sticks and didn’t get a first down.

      Only once did he throw beyond the sticks, a 10-yard reception by Cordarrelle Patterson on third-and-7 in the third quarter. On Bradford’s final pass of the day, he threw short of the first-down marker on third-and-7 at the Minnesota 28 and the ball was picked off by Darius Slay at the 33. His 13-yard return led to 40-yard field goal by Matt Prater for the win as time expired....

      It’s been a delicate balance for the Vikings on offense. Shurmur went to the short passing game to help protect Bradford behind an injury-riddled offensive line and to make up for a shaky running game.
      Vikings QB Sam Bradford completing plenty of passes but not downfield

      https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/2...not-downfield/

      One of the biggest differences for the Giants in 2020 will be the fundamental change in coaching philosophy. Under the last two head coaches, McAdoo and Shurmur, the Giants’ offensive coordinators were far less involved on Sundays. Both Shurmur and McAdoo called plays for the Giants, quite unsuccessfully. Both offensive schemes were criticized for being predictable and inefficient.

      Perhaps the most detrimental aspect of having the head coaches call plays was their lack of situational awareness. Quite often, both coaches would forget to call timeouts or call them at unfavorable moments. McAdoo and Shurmur had poor clock management skills that many attribute to the two coaches being too wrapped up in playcalling.
      New York Giants: Jason Garrett A Major Upgrade At Offensive Coordinator In 2020

      https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-yo...nator-in-2020/

      During McAdoo’s overall tenure, the team averaged just 17.8 points-per-game.

      Thus, the organization brought in the offensive-minded Shurmur to help fix those football-related issues, something he didn’t accomplish.

      In the last two seasons, the Giants have averaged just 22.2 points-per-game with 347.3 total yards-per-game. This past season, they were 23rd in total yards-per-game (338.5) and 18th in points-per-game (21.3). Both categories saw a decrease from the previous year’s totals.

      Shurmur also took over a team (and offensive play-calling duties) with a struggling offensive line. In McAdoo’s final season, the line allowed 34 sacks (2.1 per game) and 70 quarterback hits (4.4 per game).

      Under Shurmur, the offensive line became even worse. In 2018, the group allowed 47 sacks (2.9 per game) and 97 quarterback hits (6.1 per game). Additionally, in 2019, they allowed 43 sacks (2.7 per game) and 119 quarterback hits (7.4 per game and 30th in the league).

      The 2018 line also had a different starting center, right guard, and right tackle from the 2019 group. Regardless, Shurmur and his staff couldn’t coach up that group to protect the quarterback in the majority of circumstances.

      A trend in this league has become hiring an offensive-minded head coach that has a creative approach to his gameplan. Just look at individuals like Sean McVay, Matt Nagy, Matt LaFleur, Kliff Kingsbury, and Adam Gase, to name a few. These are all guys who were just hired in the last few seasons.

      Yes, Shurmur possesses an offensive-minded approach, but it’s nowhere near creative. If you watched Giants games this year (which I understand was difficult), you know what their drives looked like. Countless upon countless offensive possessions were almost identical: A run on first down, an incomplete pass on second, followed by a 3rd-and-long.

      As a result, New York was 19th in the league with a third-down efficiency rate of 37%. That’s essentially what happens when a great number of drives end up like that. Not only did it make the offense’s job even tougher, but it put a whole lot more pressure on rookie quarterback Daniel Jones. Those long, do-or-die third downs are the exact opposite of what you want for your 22-year-old first-year quarterback.
      The New York Giants’ harsh, yet justified firing of Pat Shurmur

      https://elitesportsny.com/2020/01/04...but-necessary/

      Shurmur has been billed as an offensive guru who has helped get the best out of multiple quarterbacks, but that isn’t necessarily true. His first offensive coordinator job in the NFL came during the 2009 season with the St. Louis Rams. That offense ranked 32nd in DVOA as the team went 1-15. That led to the No. 1 overall pick, quarterback Sam Bradford, and an 8-8 record that next season, but still that offense only improved to 30th in DVOA. That record jump was aided more by a defensive jump from 31st in DVOA to 19th in the second year under head coach Steve Spagnuolo.

      Overall, Shurmur-led offenses haven’t been all that impressive. In his nine seasons as an offensive coordinator or head coach, Shurmur has only been in the top-10 of offensive DVOA twice....

      Though Childress was hired, Shurmer remained the play caller and the Cleveland offense went from 25th in DVOA during 2011 to 27th in 2012.

      Shurmur was fired after the 2012 season and the reason given was new owner Jimmy Haslam wanted to bring in his own staff, but Shurmur’s performance as a head coach also warranted the firing. He struggled with game management, fourth-down decisions, and challenges — little things that can give a team and advantage and things he hasn’t had to do since as a coordinator.

      In a 2012 year-end wrap up of coaches, Bill Barnwell, then of Grantland, awarded Shurmer with the “Most Questionable Challenge” — a challenge of a 6-yard pass on a first down in the fourth quarter of a Week 8 game — and “Worst Coach of 2012....”

      If Shurmur had developed his young talent into successful players, you would excuse his play-calling blunders. Instead, Shurmur failed to develop either Colt McCoy or Brandon Weeden into anything resembling an NFL-caliber starter, ran an injured Trent Richardson into the line for no gain for most of the season, and left the Cleveland organization with a lot of young players who have failed to reach anything resembling their potential.”
      Pat Shurmur’s past offenses leave a lot to be desired
      How good of an offensive coordinator has he really been?

      https://www.bigblueview.com/2018/1/1...ired-ny-giants
      Last edited by CasualFan; 10-23-2021, 11:46 PM.

      Comment


      • Shurmur’s offense offends me.

        Looking forward to 2022 and a new, shiny coaching staff. Here’s hoping for an innovative offensive minded HC and OC.
        sigpic

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        • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post

          No, it's Shurmur's offense that is designed to do this. He's done the same thing at other teams, with the same complaints. Any of this sound familiar:



          Eli Manning, Giants mastering checkdown; it's getting them nowhere

          https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-g...g-them-nowhere



          Vikings QB Sam Bradford completing plenty of passes but not downfield

          https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/2...not-downfield/


          New York Giants: Jason Garrett A Major Upgrade At Offensive Coordinator In 2020

          https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-yo...nator-in-2020/



          The New York Giants’ harsh, yet justified firing of Pat Shurmur

          https://elitesportsny.com/2020/01/04...but-necessary/



          Pat Shurmur’s past offenses leave a lot to be desired
          How good of an offensive coordinator has he really been?

          https://www.bigblueview.com/2018/1/1...ired-ny-giants

          Thus the reason why our Offense last year was Anemic No Hurry Up what so ever just like this year so Lethargic and Gross to watch. I wanted Pat fired Last Year because of this same exact play calling it has not changed nor will it until he is Fired.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post

            No, it's Shurmur's offense that is designed to do this. He's done the same thing at other teams, with the same complaints. Any of this sound familiar:



            Eli Manning, Giants mastering checkdown; it's getting them nowhere

            https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-g...g-them-nowhere



            Vikings QB Sam Bradford completing plenty of passes but not downfield

            https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/2...not-downfield/


            New York Giants: Jason Garrett A Major Upgrade At Offensive Coordinator In 2020

            https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-yo...nator-in-2020/



            The New York Giants’ harsh, yet justified firing of Pat Shurmur

            https://elitesportsny.com/2020/01/04...but-necessary/



            Pat Shurmur’s past offenses leave a lot to be desired
            How good of an offensive coordinator has he really been?

            https://www.bigblueview.com/2018/1/1...ired-ny-giants
            Thanks Casual Fan for posting this. As fans, we all could see it and we’ve all have hated his horrible, lackluster, predictable play calling.

            What’s even more head scratching is why does this man continue to get hired. Aren’t teams, especially ours, doing their due diligence? Don’t they see what’s happening?

            He needs to go immediately. Our coaching staff are a huge part of the downward spiral. The players also bare some responsibility as well but coaching is playing a major role.

            The area that has been most difficult to watch is the collapse of our defense. That’s been very disturbing and frustrating to watch.

            Adopted Bronco: DeMarcus Ware

            Comment


            • PS has been mediocre his whole career. Biggest mistake Fangio and elway made was firing the OC after 1 year bc Fangio didn’t like the young kid. What has PS done in the 23 games he’s had to not suffer the same fate? His game plan is as if he didn’t do any film study.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post

                No, it's Shurmur's offense that is designed to do this. He's done the same thing at other teams, with the same complaints. Any of this sound familiar:



                Eli Manning, Giants mastering checkdown; it's getting them nowhere

                https://www.espn.com/blog/new-york-g...g-them-nowhere



                Vikings QB Sam Bradford completing plenty of passes but not downfield

                https://www.twincities.com/2016/11/2...not-downfield/


                New York Giants: Jason Garrett A Major Upgrade At Offensive Coordinator In 2020

                https://empiresportsmedia.com/new-yo...nator-in-2020/



                The New York Giants’ harsh, yet justified firing of Pat Shurmur

                https://elitesportsny.com/2020/01/04...but-necessary/



                Pat Shurmur’s past offenses leave a lot to be desired
                How good of an offensive coordinator has he really been?

                https://www.bigblueview.com/2018/1/1...ired-ny-giants
                Actually what this tells me is Shurmur has more tools in his tool box than I thought. He just apparently does not know how to use them.
                Let's Ride!

                Comment


                • Went to the Rams game last Sunday. Definitely planning on going to the Broncos game at LA in Jan. It is a nice stadium.

                  It is also brilliant how the Rams use the short passing game to not only be effective but to keep the pass rush honest.

                  It seems Shurmur has been intent on doing mostly drop back passing to medium/deep routes since he has been in Denver which makes it easy on opposing defense pass rush. They did not even really have to worry about some of this stuff until recently I think Shurmur started to use screens some.

                  A good OC would have run screens and misdirection plays early so that when some of the crazy good pass rush defenses looked at the game film they had it in their brain during the week of preparation. When the Raiders/Ravens/Steelers looked at the game film their pass rushers just started watering at the mouth knowing they would be not worrying about run plays most of the game or misdirection all game.
                  Let's Ride!

                  Comment


                  • Pat Shurmur was awful today. Defense holds the opponent to 10 and it takes until the last second to get the W. A better play caller could have scored much more. Ugh.
                    Eternal Broncos Optimist

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Megalodon30 View Post
                      Pat Shurmur was awful today. Defense holds the opponent to 10 and it takes until the last second to get the W. A better play caller could have scored much more. Ugh.
                      Harbaugh would have called the game the same way....

                      This team need someone dynamic calling the plays and not conservative. Someone willing to change the gameplan at the half if its looking like the offense isn't moving or producing.
                      sigpic
                      Adopted Broncos:
                      EmmanuelSanders

                      Comment


                      • It's easy to point the finger at Shurmur, Elway, or Fangio when the losses come down to 3 simple reasons:

                        1. The opposing teams have a better offense.
                        2. The opposing teams have a better defense.
                        3. The opposing teams have better special teams.

                        And it's a combination of lack of talent, lack of coaching ability, and lack of decent ownership.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by gtown53 View Post
                          It's easy to point the finger at Shurmur, Elway, or Fangio when the losses come down to 3 simple reasons:

                          1. The opposing teams have a better offense.
                          2. The opposing teams have a better defense.
                          3. The opposing teams have better special teams.

                          And it's a combination of lack of talent, lack of coaching ability, and lack of decent ownership.
                          So only 3 things (plus adding some talent, good coaching and a new owner) and we’re right back in this thing! Oh yeah baby!

                          So you’re telling me there’s a chance…
                          To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

                          Comment


                          • Shurmur is without a doubt one of the worst coaches in Broncos history. Watching this team is painful even in a win because I have to come to grips that I have to watch the same trash next weekend.

                            None of these incompetent coaches will be back next year. Rip the bandaid off.
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JW7 View Post
                              Shurmur is without a doubt one of the worst coaches in Broncos history. Watching this team is painful even in a win because I have to come to grips that I have to watch the same trash next weekend.

                              None of these incompetent coaches will be back next year. Rip the bandaid off.
                              Agreed. Barely escaping with wins against the dregs of the league is just good enough to put us in a position to draft the top cornerback talent again. Or maybe we could go for a punter. I hear starting punters are hard to find. Ugh.

                              Blow it up. Re roll. Start again. Hand out the pink slips. Be an aggressive seller prior to the trade deadline. Put some ammo in our tool belt to allow us to rebuild. Give this fan base something to hope for again.
                              To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Humberg View Post

                                Agreed. Barely escaping with wins against the dregs of the league is just good enough to put us in a position to draft the top cornerback talent again. Or maybe we could go for a punter. I hear starting punters are hard to find. Ugh.

                                Blow it up. Re roll. Start again. Hand out the pink slips. Be an aggressive seller prior to the trade deadline. Put some ammo in our tool belt to allow us to rebuild. Give this fan base something to hope for again.
                                Don’t let McManus’ missed FG cloud your assessment. If he could be more consistent a lot of other issues would disappear. LOL

                                Comment

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