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  • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

    You're right, it's a problem that exists way bigger than those two, and has been around for longer than they have. But neither of them are the solution. And there's no harm in saying that neither is the solution. The solution is the Broncos drafting and nurturing a young QB, and them hiring a coaching staff that can develop that young QB and will shift their offense to fit the strengths of that QB while he's learning, rather than trying to immediately shift that QB into their system.

    As an example, I'm a big North Carolina fan, so I'm going to be a big believer in Sam Howell (I know he's polarizing and I know plenty of people don't like him and don't want him) I believe he has the chance to be a star in the NFL, but he needs a coaching staff who will develop him. So if that team wants him to start in year one that means being a heavy run team, y=using lots of play action, and using RPOs. And it means allowing him to dial up plenty of deep passes off of play action, he's a very good deep ball QB, use that.

    If a coaching staff is willing to do that (New Orleans and Pittsburgh are two examples of staffs that would) he's going to really develop. But if the team that brings him in wants him to turn into just a pure pocket passer from day 1, it's probably going to end poorly.
    I would add Brennan Armstrong into a similar process as Sam Howell. I’m admittedly a bit biased since my son is part of the program with Armstrong.

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    • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

      Better....those numbers are not statistically different, and contain many variables. Just sayin that's a very weak argument.

      Lock was benched for reasons.
      There certainly were variables, like the Broncos playing a tougher schedule last year being one.

      Here's the thing, Bridgewater has the second best completion percentage on third down in the NFL. But he has the second worst percentage in the NFL of those completions turning into first downs. So 31 of his 60 completions on third did nothing but inflate his completion percentage and QB rating. But they in no way helped the Broncos score more points, and in no way helped the Broncos win football games.

      If you give Drew Lock 31 more meaningless completions on third down his completion percentage last year jumps 7% to 64.3%. His QB rating improves. His interceptions likely go down because he took checkdowns rather than being aggressive. Would you be okay with Drew Lock having remained QB if none of the team stats improved but his individual numbers were better?

      Drew Lock was benched for reasons, and Teddy Bridgewater deserves to be benched for several of the exact same reasons: not scoring enough points, not converting enough on third downs, not converting enough in the red zone. At the end of the day the NFL is about scoring points and winning games, and if you're not doing those things, despite how good your individual stats may look on their own without a deeper look, then you should not be playing.

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      • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post

        I would add Brennan Armstrong into a similar process as Sam Howell. I’m admittedly a bit biased since my son is part of the program with Armstrong.
        Very cool! I was very impressed with him during the UNC game, he couldn't miss. Although at the time I was pretty angry watching the UNC defense in that game.

        I am interested to see how his draft stock changes, he's been phenomenal this year, hopefully he'll see his stock rise. And hopefully he'll return for his injury this week. I'd really like to see him and Pickett go back and forth.

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        • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

          Very cool! I was very impressed with him during the UNC game, he couldn't miss. Although at the time I was pretty angry watching the UNC defense in that game.

          I am interested to see how his draft stock changes, he's been phenomenal this year, hopefully he'll see his stock rise. And hopefully he'll return for his injury this week. I'd really like to see him and Pickett go back and forth.
          Similar frustrations with UVA’s defense. The offense can score a ton but they rarely get stops on defense. If Armstrong wouldn’t have been injured they would have probably given Notre Dame a much harder time - heck they held ND to 28 points. I think his stock was rising but a big chance on the stage with ND was missed in prime time with his injury. If he can’t come back for the last two games he’ll probably need to stay in college next year - might have anyway. Would be nice to see him and Pickett go back and forth but he still might be sore with those ribs.

          I like Howell as well.

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          • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post

            Similar frustrations with UVA’s defense. The offense can score a ton but they rarely get stops on defense. If Armstrong wouldn’t have been injured they would have probably given Notre Dame a much harder time - heck they held ND to 28 points. I think his stock was rising but a big chance on the stage with ND was missed in prime time with his injury. If he can’t come back for the last two games he’ll probably need to stay in college next year - might have anyway. Would be nice to see him and Pickett go back and forth but he still might be sore with those ribs.

            I like Howell as well.
            Yeah that UNC-Virigina game was a track meet. Two teams that looked like they had no interest in playing defense. Like every defensive call was "let them score so our offense can get the ball back."

            If I were Armstrong I'd definitely take all of the time allowed before deciding whether to enter the draft or not. Talk to everyone possible, get the NFL to tell him his draft projection, and then talk to both the Virginia coaches and NFL coaches to see if he's got a chance to go a lot higher in 2023. If he can improve things a lot by going back for his senior season, do it.

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            • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

              Yeah that UNC-Virigina game was a track meet. Two teams that looked like they had no interest in playing defense. Like every defensive call was "let them score so our offense can get the ball back."

              If I were Armstrong I'd definitely take all of the time allowed before deciding whether to enter the draft or not. Talk to everyone possible, get the NFL to tell him his draft projection, and then talk to both the Virginia coaches and NFL coaches to see if he's got a chance to go a lot higher in 2023. If he can improve things a lot by going back for his senior season, do it.
              Yes that would be good for him to figure it out through a process. He’s a smart young man and he has a great family supporting him. If the injury sidelines him for the last two games and possible bowl game, he may need next year to continue building the resume.

              What are the early projections for Howell?

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              • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                Yes Lock is my choice when it comes to him and Bridgewater. Rypien is my choice when it comes to him and Bridgewater. Hinton playing QB or permanent wildcat are my choice when it comes to either them or Bridgewater.

                And yes I knew your argument before you made it, so I made my point ahead of that. Bridgewater has more weapons this year than Lock did last year. Lock turned over the ball more last year and the team was still better in the red zone and on third down, and scored more points per game.

                But at least we're not mathematically eliminated from the playoffs...
                Sarcasm......kinda takes away the value of interacting.

                Everything else is your opinion vs mine, and is it really worth the effort anymore? Thought I'd talk a little hockey with ya, but you haven't responded. That's quite alright. We might even agree, but not to be.




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                • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                  There certainly were variables, like the Broncos playing a tougher schedule last year being one.

                  Here's the thing, Bridgewater has the second best completion percentage on third down in the NFL. But he has the second worst percentage in the NFL of those completions turning into first downs. So 31 of his 60 completions on third did nothing but inflate his completion percentage and QB rating. But they in no way helped the Broncos score more points, and in no way helped the Broncos win football games.

                  If you give Drew Lock 31 more meaningless completions on third down his completion percentage last year jumps 7% to 64.3%. His QB rating improves. His interceptions likely go down because he took checkdowns rather than being aggressive. Would you be okay with Drew Lock having remained QB if none of the team stats improved but his individual numbers were better?

                  Drew Lock was benched for reasons, and Teddy Bridgewater deserves to be benched for several of the exact same reasons: not scoring enough points, not converting enough on third downs, not converting enough in the red zone. At the end of the day the NFL is about scoring points and winning games, and if you're not doing those things, despite how good your individual stats may look on their own without a deeper look, then you should not be playing.
                  Well, with all the bashing going on, is it not ok to show some numbers that might suggest TB is doing sort of ok.....or do we have to all dwell on his weaknesses? And for that matter, do we have to be so negative almost every day here? Is that the environment we want? A place where good members decide not to post? I am not suggesting we make up info, or wear the glasses or drink the juice, but at what point is enough enough? And for that matter, why is TB the starter? Who's to blame? Not us folks defending him from time to time. They (the decision-makers) are the bad guys then, whoever they all are, because TB is doing what he is asked to do...start.

                  You asked me why I defend him and I have been very clear:
                  1) I did not want him to be our starter coming in, but I like the guy, and how he has made the most of his career post serious injury.
                  2) I did want a Watson/Rodgers/Wilson. Just telling the truth. And no, for those who might misinterpret, I wanted Watson til that day we found out about the situation he was in. When everyone found out.
                  3) I am not impressed with Lock. Something last year made me less positive about him and his play.
                  4) Like some other members, I am tired of the negativity of some here....so I will do my best to add positives where I can. because as we say....it's getting old. We've heard it all, and no matter what TB does, it won't make a difference. There will be excuses and "yeah buts".

                  I've told this before....but 2015 was not a real positive fanbase, because of the QB situation. Some of us wanted Manning in at the end, and it certainly did not hurt us. But I am quite confident that, even though we won the SB that year, some folks here were not overly happy about it. Some were quiet or not even around. Why? Because they did not get the QB they wanted. Which if true, is kinda sad. We won the flippin SB! I may not be 100% right about it, but that's what I recall.
                  Last edited by CanDB; 11-17-2021, 08:44 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                    Sarcasm......kinda takes away the value of interacting.

                    Everything else is your opinion vs mine, and is it really worth the effort anymore? Thought I'd talk a little hockey with ya, but you haven't responded. That's quite alright. We might even agree, but not to be.



                    I'm on here once every week or two, this is the first time I've been on in consecutive days in months. I'll be honest, I didn't actually see your hockey post, I forgot that I had even posted that topic, until you mentioned it. Wasn't meant to be a slight, just a reality that my schedule doesn't allow me to interact on these boards much at all these days.

                    And no the sarcasm wasn't called for. It was my first of three posts, I came in hot, and as the posts went along it was better interaction on my part.

                    As for the negativity, yes I get tired of the negativity. One of several reasons why I haven't been on here much this year, because it's hard to come to a place that isn't that much fun. And I get it people get frustrated with the streak Denver has been on, I'm very frustrated with it, but it just feels at times like people (myself included) can be negative when no negativity is needed. So I do understand why you're trying to make posts towards the positive.

                    As for the Bridgewater debate (I have no idea how to quote multiple posts in this new format), I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt for so long. I kept my mouth shut, and wanted to let it play out, but the tackle "attempt" was the last straw for me. That's the moment I went to a place where I just couldn't defend it anymore, and I don't want him to be Denver's QB anymore. I can accept being bad (we've had a run of those QBs in Denver) and I can accept that things happen and Denver loses games, but just a complete lack of even trying is what disappointed me and pushed me past the edge. We've seen kickers and punters and yes QBs make halfhearted dive attempts before, and sure a lot of them were just for show, so I'm not sure why he couldn't have even done that. If it's cause he thought he was going to get lit up by the Eagles defender who lit up Gordon instead, I may not like that, but at least I'd understand the honesty.

                    Lock struggled last year, no question about it. There's probably little chance that he becomes the answer in Denver, but it's hard to see him written off after 18 games. Young players learn and mature all the time. They get better. Josh Allen and Ryan Tannehill are two examples of QBs who were pretty bad, but grew and became decent QBs. I know it's probably not a great chance, but in what seems like a lost season, I'd rather see him get one more chance to show it either way, rather than just going with Bridgewater, where we know exactly what he is already.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Butler By'Note View Post

                      There certainly were variables, like the Broncos playing a tougher schedule last year being one.

                      Here's the thing, Bridgewater has the second best completion percentage on third down in the NFL. But he has the second worst percentage in the NFL of those completions turning into first downs. So 31 of his 60 completions on third did nothing but inflate his completion percentage and QB rating. But they in no way helped the Broncos score more points, and in no way helped the Broncos win football games.

                      If you give Drew Lock 31 more meaningless completions on third down his completion percentage last year jumps 7% to 64.3%. His QB rating improves. His interceptions likely go down because he took checkdowns rather than being aggressive. Would you be okay with Drew Lock having remained QB if none of the team stats improved but his individual numbers were better?

                      Drew Lock was benched for reasons, and Teddy Bridgewater deserves to be benched for several of the exact same reasons: not scoring enough points, not converting enough on third downs, not converting enough in the red zone. At the end of the day the NFL is about scoring points and winning games, and if you're not doing those things, despite how good your individual stats may look on their own without a deeper look, then you should not be playing.
                      Funny seing that argument from your side, as we have had many lengthy discussions about exactly that point. It is about scoring points and winning games, but you are missing the factor that sinks so many including Lock - and those are the negative plays. An interception averages out to about -4 points swing season to season, granted there are some INTs that are better than punts and some that are much worse.

                      The fact that supports TB is that we don't have many negative plays, and we have a fair amount of good to great plays. NFL has him as a middle of the pack QB which is higher than any Broncos QB has finished for 5 seasons. Teddy is infinately better as a mentor than Drew would be but we are really discussing whether we think that Drew could be a top 20 QB as Teddy currently is or not.
                      I don't see that Drew will ever be a great QB, and I don't think he will have a winning record at the end of his career, so as irritated as I am at Teddy's effort I don't think that Drew is a better play.

                      In effect Teddy is on par with ex. Tom Brady and other elite QBs in the red zone - except it really comes apart inside the 10 yard line where we stink and that is probably more O-Line, RB and playcalling as Teddy does not make many mistakes.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post

                        Funny seing that argument from your side, as we have had many lengthy discussions about exactly that point. It is about scoring points and winning games, but you are missing the factor that sinks so many including Lock - and those are the negative plays. An interception averages out to about -4 points swing season to season, granted there are some INTs that are better than punts and some that are much worse.

                        The fact that supports TB is that we don't have many negative plays, and we have a fair amount of good to great plays. NFL has him as a middle of the pack QB which is higher than any Broncos QB has finished for 5 seasons. Teddy is infinately better as a mentor than Drew would be but we are really discussing whether we think that Drew could be a top 20 QB as Teddy currently is or not.
                        I don't see that Drew will ever be a great QB, and I don't think he will have a winning record at the end of his career, so as irritated as I am at Teddy's effort I don't think that Drew is a better play.

                        In effect Teddy is on par with ex. Tom Brady and other elite QBs in the red zone - except it really comes apart inside the 10 yard line where we stink and that is probably more O-Line, RB and playcalling as Teddy does not make many mistakes.
                        LOL. Teddy is tied for 3rd most yards lost on sacks and has the 2nd most sacks.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post

                          LOL. Teddy is tied for 3rd most yards lost on sacks and has the 2nd most sacks.
                          So....?
                          Sacks don't have a very significant impact on outcomes compared to ex. interceptions.

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                          • Your thread title should be: "Mr. Teddy REFUSES to Tackle".
                            Utah Bronco Freak

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                            • Originally posted by jazzbodog View Post
                              Your thread title should be: "Mr. Teddy REFUSES to Tackle".
                              He's chicken, too gun shy with his boo-boo knee.

                              Comment


                              • https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-inde...eason-rankings

                                Per this NFL Network analyst, Gregg Rosenthal, Bridgewater is ranked 16th among NFL QBs. Not terrible. Middle of the pack. Not what we want long term, but 16th sounds as good as I expected going into the season. There is even a tackle joke in the assessment (for those who enjoy a little humour).

                                It shows stats as well, but here's the summary:

                                I don't include tackling in my grading, so Teddy's performance against the Eagles was typical of his season. He made plenty of excellent on-point throws (second in CPOE!), often against pressure, but Bridgewater's red zone struggles in Carolina have followed him to Denver. The Broncos have such a small margin for error because of their injuries that they should feel fortunate to get to their bye at 5-5, hoping for better health down the stretch.

                                If told at the beginning of the season that TB would be 16th at this point, I would not have been surprised. I definitely did not see him in the top 10 or so.

                                We got what we got. And the entire team has to find ways to win more games.

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