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Thank goodness we gave up on Lock after 1.5 seasons

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  • #61
    Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post

    "I know for a solid undeniable fact Drew Lock cannot play in the NFL after 18 games"

    And then

    "Id we throw all of these variables together I FEEL like we could do some damage"


    I didn’t say he couldn’t play in the league. I said he is who he is. Read his scouting reports and everything we saw with his game action is there. Does he have an arm? Yes, but he is also wildly in accurate and panics when things go sideways. That’s in his report. But the same goes for Teddy as well. He doesn’t turn the ball over much, but is also makes safe high accuracy short to med throws. These guys are who they are.

    And my second point was that knowing they are who they are, the coaches should be doing a better job of coaching to strengths And calling the games to keep them out of trouble. So all the GBU of Lock or Teddy, is amplified by abysmal coaching and game prep. Fix that and there will be changes.
    #swapping

    Comment


    • #62
      Drew Lock had 1550 pass attempts in college, that’s an insanely high number, more than Justin Fields, Zach Wilson, and Trey Lance combined.

      Lock wasn’t quite the project everybody claims he was, he played a TON in college. Reading the scouting reports, they were pretty much spot on.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by flosstein View Post

        I didn’t say he couldn’t play in the league. I said he is who he is. Read his scouting reports and everything we saw with his game action is there. Does he have an arm? Yes, but he is also wildly in accurate and panics when things go sideways. That’s in his report. But the same goes for Teddy as well. He doesn’t turn the ball over much, but is also makes safe high accuracy short to med throws. These guys are who they are.

        And my second point was that knowing they are who they are, the coaches should be doing a better job of coaching to strengths And calling the games to keep them out of trouble. So all the GBU of Lock or Teddy, is amplified by abysmal coaching and game prep. Fix that and there will be changes.
        I can't disagree on your last. But I absolutely disagree on Drew and Teddy. We know who teddy is because he's been that same player since college. Every conversation at every stop ends with "...yeah, but" when it's comes to TB.

        I think your second point is important because I truly believe if you put Drew Lock in situations to help a young QB along you'd be amazed with the results. Your point about LA I like too. Put him in a play action bootleg offense with hi/lo concepts and he probably throws 25+TDs, especially considering how well Javonte is playing. Not only that, but it takes pressure off the offensive line, opens up your TEs in the open field. You eat a ton of clock so it takes pressure off the defense. It's a win win and I truly believe that.

        But what offense can you design around teddy? He doesn't really excel at anything except getting the ball out of his hand by the second read. He's not really reading defenses either, he's looking to where his eyes need to be for the play but his eyes aren't seeing the information. He's not safe with the ball and he panics just as bad as Drew Lock does.

        Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
        sigpic

        Hooray, beer!

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Broncos-R-Great View Post
          Drew Lock had 1550 pass attempts in college, that’s an insanely high number, more than Justin Fields, Zach Wilson, and Trey Lance combined.

          Lock wasn’t quite the project everybody claims he was, he played a TON in college. Reading the scouting reports, they were pretty much spot on.
          The issue was that he played in a relatively simple offensive system. Many of his throws were based off of a one read. Only in his last season did the offense start to resemble a more pro offense. He also has horrible mechanics with his feet, his throwing motion and his tendency to drift. He suffered from big arm syndrome like Jay Cutler and trusted his arm too much throwing into coverage. His accuracy and pocket presence diminished the more pressure he experienced in the pocket. He didn’t receive a lot of development from Missouri and had to play catch up at the senior bowl which he did relatively well.

          So he was by all accounts a pretty raw talent coming out. Further, his deficits were all ones that were likely to be exaggerated in the NFL. Far cry from some of these players that play their entire college career in a pro offense, have very honed mechanics etc.

          However, I would also agree that we have not seen the kind of progress that should make anyone believe he’s a starting quarterback. His trajectory has been disappointing. And I would agree that 18 games and the time he’s been here is more than enough time to show a lot more than he has.

          The history of the NFL is filled with stories like him. Players with talent, a lot of potential who for one reason or another never live up to it. With each passing day this story becomes more and more likely as opposed to the possibility that he’s suddenly going to find the franchise quarterback path.
          To permit irresponsible authority is to sell disaster. (Heinlein)...like Broncos season tickets!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Humberg View Post
            With each passing day this story becomes more and more likely as opposed to the possibility that he’s suddenly going to find the franchise quarterback path.
            Can't disagree there. If he gets in another game for Denver and shows nothing again, he's done. not only as a Bronco, but probably as a QB. He's shown no ability to be ready and prepared to be a backup. Just not worth the risk.

            HOWEVA

            Denver is going nowhere. There's nothing to lose and everything possibly to gain by playing the players you drafted. Elevate PS guys and get some people in the locker room that didn't win their Superbowl in frickin SEPTEMBER.
            sigpic

            Hooray, beer!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Gsam View Post

              First off, the panthers are not lacking weapons. DJ Moore is one of the best young WR's in the game and Robby Anderson is a solid #2. Yeah CMC got hurt last year, but lets not pretend like he doesn't have anything to work with there.

              You wanna dig deep into Teddy B Stats? Lets do it. I am gonna start this off and say Teddy is an awesome dude, but a sub par QB. Lets review:

              2020:
              24th in TDs produced
              17th in yards producted
              9th in INT's thrown.

              Very mediocre. top 1/3 of ints thrown, bottom 1/3rd of TD's produced.

              2019
              Only started 9 games so bad year for comparison. During that time, he had a whopping 9 TD passes in 9 games. 2 INT (which is good) He was averaging 153 passing yards a game.... On track to throw for 2460 yards which would have been 30th in total yardage. Right next to Stafford who threw that much in 8 games before getting hurt.

              2018
              Not even worth looking at. Threw 23 passes all year

              2017
              Nothing to report Didn't play.

              2016
              did not play

              2015
              26th in TD's produced (bottom 1/3)
              22nd in INT's thrown (good)
              22nd in yards produced. (bottom 1/3)

              2014

              23rd in TD's produced. (bottom 1/3)
              13th in INT's (just outside top 1/3 of the worst)
              23rd in yards produced (bottom 1/3)

              so I ask YOU, where is he "straight"

              If I told you that you could have a QB who is a lifetime bottom 1/3 TD producer, and lifetime 1/3 in yards produced, and middle of the road on INT's with a low ADOT would you say thats good? We signed up for the epitome of a game manager. 0 upside, He has never even averaged 1 TD a game through his ENTIRE career.

              I also never said arm talent wins game, I said "YOU CANT TEACH ARM TALENT" but you can work on decision making.

              So again, don't bring it on stats when you are not informed.
              Those low TD numbers are primarily because he played on offenses that were designed to go through a generational running talent (Adrian Peterson, Alvin Kamara, Christian McCaffrey) rather than the quarterback. The Oline in such offenses is designed to run-block, not pass-block. The running back gets the ball on first and second downs, and then the QB's job is to throw in obvious passing situations on third down if the RB didn't move the chains. None of that is good for a QB's stat line.

              Lock's problem vs. Teddy is primarily qualitative. Lock is a see-it, throw-it QB that depends on the famous arm talent we keep hearing about to get the football to the receiver after the receiver is visibly open. Which in the NFL doesn't last long if it even happens on the play at all. If no receiver gets visibly open, Lock holds onto the football for too long and we know what happens next. With Teddy, his superior understanding of the offense's passing routes and the defense's reactions thereto allows him to throw to receivers before they are visibly open, but he knows they will get open by the time the ball arrives given how the play is evolving. That's why he can get the ball out faster. (Peyton Manning was a genius at this in spite of not having a laser rocket arm.) See the first play in this film breakdown for a good example -- Bridgewater throws the pass before Hinton is open, knowing that he will be open by the time the ball gets there:

              Film Room: Teddy Bridgewater's Week 2 Performance at Jaguars Refutes 'Check-Down' Criticism

              https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/film/...uation-jaguars

              See also this on Lock's lack of anticipatory throws:

              Does Drew Lock Struggle to Throw With Anticipation?

              https://arrowheadguys.com/does-drew-...-anticipation/

              What people have been saying on this board elsewhere about Shurmur's offense being stale and too predictable will defeat even a quarterback with good anticipation like Bridgewater, however, because then the defense can also predict which receivers are going to get open and when, not just the quarterback throwing to them. (That happened to Manning too in Super Bowl XLVIII -- the Seahawks defense knew exactly what Denver was going to do.)

              Lock's arm talent is in some ways a liability because it has stunted his developing anticipation skills. Receivers don't get wide open in the NFL enough for his college mentality of gunning it to the visibly open receiver to work. He'll end up gunning it into tight windows that close too quickly. And so the highlight reel wow plays you'll get from Lock showing off his arm strength are fool's gold.
              Last edited by CasualFan; 10-18-2021, 10:03 PM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by CasualFan View Post

                Those low TD numbers are primarily because he played on offenses that were designed to go through a generational running talent (Adrian Peterson, Alvin Kamara, Christian McCaffrey) rather than the quarterback. The Oline in such offenses is designed to run-block, not pass-block. The running back gets the ball on first and second downs, and then the QB's job is to throw in obvious passing situations on third down if the RB didn't move the chains. None of that is good for a QB's stat line.

                Lock's problem vs. Teddy is primarily qualitative. Lock is a see-it, throw-it QB that depends on the famous arm talent we keep hearing about to get the football to the receiver after the receiver is visibly open. Which in the NFL doesn't last long if it even happens on the play at all. If no receiver gets visibly open, Lock holds onto the football for too long and we know what happens next. With Teddy, his superior understanding of the offense's passing routes and the defense's reactions thereto allows him to throw to receivers before they are visibly open, but he knows they will get open by the time the ball arrives given how the play is evolving. That's why he can get the ball out faster. (Peyton Manning was a genius at this in spite of not having a laser rocket arm.) See the first play in this film breakdown for a good example -- Bridgewater throws the pass before Hinton is open, knowing that he will be open by the time the ball gets there:

                Film Room: Teddy Bridgewater's Week 2 Performance at Jaguars Refutes 'Check-Down' Criticism

                https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/film/...uation-jaguars

                See also this on Lock's lack of anticipatory throws:

                Does Drew Lock Struggle to Throw With Anticipation?

                https://arrowheadguys.com/does-drew-...-anticipation/

                What people have been saying on this board elsewhere about Shurmur's offense being stale and too predictable will defeat even a quarterback with good anticipation like Bridgewater, however, because then the defense can also predict which receivers are going to get open and when, not just the quarterback throwing to them. (That happened to Manning too in Super Bowl XLVIII -- the Seahawks defense knew exactly what Denver was going to do.)

                Lock's arm talent is in some ways a liability because it has stunted his developing anticipation skills. Receivers don't get wide open in the NFL enough for his college mentality of gunning it to the visibly open receiver to work. He'll end up gunning it into tight windows that close too quickly. And so the highlight reel wow plays you'll get from Lock showing off his arm strength are fool's gold.

                I get what you are saying, but I disagree entirely. Lets look at QBs who's offense runs through the RB:

                Cousins who has Dalvin Cook: 4265 passing yards, 35 TDs 13 INTs in 2020. Very good numbers. TDs are a touch high and nearing that 1 per game range, but really good overall.
                Tannehill who has Derek Henry - 3817 passing yards 33 TDs 7 INTs in 2020. Outstanding numbers.
                Mayfield who has Chubb / Hunt - 3563 Passing Yards 26 TD's 8 INTs in 2020. Solid numbers. Not quite 2 TDs a game but almost there.
                Bridgewatet who didn't have CMC in 2020 stealing touches 3734 Passing Yards 15 TDs 11 INTs. pretty bad. TDs are not even 1 per game. His ball protection was sub par also. The threw the 9th most TDs of any QB last year.

                The above all have running backs who are the focal point of the offense. They are not struggling to produce offensively. Why does Teddy get a pass? I didn't even bother posting Bree's numbers from NO from what he did with Kamara cause that would just be cruel. Teddy doesn't have an excuse. He plays the game ultra safe and as a result he cannot score enough to beat opponents reliably. Its been his MO his entire career. As i said in my previous posts, He hasn't averaged over 1 td a game his entire career. That is HORRIBLE.

                As for your critique of Lock. I agree. Dude is a work in progress. I just don't understand the mind set of a coach who signs up to take a career underachiever and make him the starting QB over trying to fix the mental game of a dude who has all the physical attributes. Teddy has peaked. We will never know what lock could have been.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Humberg View Post

                  The issue was that he played in a relatively simple offensive system. Many of his throws were based off of a one read. Only in his last season did the offense start to resemble a more pro offense. He also has horrible mechanics with his feet, his throwing motion and his tendency to drift. He suffered from big arm syndrome like Jay Cutler and trusted his arm too much throwing into coverage. His accuracy and pocket presence diminished the more pressure he experienced in the pocket. He didn’t receive a lot of development from Missouri and had to play catch up at the senior bowl which he did relatively well.

                  So he was by all accounts a pretty raw talent coming out. Further, his deficits were all ones that were likely to be exaggerated in the NFL. Far cry from some of these players that play their entire college career in a pro offense, have very honed mechanics etc.

                  However, I would also agree that we have not seen the kind of progress that should make anyone believe he’s a starting quarterback. His trajectory has been disappointing. And I would agree that 18 games and the time he’s been here is more than enough time to show a lot more than he has.

                  The history of the NFL is filled with stories like him. Players with talent, a lot of potential who for one reason or another never live up to it. With each passing day this story becomes more and more likely as opposed to the possibility that he’s suddenly going to find the franchise quarterback path.
                  The issue isn’t with reads, it’s his accuracy, going all the way back to his freshman year. With the amount he’s played going back to college, if he hasn’t fixed it by now, I highly doubt it’ll ever happen.

                  Whatever, they might as well start him, we all know Teddy ain’t it, especially not a hurt Teddy. I’m more frustrated with the FO, not even trying to get a real QB, with so many guys available this year, huge failure.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CasualFan View Post

                    Lock's problem vs. Teddy is primarily qualitative. Lock is a see-it, throw-it QB that depends on the famous arm talent we keep hearing about to get the football to the receiver after the receiver is visibly open. Which in the NFL doesn't last long if it even happens on the play at all. If no receiver gets visibly open, Lock holds onto the football for too long and we know what happens next. With Teddy, his superior understanding of the offense's passing routes and the defense's reactions thereto allows him to throw to receivers before they are visibly open, but he knows they will get open by the time the ball arrives given how the play is evolving. That's why he can get the ball out faster. (Peyton Manning was a genius at this in spite of not having a laser rocket arm.) See the first play in this film breakdown for a good example -- Bridgewater throws the pass before Hinton is open, knowing that he will be open by the time the ball gets there:
                    ​​​​​​Well if you've got it all figured out why hasn't Teddy himself and all these coaches he played for?

                    ​​​​​This guy? 18 games? Screw that guy, leagues figured him out.


                    ​​​​​OH but my boy teddy? 8 seasons, man still an up and comer. His superior understanding of the offenses passing routes? Second to none. Gets the ball out faster than even Peyton Manning. And then, he anticipates throws! The first QB to ever do it! It's really too bad the league are just a bunch of morons and he didn't realize his elite potential, ironically, until he put on a Denver ball cap. Weird huh?

                    You win the all around Gold for mental gymnastics with that one. Everyone else is second place.


                    Last edited by CoryWinget81; 10-19-2021, 06:13 AM.
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                    Hooray, beer!

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Gsam View Post


                      I get what you are saying, but I disagree entirely. Lets look at QBs who's offense runs through the RB:

                      Cousins who has Dalvin Cook: 4265 passing yards, 35 TDs 13 INTs in 2020. Very good numbers. TDs are a touch high and nearing that 1 per game range, but really good overall.
                      Tannehill who has Derek Henry - 3817 passing yards 33 TDs 7 INTs in 2020. Outstanding numbers.
                      Mayfield who has Chubb / Hunt - 3563 Passing Yards 26 TD's 8 INTs in 2020. Solid numbers. Not quite 2 TDs a game but almost there.
                      Bridgewatet who didn't have CMC in 2020 stealing touches 3734 Passing Yards 15 TDs 11 INTs. pretty bad. TDs are not even 1 per game. His ball protection was sub par also. The threw the 9th most TDs of any QB last year.

                      The above all have running backs who are the focal point of the offense. They are not struggling to produce offensively. Why does Teddy get a pass? I didn't even bother posting Bree's numbers from NO from what he did with Kamara cause that would just be cruel. Teddy doesn't have an excuse. He plays the game ultra safe and as a result he cannot score enough to beat opponents reliably. Its been his MO his entire career. As i said in my previous posts, He hasn't averaged over 1 td a game his entire career. That is HORRIBLE.

                      As for your critique of Lock. I agree. Dude is a work in progress. I just don't understand the mind set of a coach who signs up to take a career underachiever and make him the starting QB over trying to fix the mental game of a dude who has all the physical attributes. Teddy has peaked. We will never know what lock could have been.
                      That's why the raiders started celebrating as soon as they went up by a score. They knew Denver wasn't going to come back from any kind of deficit early
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                      Hooray, beer!

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post

                        That's why the raiders started celebrating as soon as they went up by a score. They knew Denver wasn't going to come back from any kind of deficit early
                        Truth. It's such a joke that these guys get paid millions of dollars to get make boneheaded decisions.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I personally don’t really think of it as a Lock vs Bridgewater debate anymore.

                          I look at it like Broncos vs modern strategy. It’s not really about Lock on a granular level. It’s more about having an innovative and creative culture paired with a young QB with potential upside.

                          The Broncos had a chance to pair a young, promising QB with a young fresh thinking OC. They instead opted to go with the grumpy old man OC with a mediocre vet OB.

                          I realize that the Lock/Scangs experiment could have failed miserably. It’s not about the short term results. It’s about the organization’s mindset and philosophy. There’s a decent chance sticking with that pairing could have been at least comparable to what we watched for the past 2 years, maybe even better with the added potential of a young, modern duo developing together.

                          Nope. Our geezer HC wanted to go with a geezer OC and ultimately a mediocre vet QB.

                          Now we’re in the exact same spot we were back in 2017. Coming off a failed vet QB situation with a failed coaching staff.

                          I’m really hoping we see an overall change in philosophy. I’d love nothing more than to see this franchise move into this century.
                          sigpic

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post

                            I wasn’t completely sold on Lock coming out of Missouri. Praised him when he showed improvement and was critical of him when he regressed. He definitely struggled in relief a couple of weeks back.

                            It’s clear Teddy isn’t up to the task. Lock may have one more shot if Teddy falls apart vs Browns, and that is a good possibility. Lock might not have a chance to stay in Denver but maybe he can begin to set himself up for another team.
                            Of course he would struggle. Backups don't get no practice during the week. Also, the line was terrible.
                            Go Hard or Go Home

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                            • #74
                              I don't see the current make up of this team/organization as a part of the future. Vic won't be here, Shurmur won't be here, and neither QB's we have will be here.

                              This season is all about arranging the chairs on the Titanic, as far as I'm concerned.

                              But in the end, what do I know, I'm just a fan. But that's my opinion, fwiw. Glad I enjoy football, no matter what!
                              Geaux Tigers

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by BR0NCOFANATIC View Post

                                Of course he would struggle. Backups don't get no practice during the week. Also, the line was terrible.
                                Good quarterbacks can come into a game and perform. It’s not as if he didn’t have practice. Lock wasn’t prepared and it showed - that’s on him.

                                Too many excuses for Lock.

                                In 2019 Matt Moore was signed by the Chiefs from the street coaching high school football. He came in for relief against the Broncos after a week on the team and smoked Denver.

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