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Teddy - He can't tackle

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  • Originally posted by BroncoFanDK View Post

    Lets get just a relatively resonable evaluation of Teddy!
    For the past 5 seasons we have lived with QBs that could not deliver wins even when defense and running game played well. We have lived with atrocious QB play under VJ and Fangio, except some ray of light during Keenums year where we had a few good weeks, a couple of good weeks with Siemian, a couple of good weeks with Lock in 2019 but aside from that Teddy is the only QB that has been able to not loose the games and to develop the receivers....
    Teddy might be a Brian Griese kind of QB, but that is "elite" compared to anything we have seen from the Broncos for a while, and it is pretty unusual during Elway's later tenure to experience winning oiver good teams.
    People keep talking about how angry that they are that we don't have Justin Fields throwing INTs and loosing games, and though no one really wanted Mac Jones the 20:20 hindsight experts are here now.
    We are in the best situation we have been in since 2016 so the hate for Teddy is bizarre. No one missed Brian Griese when he was replaced by Jake Plummer, and few will miss Teddy if someone better comes along, but right now he deserves our support and hope for slaying dragons!
    Bridgewater’s INTs were literally the reason for losing to the Steelers, Raiders and Browns. His lack of effort to tackle Slay allowed a TD which led to another loss. Nobody was showing highlights of Teddy last Sunday - they showed PS2.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by LordTrychon View Post

      My goal for the Broncos from year to year. If we're in playoff mode (e.g. made playoffs previous year or years) then I want playoff wins and as many as possible. If we missed the playoffs the previous year, I want to get back to the playoffs. If we had a losing season, I want at least a winning season, but would be even happier with playoffs.

      Yes, Teddy's had one playoff appearance, and it was a loss. It's worth noting he was a second year player that year and they got 11 wins. That's not too horrible.

      61 games is less than 4 years starting. It's probably enough to say we've seen enough of Teddy to have a pretty good read on his ability as a QB, but I would argue it's a bit too little to assume that since he's 0-1 in the playoffs, he's incapable of winning a playoff game.

      I don't think anyone is saying that Teddy is great because of his completion percentage. In fact, I don't think anyone is even arguing that Teddy is great.

      Those of us who are defending Teddy to an extent are arguing against the idea that he's horrible.

      Teddy is a middle of the pack NFL QB. Not great, not horrible. He's not going to drag the team on his back like Peyton Manning, but there's few QBs that actually do that.

      Teddy's completion %, combined with every other aspect of his play, and the play of those around him, has led this team to 6 wins. There's 11 teams that have done better thus far this year. So... yes. It does translate to football wins.

      Does that mean he's perfect? No.

      Does that mean he's done it alone? No.

      Is anyone saying these things about him? No.

      What some of us are saying, is that the Teddy is horrible narrative is just... misleading at best.

      14 QBs will make the playoffs this year.

      Generally speaking, I would say the top 5-10 QBs in the league at any time are in the really good to great range.

      The QBs in the 10-20 range are in the average to pretty good range.

      Teddy has a few stats that put him in the top 10, but for the most part he's in the 10-20 range. He's an average QB.

      I'm not asking anyone to like him, or be ok with him being our QB even. You can hate him and wish he'd never come here... that's fine.

      I just get tired of hearing he's horrible. He's not horrible. He's decent, and sometimes pretty good. His worst stat right now is his sacks, and despite the fact that he's having a pretty decent season, it seems likely that he'd be having an even better one if our OL was in better shape. Not to mention the other injuries to our team, given that we lead the league in Salary cap on IR.

      Heck, now that I think about it, we started winning again when we got Jeudy back. Imagine if we hadn't lost him and Hamler... maybe we get a few more wins and are in a wildcard slot right now.

      Anyway... to summarize... I don't think anyone is arguing Teddy is a top-10 QB. It would just be nice to be able to have real conversations about our team without it always being about how horrible Teddy is, when he is actually pretty decent, and a part of the reason we're in the playoff hunt. I think most fans absolutely want to find a guy who is a top-10 guy, long term.

      That's not going to happen in the coming weeks. But you know what could? We could make the playoffs for the first time in a minute. We're actually playing meaningful games in December, and some of us are happy for it. In part, that's despite Teddy's play. In part, it's also because of Teddy's play.

      I think its really hard to point to a single game and think we won because of teddy. His best stats this season has mostly been in garbage times in our losses. He hasnt put up any big plays in clutch situations, I think hes something crazy like 0-10 in his attempts at game winning drives. Hes at his best when we are playing dominate defense and running the ball well, which is pretty much just asking everything to go right in order to win with him.

      I know benjamin albright said something along the lines of teddy is near the best in the league at completion percentage on 3rd down but near the bottom of the league in converting 3rd downs. Its why I cant help but roll my eyes when people talk about his completion percentage. We are still only scoring 20 points a game or less, we are still punting a lot. We just arent puting our defense in horrible situations with the ints.

      Drew lock is probably more likely to "take a game over" and win it. But he loses a lot of games because of dumb mistakes. Bridgewater can play safe and allow the rest of the team to win the game. Pretty much the definition of "game manager". I think a lot of the hate for him is just the fact that its denver. Bridgewater is just another random qb in that dumb carousel since manning. Denver fans want a long term answer, and just when we thought we had it drew decided to suck and we go right back to the flacco/siemian/keenum situation.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Starbroncs View Post


        I think its really hard to point to a single game and think we won because of teddy. His best stats this season has mostly been in garbage times in our losses. He hasnt put up any big plays in clutch situations, I think hes something crazy like 0-10 in his attempts at game winning drives. Hes at his best when we are playing dominate defense and running the ball well, which is pretty much just asking everything to go right in order to win with him.

        I know benjamin albright said something along the lines of teddy is near the best in the league at completion percentage on 3rd down but near the bottom of the league in converting 3rd downs. Its why I cant help but roll my eyes when people talk about his completion percentage. We are still only scoring 20 points a game or less, we are still punting a lot. We just arent puting our defense in horrible situations with the ints.

        Drew lock is probably more likely to "take a game over" and win it. But he loses a lot of games because of dumb mistakes. Bridgewater can play safe and allow the rest of the team to win the game. Pretty much the definition of "game manager". I think a lot of the hate for him is just the fact that its denver. Bridgewater is just another random qb in that dumb carousel since manning. Denver fans want a long term answer, and just when we thought we had it drew decided to suck and we go right back to the flacco/siemian/keenum situation.
        Teddy was outplayed by Keenum of all quarterbacks.

        The media played highlights of Surtain after the Chargers game, not Teddy. If not for Surtain’s INTs, missed Chargers FG and 150 yards rushing by Gordon/Williams, Teddy did very little - 129 yards passing - credit for his TD.

        His lack of effort and the pathetic excuses after the Eagles game was worse than anything we’ve seen of all those journeyman quarterbacks. But, he’s all we have this season. If everything is perfect including dominant defense we have a chance of winning three more games.
        Last edited by Fantaztic7; 12-03-2021, 04:33 AM.

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        • Teddy's not paid to tackle. I doubt there are even training drills for QB tackling. That said, the post game rationalization was pathetic.

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          • Originally posted by BiscuitBronco View Post
            Teddy's not paid to tackle. I doubt there are even training drills for QB tackling. That said, the post game rationalization was pathetic.
            Quarterbacks are paid to do what it takes win games. Leadership is critical for quarterbacks and not just what they say off the field - it’s what they do in critical situations. That was a critical moment in the game and he should have made an effort.

            Receivers aren’t “paid” to defend passes and tackle when quarterbacks make bad throws - in those situations they make plays for their team. They don’t selfishly wimp out like Teddy. Players are paid to win and that means making plays including a quarterback tackling.

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            • I'm kinda fascinated by the amount of times I've seen Teddy's play from this last game used as an example.

              'Look at his numbers in the Chargers game! Did you watch?'

              Um... did you?

              He missed a large portion of the game because he was injured, and he came back out anyway and managed to help the team win in spite of being hobbled.

              'He can't overcome INTs'

              Well, he overcame one this last week with those horrible numbers, it's just that he wasn't the one who threw the INT.

              And yes, Teddy stiff arming Bosa and getting the TD has absolutely been getting played in highlights. As has his rushing TD.

              Do we really need to make up arguments like that?

              As for comparing Teddy to Flacco/Keenum/Siemian.... Joe Flacco went 2-6. Keenum went 6-10. Siemian at least went 8-6 one season.

              No, Teddy is not the sole reason we're winning, and again, nobody is saying that.

              Call him a game manager if you want. His style of play and level of play are a part of our success, whether you want to admit it or not. The low INT numbers have helped our offense have the 2nd highest average drive length in the league. Yes, our scoring, sacks, third down percentages all could definitely be improved. But during the Flacco/Keenum/Siemian and even Lock years, it was a common refrain that we could do so well if we just had average QB play and played ball control offense.

              This is exactly what that looks like. It's not exciting on offense very often, but it's the most effective we've been in several years.

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              • I forgot where I heard about it or read it, but Vic Fangio replayed the non-tackle by Teddy and called out Teddy for his lack of effort on that play. Teddy himself has mentioned watching that play in meetings and being upset with himself. Since then Teddy dove for a touchdown and stiff-armed Joey Bosa before throwing a touchdown pass against the Chargers. He also came back from some sort of injury. Vic gave Teddy a game ball after that win.

                As much as I hated to see Teddy's no effort play, I am sort of optimistic that now he has an axe to grind. A chip on his shoulder. If Teddy can play angry, we just might have a sliver of hope for beating the Chiefs Sunday night.

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                • Here's a fun stat I just looked up -

                  I remember I pointed out that we're ranked 21st in scoring this year on offense, compared to 28th last year. Several people have since started pointing out that we're only scoring 0.5 more per game.

                  I checked, and scoring is down across the league this year. Avg across the league last year was 24.8. This year it's 23.0 So that's why there's a larger discrepancy in how we are performing relative to the rest of the league than there is between us and last year.

                  Grabbed the avg/game stats by team for last year and this year and looked at the swing from one year to the next.

                  On offense, we have the 12th best swing in pts/game. Only 13 teams had a positive swing, so we're at the low end of that, but there's 20 teams who are worse in this category.

                  On defense, 18 teams have improved their pts/game over last year. Denver has the best improvement, and it's not close. We went from 27.9 pts/gm to 17.8 pts/gm for a swing of 10.1 pts/gm. The next closest improvement is 7.3 by the Cowboys.

                  Does anyone think that the offense's style of play and consistency has no impact on the improvement of our defensive scoring?

                  Last year, we were 31st in the league on offense in average drive length. This year we're 2nd. Last year we were 30th in the league in starting drive position on Defense. This year we're second in the league.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by LordTrychon View Post
                    Here's a fun stat I just looked up -

                    I remember I pointed out that we're ranked 21st in scoring this year on offense, compared to 28th last year. Several people have since started pointing out that we're only scoring 0.5 more per game.

                    I checked, and scoring is down across the league this year. Avg across the league last year was 24.8. This year it's 23.0 So that's why there's a larger discrepancy in how we are performing relative to the rest of the league than there is between us and last year.

                    Grabbed the avg/game stats by team for last year and this year and looked at the swing from one year to the next.

                    On offense, we have the 12th best swing in pts/game. Only 13 teams had a positive swing, so we're at the low end of that, but there's 20 teams who are worse in this category.

                    On defense, 18 teams have improved their pts/game over last year. Denver has the best improvement, and it's not close. We went from 27.9 pts/gm to 17.8 pts/gm for a swing of 10.1 pts/gm. The next closest improvement is 7.3 by the Cowboys.

                    Does anyone think that the offense's style of play and consistency has no impact on the improvement of our defensive scoring?

                    Last year, we were 31st in the league on offense in average drive length. This year we're 2nd. Last year we were 30th in the league in starting drive position on Defense. This year we're second in the league.
                    Who's first in the league on offense in average drive length? just curious.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by justabroncosfan View Post

                      Who's first in the league on offense in average drive length? just curious.
                      I use https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ for most my stats.... the drive stats are on the team pages, and I don't think I've run across any page that makes seeing them for all teams easy, but let me look around again.

                      Comment


                      • Found it.

                        https://www.pro-football-reference.c...21/#all_drives

                        Green Bay leads the league in average drive length.

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                        • Originally posted by LordTrychon View Post
                          I'm kinda fascinated by the amount of times I've seen Teddy's play from this last game used as an example.

                          'Look at his numbers in the Chargers game! Did you watch?'

                          Um... did you?

                          He missed a large portion of the game because he was injured, and he came back out anyway and managed to help the team win in spite of being hobbled.

                          'He can't overcome INTs'

                          Well, he overcame one this last week with those horrible numbers, it's just that he wasn't the one who threw the INT.

                          And yes, Teddy stiff arming Bosa and getting the TD has absolutely been getting played in highlights. As has his rushing TD.

                          Do we really need to make up arguments like that?

                          As for comparing Teddy to Flacco/Keenum/Siemian.... Joe Flacco went 2-6. Keenum went 6-10. Siemian at least went 8-6 one season.

                          No, Teddy is not the sole reason we're winning, and again, nobody is saying that.

                          Call him a game manager if you want. His style of play and level of play are a part of our success, whether you want to admit it or not. The low INT numbers have helped our offense have the 2nd highest average drive length in the league. Yes, our scoring, sacks, third down percentages all could definitely be improved. But during the Flacco/Keenum/Siemian and even Lock years, it was a common refrain that we could do so well if we just had average QB play and played ball control offense.

                          This is exactly what that looks like. It's not exciting on offense very often, but it's the most effective we've been in several years.
                          Joe flacco is the franchise passing leader for the ravens, has had quite a bit of playoff success, won a superbowl, and has proven to be quite clutch throughout his career (pretty washed up now though). I could understand being excited for flacco when he came to denver much moreso than teddy, he has actually proven to come up big in big moments. Keenum is probably about even with teddy, maybe a little worse although he definitely played way better with way less on offense when they went head to head.

                          Trevor was likely the only QB the broncos have had start since manning that some bronco fans started to wonder if we should sign him. I recall his big 4 td game against the cowboys many on here claiming we should hurry up and lock him up, luckily we didnt.

                          I would say this team is vastly superior than all of those teams 2016-2020. Im pretty sure if flacco/keenum/trevor was here they would be capable of at least matching the level of play that teddy has produced this year. In my eyes hes not really an upgrade at all over those guys, at least we didnt give up much for him though and the panthers are paying to not have him on their team.

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                          • Originally posted by Fantaztic7 View Post

                            Bridgewater’s INTs were literally the reason for losing to the Steelers, Raiders and Browns. His lack of effort to tackle Slay allowed a TD which led to another loss. Nobody was showing highlights of Teddy last Sunday - they showed PS2.
                            I know this is your go to response. But I think I could take it apart with facts. Without even thinking, or googling, I remember the deep in the chart D'Ernest Johnson for The Cleveland Browns rushing for 146 yards and a TD, plus 22 receiving yards against our D, when EVERYONE knew he was going to carry the load minus Chubb and Hunt. IMO, that game looked in jeopardy on their first drive, led by (oh wait) Case Keenum. But that's Teddy's fault of course. He clearly did not get his tackling reps in, to play D that day. Cmon Teddy!!

                            So Teddy was 23 of 33 for 187, and 2 TDs/1 pick. Not terrible, but of course you will rely on that 1 pick. But where was our run game? Williams had 20 yards, and Gordon had 18. Pretty bad!

                            I can go thru each game you mention, and maybe I will, but anyone who watched The Cleveland game, minus Mayfield, Chubb and Hunt, knew we were in for some difficulty right after the kickoff. Our D could not stop them whenever we needed a play. It was a team loss.
                            Last edited by CanDB; 12-03-2021, 07:55 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                              I know this is your go to response. But I think I could take it apart with facts. Without even thinking, or googling, I remember the deep in the chart D'Ernest Johnson for The Cleveland Browns rushing for 146 yards and a TD, plus 22 receiving yards against our D, when EVERYONE knew he was going to carry the load minus Chubb and Hunt. IMO, that game looked in jeopardy on their first drive, led by (oh wait) Case Keenum. But that's Teddy's fault of course. He clearly did not get his tackling reps in, to play D that day. Cmon Teddy!!

                              So Teddy was 23 of 33 for 187, and 2 TDs/1 pick. Not terrible, but of course you will rely on that 1 pick. But where was our run game? Williams had 20 yards, and Gordon had 18. Pretty bad!

                              I can go thru each game you mention, and maybe I will, but anyone who watched The Cleveland game, minus Mayfield, Chubb and Hunt, knew we were in for some difficulty right after the kickoff. Our D could not stop them whenever we needed a play. It was a team loss.
                              Broncos were shutout until 7:12 left in the 3rd quarter that game. Defense kinda sucked but browns still only put up 17 points. Javonte had 20 yards on just 4 carries, 5 ypc.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Starbroncs View Post
                                Joe flacco is the franchise passing leader for the ravens, has had quite a bit of playoff success, won a superbowl, and has proven to be quite clutch throughout his career (pretty washed up now though). I could understand being excited for flacco when he came to denver much moreso than teddy, he has actually proven to come up big in big moments. Keenum is probably about even with teddy, maybe a little worse although he definitely played way better with way less on offense when they went head to head.

                                Trevor was likely the only QB the broncos have had start since manning that some bronco fans started to wonder if we should sign him. I recall his big 4 td game against the cowboys many on here claiming we should hurry up and lock him up, luckily we didnt.

                                I would say this team is vastly superior than all of those teams 2016-2020. Im pretty sure if flacco/keenum/trevor was here they would be capable of at least matching the level of play that teddy has produced this year. In my eyes hes not really an upgrade at all over those guys, at least we didnt give up much for him though and the panthers are paying to not have him on their team.
                                Flacco was so far removed from being any good though... and lets look at who he had to top to be the franchise leader....

                                Kyle Boller.

                                That's really not as impressive as it sounds. He went 2-6 in 8 games, and threw 6 TDs to 5 Ints. Drew took the same lineup to a 4-1 record, with 7TDs and 3 Ints (same Int% though). Flacco was sacked 26 times to Lock's 5.

                                Keenum I was cautiously optimistic for, though I actually wanted Bridgewater that same year... though he probably wasn't far enough along in his recovery to be fair. He went 6-10, with 18TDs and 15 Ints.

                                Losing to Keenum the way we did was one of the lowpoints of this season, for sure. I'd love to defend it by pointing out that the Browns are a decent team these days, but they were so beat up, we should have handled them easily. That game was when my confidence level hit a low for the year. Still, I don't think head to head in a single game is a great way to compare the two.

                                Siemian... I'll be honest. I was actually on the Siemian hype train. I remember seeing him in the preseason as a rookie and being impressed by him. I thought he showed decent understanding and poise, and a rollout for a TD in particular I thought he looked impressive. Then when he started beating out guys he wasn't supposed to be able to in preseason, I continued to take notice. Again, his poise and the way he read the field gave me hope. I thought given some time, he could develop into at least an above average guy we could build a decent team around with strong running game and Defense, at least until we had a real upgrade.

                                Unfortunately, I honestly think that Siemian got a bit mentally broken, and maybe a bit physically broken by the beating he took. He started out 6-2/7-3 before sliding to 9-7. It really seemed like he was feeling/seeing ghosts out there, and he lost the poise he once had. Shame, but it happens.

                                I Honestly never had an issue with the approach we were *trying* to take with bringing in these guys. They tried to find someone who could hold down the fort while we continue to try to find a long term answer. Build the rest of the team up and find someone to keep the QB seat warm in the process. I don't believe that you have to tear down and start from scratch when you're in a rough patch. Keep trying to win while you rebuild.

                                Would these guys be able to be plugged in here and do just as well as Bridgewater this year? I don't really think so. Maybe a young Siemian.

                                Meanwhile, Teddy has gotten a bad reputation as a 'backup at best' QB... for no real reason. He was a backup briefly after a long recovery from a horrible injury... he went 5-0 as starter as a backup, and wasn't asked to do too much, and it worked for them. They tried to get him back from us this year to start for them, but we weren't done with him, because we're fighting for the playoffs.

                                Teddy has had one bad year as a starter, but because the fans here so disparately want a top level QB again, a lot haven't really given him a fair shake... because he 'feels' like exactly the same as these other guys to them, and they're sick of it. The fact that Flacco, Keenum, Lock, and Siemian failed here is not Teddy's fault though, and I'm not going to hold it against him.

                                We're 6-5 and have a shot to take the lead of the division in December, and I'll take it happily.

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