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  • #16
    Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

    Was he wrong? Outside of Mac Jones, who from this past draft is off the boards looking like a franchise guy? And would Mac Jones look how he looks with Shurmur and Fangio? Jones does have the man who will go down as one of the best 5 coaches in the game's history. And Jones is the only one people in sports media viewed as pro ready. I think Paton has to be smart enough to know who his coaches are. I know a few hear love them some Justin Fields and think he would have excelled in Denver. But with our bad OC and a history of being bad at developing QBs, it was safer to draft elsewhere.

    I think Paton is a guy who wants a pro ready QB that you can plug into an offense and know what you're gonna get for the most part. This is why I wouldn't be surprised if Denver trades for Matt Ryan in the off season and draft Carson Strong(Or Desmond Ridder/Pickett if Paton decides to trade up). I also wouldn't be surprised if a call is made to Seattle, as it's being rumored Wilson is considering a change of location.
    I dont think he was wrong, I love the pick. Mac Jones is playing well but the Patriots whole team is playing great right now so I'm impressed but not sure how much is Jones and how much is Bellichek and McDaniels putting him in a great position to win. Not sure the Broncos coaches would have had same success and our oline hasn't been been healthy.

    I like taking PS2 , Paton had him above Jones for a reason. From what I've heard if PS2 wasnt there we would have taken Parsons, who should win DROY.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

      Was he wrong? Outside of Mac Jones, who from this past draft is off the boards looking like a franchise guy? And would Mac Jones look how he looks with Shurmur and Fangio? Jones does have the man who will go down as one of the best 5 coaches in the game's history. And Jones is the only one people in sports media viewed as pro ready. I think Paton has to be smart enough to know who his coaches are. I know a few here love them some Justin Fields and think he would have excelled in Denver. But with our bad OC and a history of being bad at developing QBs, it was safer to draft elsewhere.

      I think Paton is a guy who wants a pro ready QB that you can plug into an offense and know what you're gonna get for the most part. This is why I wouldn't be surprised if Denver trades for Matt Ryan in the off season and draft Carson Strong(Or Desmond Ridder/Pickett if Paton decides to trade up). I also wouldn't be surprised if a call is made to Seattle, as it's being rumored Wilson is considering a change of location.
      I find it funny that some of those here who are already writing off the quarterbacks that were drafted back in April were the same ones preaching patience with Lock. You can't have it both ways.

      And as far as the argument that we should have passed on taking a quarterback because of our coaches not being good....that's an absurd logic. Pass on a potential franchise quarterback because you don't think your coaches can coach him up and develop him? Do any of you see the flaw in that approach? I do. If that's the reason, then just fire the coaches and bring in ones you think can get the job done.

      Look, Fields is in Chicago. I've moved on. But that doesn't change the fact that I think he will eventually be a very good to great quarterback. And I believe he is way better than any of the quarterbacks coming out next year.

      As for Jones, he's playing well but to me he's pretty much reached his ceiling. I was never high on him because I felt he already peaked.

      As for what we do at quarterback, a few things:

      Bridgewater has to go. He's done nothing but hold this offense back. The fact that he's better than Lock means very little.

      No to Ryan. He's old, washed up and is useless unless you hire him as a quarterback coach. He's done as a player. If we're going down the road of vet journeymen quarterbacks, I'd go with Foles. He'll be 33 and he has had success when on a good team. We have talent on offense to make that happen. Let me be clear, this is not what I really want but if it's the road we're taking, again, he'd be my top choice.

      No to Rodgers. It'll cost too much and I don't know how much longer he wants to play and I don't trust his commitment to football. He's a guy who'll bolt the first chance he gets if he's unhappy.

      Watson is too toxic to trade for.

      Wilson is who I'd be interested in but who knows if he wants to come to Denver. Indications are he wants to go somewhere on the east coast. I think I heard New York to the Giants because his wife is from there. Not 100% sure though.

      As for the draft, I'd take a quarterback....but no earlier than the 3rd round. These quarterbacks aren't that good, especially compared to Lawrence, Fields and Jones. So if some of you think last year's class is mostly unimpressive, this year's class is worse.

      I'd rather use our top picks to address OT, pass rush and reinforce our linebacker position.

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      • #18
        I will say, for the most part, I like what Paton has done. I like the roster, overall. I was really happy when we drafted Baron Browning and Jonathan Cooper.....as a Buckeye fan, I liked what they bring to the defense.

        But, ultimately it comes down to whether he can solve the quarterback problem. Same with the head coach.

        I'm going to give him a chance....he's clearly earned it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by sra84 View Post

          I find it funny that some of those here who are already writing off the quarterbacks that were drafted back in April were the same ones preaching patience with Lock. You can't have it both ways.

          And as far as the argument that we should have passed on taking a quarterback because of our coaches not being good....that's an absurd logic. Pass on a potential franchise quarterback because you don't think your coaches can coach him up and develop him? Do any of you see the flaw in that approach? I do. If that's the reason, then just fire the coaches and bring in ones you think can get the job done.
          .
          I'ma cut you off right here. I'm not writing anybody off. By no means am I saying nobody from the previous draft will turn into a solid NFL. I'm saying right now on november 30th, who looks like they can lead a franchise and is, and if that player would look like that in Denver. Not every QB sucks except Mac Jones and only Jones will have a good career.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by CTM View Post
            Baron Browning is also quietly looking like an awesome steal in the third round.

            One thing I'll say I think we've been able to handle injuries better this season. I have nothing to back this up but I think there is a big part of being a GM that Paton seems to be really good at. Finding the guys off the street during the season to fill holes. Most of us probably focus on the Draft and Free Agency and rightly so it is a large part of building a team. But it certainly doesn't stop there. While Elway showed some really good instincts some of the time, when he missed on a pick/signing or guys got hurt it seemed like our season was just done. I don't think Elway had as good a feel on the in season adjustments and signings teams need to make. Nothing against Elway, I thought his talent evaluation for the most part was really good, but he just wasn't as practiced in keeping the revolving door of talent going through the season as guys wear down and get hurt. Paton as an Assistant in Minnesota was probably on top of that responsibility and has more experience doing that well and I think that more than anything is why we're sitting here with a chance to take the division lead with a win over the Chiefs.
            I am pretty pumped about Baron as well. Yea he missed one memorable 4th down play but he made a lot of plays in coverage and in pass rush getting pressure. It early but he looks to be the pass defender at ILB we been missing for years.

            Something I did not realize was Sterns started the game against the Chargers playing 100% of the defensive snaps. While I do not remember any specific plays the great play of the defense overall speaks that he played his role well.

            PS2
            Williams (3 down RB)
            The Belly (looked savage in the run game)
            Baron
            Sterns
            Cooper

            That is a pretty good draft class.
            Lets Ride!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by sra84 View Post

              I find it funny that some of those here who are already writing off the quarterbacks that were drafted back in April were the same ones preaching patience with Lock. You can't have it both ways.

              And as far as the argument that we should have passed on taking a quarterback because of our coaches not being good....that's an absurd logic. Pass on a potential franchise quarterback because you don't think your coaches can coach him up and develop him? Do any of you see the flaw in that approach? I do. If that's the reason, then just fire the coaches and bring in ones you think can get the job done.

              Look, Fields is in Chicago. I've moved on. But that doesn't change the fact that I think he will eventually be a very good to great quarterback. And I believe he is way better than any of the quarterbacks coming out next year.

              As for Jones, he's playing well but to me he's pretty much reached his ceiling. I was never high on him because I felt he already peaked.

              As for what we do at quarterback, a few things:

              Bridgewater has to go. He's done nothing but hold this offense back. The fact that he's better than Lock means very little.

              No to Ryan. He's old, washed up and is useless unless you hire him as a quarterback coach. He's done as a player. If we're going down the road of vet journeymen quarterbacks, I'd go with Foles. He'll be 33 and he has had success when on a good team. We have talent on offense to make that happen. Let me be clear, this is not what I really want but if it's the road we're taking, again, he'd be my top choice.

              No to Rodgers. It'll cost too much and I don't know how much longer he wants to play and I don't trust his commitment to football. He's a guy who'll bolt the first chance he gets if he's unhappy.

              Watson is too toxic to trade for.

              Wilson is who I'd be interested in but who knows if he wants to come to Denver. Indications are he wants to go somewhere on the east coast. I think I heard New York to the Giants because his wife is from there. Not 100% sure though.

              As for the draft, I'd take a quarterback....but no earlier than the 3rd round. These quarterbacks aren't that good, especially compared to Lawrence, Fields and Jones. So if some of you think last year's class is mostly unimpressive, this year's class is worse.

              I'd rather use our top picks to address OT, pass rush and reinforce our linebacker position.
              First bolded. Not to offend but you sound like some of those "experts" last year who said exactly your words. Pretty good but no upside. In The NFL that's money, given where he is already as a rookie. I don't care who his coach is, he still has to deliver on the field. A lot of teams like his current "upside", and we know he will get a little better at minimum.

              Second, and this includes all the other bolded....if QB is so important, which it is, outside of Wilson (who you admit will probably not choose us if available), or Foles (who is reminiscent of a number of recent QBs we've had), are you saying you would leave it for a 3rd rounder at best?? To be honest, your QB plan for next year leaves me a little worried. Did I miss something?
              Last edited by CanDB; 11-30-2021, 10:39 AM.

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              • #22
                Still not a fan of the Von trade but if that pick can contribute like this current class then I might change my tune.

                This draft class has been excellent so far. Meinerz is probably the most impressive piece that Paton pulled the trigger on. Taking a guy from that small of a school in the 3rd is a big gamble. I know Meinerz played well at the senior bowl but still. His strength is just incredible, I can only imagine what he was doing to his opponents back in college. Meinerz isn’t Nelson, but I’ll be damned if he doesn’t pop on the tape with his sheer strength like Nelson does. Once he gets his technique down, he’s going to be an elite player. Muti on the other side hasn’t looked bad either, he’s definitely getting some push in the run game. Cushenberry isn’t getting the same push in the one on ones but he’s doing his job well and in space in the second level he does a really good job. Those 3 are going to be a great interior for a long time. Hell Quinn Bailey didn’t seem that bad, I didn’t notice him very much, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Risner can’t continue to start at LG, if they’re dead set on getting him in, he needs to be at RT. Massie has been ok, but Risner can probably give us ok at that position as well and he can still develop.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

                  I'ma cut you off right here. I'm not writing anybody off. By no means am I saying nobody from the previous draft will turn into a solid NFL. I'm saying right now on november 30th, who looks like they can lead a franchise and is, and if that player would look like that in Denver. Not every QB sucks except Mac Jones and only Jones will have a good career.
                  There are some who constantly bring up Fields and trash him and those who would have preferred to have drafted him. Those are the ones I'm referring to. In fact Fields is mostly brought up in threads by those saying he stinks.

                  I know you and others aren't writing him yet. It's the select few who feel the needs to bring him up just to trash him.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                    First bolded. Not to offend but you sound like some of those "experts" last year who said exactly your words. Pretty good but no upside. In The NFL that's money, given where he is already as a rookie. I don't care who his coach is, he still has to deliver on the field. A lot of teams like his current "upside", and we know he will get a little better at minimum.

                    Second, and this includes all the other bolded....if QB is so important, which it is, outside of Wilson (who you admit will probably not choose us if available), or Foles (who is reminiscent of a number of recent QBs we've had), are you saying you would leave a it for a 3rd rounder at best?? To be honest, your QB plan for next year leaves me a little worried. Did I miss something?
                    Jones offers little to no mobility. And in today's NFL, it's vital for your quarterback to be able to run when necessary. I've also never seen him have to carry an offense when needed. He had the luxury of having the best team in college football around him. And so far in New England, he hasn't had to either. I think he's a good quarterback but not an elite game changing quarterback. Maybe he will be but I don't think he is. And that's always been my opinion....I don't care what "experts" say. Would I have been ok taking him? I'd rather him than Bridgewater or Lock.

                    As for your second comment, I said Foles IF we go down that road again because he'd be the best of what would be available. My preference is to do what we can to get Wilson. Or if things clear up with Watson, then I'd try to get him.

                    And I said I would take a quarterback in the third round or later because I don't think any of the quarterbacks coming out next year are worth spending a first or second round pick on. To me, if you're drafting a quarterback in the first round, or even the second round, he needs to have a high floor as well as a high ceiling. And that's because we'd be passing on real legitimate talent and playmakers at other positions we desperately need. None of these quarterbacks coming out next year have that. And frankly I don't think any of them have a high ceiling, with the exception of Willis.

                    Willis probably has the best physical traits but he's very raw and watching him play this year, he's more bust than boom. We should have seen more from him this year to consider him in the first or second round.

                    Yeah, it's not a great position to be in....but that's a result of the decisions made by this organization.

                    This is a bad year to be needing a quarterback.
                    Last edited by sra84; 11-30-2021, 10:04 AM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post
                      Still not a fan of the Von trade but if that pick can contribute like this current class then I might change my tune.

                      This draft class has been excellent so far. Meinerz is probably the most impressive piece that Paton pulled the trigger on. Taking a guy from that small of a school in the 3rd is a big gamble. I know Meinerz played well at the senior bowl but still. His strength is just incredible, I can only imagine what he was doing to his opponents back in college. Meinerz isn’t Nelson, but I’ll be damned if he doesn’t pop on the tape with his sheer strength like Nelson does. Once he gets his technique down, he’s going to be an elite player. Muti on the other side hasn’t looked bad either, he’s definitely getting some push in the run game. Cushenberry isn’t getting the same push in the one on ones but he’s doing his job well and in space in the second level he does a really good job. Those 3 are going to be a great interior for a long time. Hell Quinn Bailey didn’t seem that bad, I didn’t notice him very much, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Risner can’t continue to start at LG, if they’re dead set on getting him in, he needs to be at RT. Massie has been ok, but Risner can probably give us ok at that position as well and he can still develop.
                      Did you mean those picks?

                      The fact we got a 2nd and 3rd seems pretty fair bartering. And yes, if Paton and company can convert them into good players, or even as part of a package, and given how well the D is playing of late, I am pretty good with it thus far.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by sra84 View Post

                        Jones offers little to no mobility. And in today's NFL, it's vital for your quarterback to be able to run when necessary. I've also never seen him have to carry an offense when needed. He had the luxury of having the best team in college football around him. And so far in New England, he hasn't had to either. I think he's a good quarterback but not an elite game changing quarterback. Maybe he will be but I don't think he is. And that's always been my opinion....I don't care what "experts" say. Would I have been ok taking him? I'd rather him than Bridgewater or Lock.

                        As for your second comment, I said Foles IF we go down that road again because he'd be the best of what would be available. My preference is to do what we can to get Wilson. Or if things clear up with Watson, then I'd try to get him.

                        And I said I would take a quarterback in the third round or later because I don't think any of the quarterbacks coming out next year are worth spending a first or second round pick on. To me, if you're drafting a quarterback in the first round, or even the second round, he needs to have a high floor as well as a high ceiling. And that's because we'd be passing on real legitimate talent and playmakers at other positions we desperately need. None of these quarterbacks coming out next year have that. And frankly I don't think any of them have a high ceiling, with the exception of Willis.

                        Willis probably has the best physical traits but he's very raw and watching him play this year, he's more bust than boom. We should have seen more from him this year to consider him in the first or second round.

                        Yeah, it's not a great position to be in....but that's a result of the decisions made by this organization.

                        This is a bad year to be needing a quarterback.
                        Organization's decisions past 5 years have set is back, that said the organization's decisions have put us in a position to play a meaningful game in December and a shot at first place in the AFC West.

                        Bears organization to draft Fields has resulted in him going 2-6 while completing 58% of hos passes with a 4 td 8 int's. I will take our organization over that pick.

                        If you want to say we would be just like the Pats if we took Jones, fair enough. I'm happy with Surtain and believe we would beat the Pats.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by sra84 View Post

                          Jones offers little to no mobility. And in today's NFL, it's vital for your quarterback to be able to run when necessary. I've also never seen him have to carry an offense when needed. He had the luxury of having the best team in college football around him. And so far in New England, he hasn't had to either. I think he's a good quarterback but not an elite game changing quarterback. Maybe he will be but I don't think he is. And that's always been my opinion....I don't care what "experts" say. Would I have been ok taking him? I'd rather him than Bridgewater or Lock.

                          As for your second comment, I said Foles IF we go down that road again because he'd be the best of what would be available. My preference is to do what we can to get Wilson. Or if things clear up with Watson, then I'd try to get him.

                          And I said I would take a quarterback in the third round or later because I don't think any of the quarterbacks coming out next year are worth spending a first or second round pick on. To me, if you're drafting a quarterback in the first round, or even the second round, he needs to have a high floor as well as a high ceiling. And that's because we'd be passing on real legitimate talent and playmakers at other positions we desperately need. None of these quarterbacks coming out next year have that. And frankly I don't think any of them have a high ceiling, with the exception of Willis.

                          Willis probably has the best physical traits but he's very raw and watching him play this year, he's more bust than boom. We should have seen more from him this year to consider him in the first or second round.

                          Yeah, it's not a great position to be in....but that's a result of the decisions made by this organization.

                          This is a bad year to be needing a quarterback.
                          OK....thanks for responding. And I did not mean to say that you were listening to the experts about Jones, but he's the #1 rookie QB as we speak, and so all those who dismissed him because of his lower upside maybe did not respect what he brought on day one. Because I watch other rookie QBs, even 2nd year types, and they look less polished. So whether it's his previous or current coaching, or the system/team he came from, it's still on him to execute in The NFL. And though I am not a pats fan, he has been an important piece of their puzzle. As a rookie of all things.

                          Given you did not want Rodgers, Ryan or Watson, and seemed unsure about Wilson's take on us, AND you did not want to draft till round 3 at the earliest, I was not sure who was starting next year. And Foles does not excite me at this point.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                            OK....thanks for responding. And I did not mean to say that you were listening to the experts about Jones, but he's the #1 rookie QB as we speak, and so all those who dismissed him because of his lower upside maybe did not respect what he brought on day one. Because I watch other rookie QBs, even 2nd year types, and they look less polished. So whether it's his previous or current coaching, or the system/team he came from, it's still on him to execute in The NFL. And though I am not a pats fan, he has been an important piece of their puzzle. As a rookie of all things.

                            Given you did not want Rodgers, Ryan or Watson, and seemed unsure about Wilson's take on us, AND you did not want to draft till round 3 at the earliest, I was not sure who was starting next year. And Foles does not excite me at this point.
                            Foles would keep us where we are.
                            I think some of the takes on Mac forgets that if you have the right ability in the right places, you don't need legs. Manning wasn't a runner. When he ran, it was like watching someone who has never ran a day in his life. Same for Brady. You don't necessarily need to be a dual threat QB, it helps especially on teams with bad OLs, so if a play breaks down, you're a threat. But teams with good coaches, a solid OL, and passable weapons. You can be a Mac Jones, a Brady, a Manning, a Stafford.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                              Did you mean those picks?

                              The fact we got a 2nd and 3rd seems pretty fair bartering. And yes, if Paton and company can convert them into good players, or even as part of a package, and given how well the D is playing of late, I am pretty good with it thus far.
                              Have herd it reported that is the kind of deal one gets for a qb.

                              Pretty sure most people agree it was a great deal for the Broncos
                              Lets Ride!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

                                Foles would keep us where we are.
                                I think some of the takes on Mac forgets that if you have the right ability in the right places, you don't need legs. Manning wasn't a runner. When he ran, it was like watching someone who has never ran a day in his life. Same for Brady. You don't necessarily need to be a dual threat QB, it helps especially on teams with bad OLs, so if a play breaks down, you're a threat. But teams with good coaches, a solid OL, and passable weapons. You can be a Mac Jones, a Brady, a Manning, a Stafford.
                                Agreed. I have been preaching how the NFL QBs over the last 5-10 seasons are overall, more mobile/athletic, but with good arms. The trail is pretty obvious I suppose - Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Herbert, etc. But that does not rule out the stay at home QBs, who are smart and effective. The Mannings, Bradys, etc. Once upon a time there were really good running QBs, who had ok arms. But seemed like "run first" types.. But even if you go way back, there actually were some really good mobile/passing QBs.....Tarkenton, Young, for example.

                                So I would never rule out a non runner type QB who knows how to lead an O, who can pass with accuracy and effectiveness, and can see the whole field and understand the defenses in front of them. You get extra points for some traits that others do not have. Manning was the coach on the field. How do you even compare his leadership/strategic value to a an athletic/passing QB who relies on the coaches?

                                Long story (sorry) short....Mac Jones is a great fit for The pats. He checks the BB boxes for a rookie. He can pass, he can think, and his team has multiple running backs that can wear you down. And apparently he can win.
                                Last edited by CanDB; 11-30-2021, 12:52 PM.

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