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  • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

    If you mean OT, we are on the same page. I am pretty sure you mean OT.

    As for pick #64....if we are talking starters, I might lean to OT. But if we want an Oliner for more depth, I would go CB, because there are going to be good DBs at that point. Edge is definitely in the cards, but again, is this as critical to Paton as the other two? Having said that, at 64, or if one of the gems on our board is available if we move up a little, I am quite ok with pulling the trigger, without giving away much in terms of our 3rd and 4th round picks. Those 4 picks are very valuable. They can find starters, or add solid depth to our team. Use wisely.
    If I can add onto this - much like my previous comment DT/NT are being overlooked IMO. Mike saw some drop-off in his play last year and we are THIN there in terms of depth. And of course I missed it in my previous post. Updated order below:

    1. Offensive Center
    2. Right Tackle
    3. DT/NT
    4. Corner Back
    5. EDGE
    6. ILB
    7.Runningback
    8. TE
    9. Fullback (UDFA could easily get us one of those

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Rich_C View Post

      I can see this. I also think we need to think about an upgrade in the interior of the DL. IMO - DJ Jones will replace Shelby Harris. So we are now looking ahead towards a need to upgrade the IDL spot (DT/NT). Speaking to your comments about EDGE etc. I could see Paton being willing to package picks to move back up into the 1st. I can see this being a bit of a split draft. trade a few picks to grab "our guy" in the 1st. Then move around in the later rounds and take riskier fliers on raw talent who might make the roster or PS and depth.

      Major Positions of need for me:

      1. Offensive Center
      2. Right Tackle
      3. Corner Back
      4. EDGE
      5. ILB
      6.Runningback
      7. TE
      8. Fullback (UDFA could easily get us one of those)
      I like the bolded part. This is why I hope we are going to the draft feeling pretty confident about our roster, and having the opportunity to make a bit of a splash by moving up for a stud we covet in a position of need. It's good to have depth and so forth, but sometimes you have to make a big move to secure a long term star. So hopefully by the draft we have very few needs, in the eyes of Paton and his roster group, because that allows us to make a real impact move, while leaving enough selections to cover the depth aspect of this team.

      Comment


      • As far as I’m concerned, this team is already better than it’s been in many years and we still have the draft to go. I also think the franchise is finally heading in the right direction. I don’t have to be in love with every move to know Paton is righting the ship.

        It all needs to play out, of course, but I’m liking the overall direction. I’m very interested to see how the draft goes.
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        • Am I on Paton's side? Clearly I am. Anyone who has read any of my posts about him will think I am the leader of the fan club. But just like some folks fall out of grace with me for actions/words that are hard to believe or accept, Paton fell into grace with me (as I did not know him too well before), by the way he has backed up his resume with one smart maneuver after another.

          Lets be fair, all GMs will make mistakes along the way....or if not mistakes, even experience some bad luck that can alter the plan. But when someone makes solid decisions most of the time, I back off with critiquing for the most part, only going that route again if a glaring mistake or two can not be turned away from.

          I love the way he took the most important position on the field seriously, even if it took him one season to solidify. In fact, if not for Watson's off the field situation, he might have been acquired by Paton last year. He was clearly kicking tires here and there, and it is not an easy process to trade for well established QBs.

          I liked the Von trade, because it verified that we could play D without him, while giving us much needed draft picks for whatever was to come....and sure enough, they are very much valued now that we traded capital for Wilson. And it didn't hurt that Von got a great opportunity and used it to the max! Plus even after the trade we had a shot at signing him up again, though the price was very steep.

          And after a season, I loved his first draft!! So many talented young men, and many with starter ability/potential.

          I could say more, but he has made me a believer, therefore whatever he does gong forward will likely get a pass from my little perch, but clearly he does not need my approval. At the same time, I do expect some decisions to be contrary to my liking, or questionable, but that's normal stuff. There are many ways to get to the finish line.

          All in all, given what I know now that I didn't know a year ago about this guy, I am excited to see how he utilizes our '22 draft picks.
          Last edited by CanDB; 04-04-2022, 12:13 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CanDB View Post
            Am I on Paton's side? Clearly I am. Anyone who has read any of my posts about him will think I am the leader of the fan club. But just like some folks fall out of grace with me for actions/words that are hard to believe or accept, Paton fell into grace with me (as I did not know him too well before), by the way he has backed up his resume with one smart maneuver after another.

            Lets be fair, all GMs will make mistakes along the way....or if not mistakes, even experience some bad luck that can alter the plan. But when someone makes solid decisions most of the time, I back off with critiquing for the most part, only going that route again if a glaring mistake or two can not be turned away from.

            I love the way he took the most important position on the field seriously, even if it took him one season to solidify. In fact, if not for Watson's off the field situation, he might have been acquired by Paton last year. He was clearly kicking tires here and there, and it is not an easy process to trade for well established QBs.

            I liked the Von trade, because it verified that we could play D without him, while giving us much needed draft picks for whatever was to come....and sure enough, they are very much valued now that we traded capital for Wilson. And it didn't hurt that Von got a great opportunity and used it to the max! Plus even after the trade we had a shot at signing him up again, though the price was very steep.

            And after a season, I loved his first draft!! So many talented young men, and many with starter ability/potential.

            I could say more, but he has made me a believer, therefore whatever he does gong forward will likely get a pass from my little perch, but clearly he does not need my approval. At the same time, I do expect some decisions to be contrary to my liking, or questionable, but that's normal stuff. There are many ways to get to the finish line.

            All in all, given what I know now that I didn't know a year ago about this guy, I am excited to see how he utilizes our '22 draft picks.
            I like the guy, but I'm not nearly as high on him as you are... yet.

            Clearly I love the Wilson move. I tend to believe he gave up more than he needed to, but that is pure speculation, and does not negate the fact that the trade makes us a contender right away.

            Outside of that trade, however, I'm still in wait a see mode.

            His draft was solid: I love the Williams pick, and I tend to believe Sterns is going to be a baller. Everybody else is in the wait a see category for me (even PS2, I've made my feelings on that pick pretty clear).

            I'm also not as high on this offseason as many are (outside of Wilson). I just don't see one position we are stronger at than we were last year. Maybe RT, maybe.

            I can see why so many want to believe in Gregory, but I just don't. And now that he's walking around with a sling and they are questioning whether he will be ready for the start of the season, I'm feeling pretty justified in my opinion of him. Everybody else I really consider a lateral move.

            That said, I have a ton of good will toward Paton, and I am also looking forward to seeing what he does in the draft.
            Bring Back ORANGE Sunday!!!

            Tim Tebow combines the intensity of Ray Lewis with the throwing ability of... Ray Lewis.

            "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andrew Jackson

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            • Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

              I like the guy, but I'm not nearly as high on him as you are... yet.

              Clearly I love the Wilson move. I tend to believe he gave up more than he needed to, but that is pure speculation, and does not negate the fact that the trade makes us a contender right away.

              Outside of that trade, however, I'm still in wait a see mode.

              His draft was solid: I love the Williams pick, and I tend to believe Sterns is going to be a baller. Everybody else is in the wait a see category for me (even PS2, I've made my feelings on that pick pretty clear).

              I'm also not as high on this offseason as many are (outside of Wilson). I just don't see one position we are stronger at than we were last year. Maybe RT, maybe.

              I can see why so many want to believe in Gregory, but I just don't. And now that he's walking around with a sling and they are questioning whether he will be ready for the start of the season, I'm feeling pretty justified in my opinion of him. Everybody else I really consider a lateral move.

              That said, I have a ton of good will toward Paton, and I am also looking forward to seeing what he does in the draft.
              Fair ball. And this is not an attempt to counter your take, but are there things you wanted to see him do this offseason?

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              • Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                Fair ball. And this is not an attempt to counter your take, but are there things you wanted to see him do this offseason?
                I really wanted to see him address ILB. Obviously I would have really liked Wagner, but that would have been miraculous, and the fact that the best ILB to play here in 7 years (Young) has not been targeted, and the apparent choice of Jewell over Johnson, to me looks to be a big mistake. This has been something I've been pounding the table for the past couple years. Although, I admit, signing a run stuffer like Jones could have a big impact on this position, I feel (so far) we have settled for the weakest options at that position.

                I also make no bones about the fact that I wanted Von or Jones. Von's contract was a little ridiculous, so that was a good call, but I think Jones was getable. Clowney and Gregory made my list, but mostly as an afterthought. Both are selfish, and even though only one seems to be a malcontent, he's the one that has the resume to justify the signing. That choice seems to be a lack of options.
                Last edited by broncojuan; 04-05-2022, 07:46 AM.
                Bring Back ORANGE Sunday!!!

                Tim Tebow combines the intensity of Ray Lewis with the throwing ability of... Ray Lewis.

                "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andrew Jackson

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                • Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

                  I really wanted to see him address ILB. Obviously I would have really liked Wagner, but that would have been miraculous, and the fact that the best ILB to play here in 7 years (Young) has not been targeted, and the apparent choice of Jewell over Johnson, to me looks to be a big mistake. This has been something I've been pounding the table for the past couple years. Although, I admit, signing a run stuffer like Jones could have a big impact on this position, I feel (so far) we have settled for the weakest options at that position.

                  I also make no bones about the fact that I wanted Von or Jones. Von's contract was a little ridiculous, so that was a good call, but I think Jones was getable. Clowney and Gregory made my list, but mostly as an afterthought. Both are selfish, and even though only one seems to be a malcontent, he's the one that has the resume to justify the signing. That choice seems to be a lack of options.
                  I see. I'm with you on ILB. I have been for at least 5 years. It was in the QB, Oline discussion for me, and those things festered during our 5-6 year drought. I too wanted Wagner.

                  I can also understand your concern about Gregory. He's a bit risky. If we can manage him, his has real upside. He can be a beast.

                  Thanks for taking the time.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

                    I really wanted to see him address ILB. Obviously I would have really liked Wagner, but that would have been miraculous, and the fact that the best ILB to play here in 7 years (Young) has not been targeted, and the apparent choice of Jewell over Johnson, to me looks to be a big mistake. This has been something I've been pounding the table for the past couple years. Although, I admit, signing a run stuffer like Jones could have a big impact on this position, I feel (so far) we have settled for the weakest options at that position.

                    I also make no bones about the fact that I wanted Von or Jones. Von's contract was a little ridiculous, so that was a good call, but I think Jones was getable. Clowney and Gregory made my list, but mostly as an afterthought. Both are selfish, and even though only one seems to be a malcontent, he's the one that has the resume to justify the signing. That choice seems to be a lack of options.
                    The Inside Backer who had the most snaps in 2021 was Baron Browning. Reports indicate that he may be used as a rotational Outside Backer and provide depth inside. In nine starts and 528 snaps, he had 58 tackles (32 solo/2 TFL/1 QB hit) and 2 PD.

                    The other Inside Backers who had starts:

                    Josey Jewell, 2 starts, 82 snaps, 8 tackles (7 solo/2 TFL), 1 PD, 1 FF;

                    Alexander Johnson, 6 starts, 325 snaps, 32 tackles (20 solo/2 TFL/2 QB hits), 3 PD, 1 FR;

                    Kenny Young, 6 starts, 261 snaps, 29 tackles (14 solo), 1 FF;

                    Micah Kiser was signed from Rams PS and was an untendered RFA signed by the Raiders. He had 2 starts, 98 snaps, 19 tackles (9 solo/1 TFL);

                    Jonas Griffith, 4 starts, 255 snaps, 46 tackles (22 solo/4 TFL/2 QB hits), 1 FR;

                    Justin Strnad, 5 starts, 316 snaps, 36 tackles (23 solo/1 QB hit)

                    Kiser and Young came from the Rams as did Ejiro Evero, so he knows them. His D will be mostly the same fronts and coverages, but called differently. Also, the lens through which scouting becomes a game plan will be different, too. They let Kiser walk and haven't re-signed Young. Jewell, who was on track to have a great season in 2021, was re-signed and Johnson hasn't been. Denver traded with the Niners for Griffith last year and he will be ERFA next year. His production in four starts was attention getting and, his similarity to Alexander Johnson might explain why the latter is still UFA. Inside the organization of a pro football team there are reasons they do and don't do certain things beside incompetence, stupidity and laziness.

                    "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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                    • I personally hope Browning gets the most snaps at ILB in 2022. Imo he was out best ILB in 2021. Hopefully he takes his game up a level or two in his 2nd year.

                      With the way the West is shaping up into a passing power house I am not sure we will be happy we signed Jewell. I get he played better before getting hurt but he has limitations in the passing game even considering his improvements. We will play 11 games outside of the division and I assume we will need his thumper play in some of those games.
                      Let's Ride!

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                      • Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                        The Inside Backer who had the most snaps in 2021 was Baron Browning. Reports indicate that he may be used as a rotational Outside Backer and provide depth inside. In nine starts and 528 snaps, he had 58 tackles (32 solo/2 TFL/1 QB hit) and 2 PD.

                        The other Inside Backers who had starts:

                        Josey Jewell, 2 starts, 82 snaps, 8 tackles (7 solo/2 TFL), 1 PD, 1 FF;

                        Alexander Johnson, 6 starts, 325 snaps, 32 tackles (20 solo/2 TFL/2 QB hits), 3 PD, 1 FR;

                        Kenny Young, 6 starts, 261 snaps, 29 tackles (14 solo), 1 FF;

                        Micah Kiser was signed from Rams PS and was an untendered RFA signed by the Raiders. He had 2 starts, 98 snaps, 19 tackles (9 solo/1 TFL);

                        Jonas Griffith, 4 starts, 255 snaps, 46 tackles (22 solo/4 TFL/2 QB hits), 1 FR;

                        Justin Strnad, 5 starts, 316 snaps, 36 tackles (23 solo/1 QB hit)

                        Kiser and Young came from the Rams as did Ejiro Evero, so he knows them. His D will be mostly the same fronts and coverages, but called differently. Also, the lens through which scouting becomes a game plan will be different, too. They let Kiser walk and haven't re-signed Young. Jewell, who was on track to have a great season in 2021, was re-signed and Johnson hasn't been. Denver traded with the Niners for Griffith last year and he will be ERFA next year. His production in four starts was attention getting and, his similarity to Alexander Johnson might explain why the latter is still UFA. Inside the organization of a pro football team there are reasons they do and don't do certain things beside incompetence, stupidity and laziness.
                        I never said anything about incompetence, stupidity or laziness. in fact I said I have a lot of good will toward Paton, but I'm not going to act like every move is pure gold if I don't like it.

                        For me ILB/MLB is the 2nd most important position on the defense, after DE/Edge rusher. So much so that I would take a really good ILB/MLB over and elite level DT/NT CB or Safety. For instance, If given the choice between Al Wilson or Deion Sanders to start a rebuild, I'm taking Wilson. I think an elite CB is a nice luxury, not a necessity. So passing on Parsons for PS2 isn't something I'm going to praise, it does't matter if PS2 goes on to be a better player than Champ (I fully admit my first choice with that pick would have been a QB, but that had more to do with position value than player evaluation).

                        I also can't pretend any ILB on our current roster inspires me, all but Jewell look to me to be back-ups at best (I do see potential in Browning, but if they split his time I think it will be a mistake. In or out, pick one). I actually loved Jewell coming out of Iowa, and while I don't think he's bad, I think Young or Johnson were pretty clearly better players.

                        With any luck I'll be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), but I see things the way I see them.
                        Last edited by broncojuan; 04-05-2022, 02:57 PM.
                        Bring Back ORANGE Sunday!!!

                        Tim Tebow combines the intensity of Ray Lewis with the throwing ability of... Ray Lewis.

                        "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andrew Jackson

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                        • Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

                          I never said anything about incompetence, stupidity or laziness. in fact I said I have a lot of good will toward Paton, but I'm not going to act like every move is pure gold if I don't like it.

                          For me ILB/MLB is the 2nd most important position on the defense, after DE/Edge rusher. So much so that I would take a really good ILB/MLB over and elite level DL/NT CB or Safety. For instance, If given the choice between Al Wilson or Deion Sanders to start a rebuild, I'm taking Wilson. I think an elite CB is a nice luxury, not a necessity. So passing on Parsons for PS2 isn't something I'm going to praise, it does't matter if PS2 goes on to be a better player than Champ (I fully admit my first choice with that pick would have been a QB, but that had more to do with position value than player evaluation).

                          I also can't pretend any ILB on our current roster inspires me, all but Jewell look to me to be back-ups at best (I do see potential in Browning, but if they split his time I think it will be a mistake. In or out, pick one). I actually loved Jewell coming out of Iowa, and while I don't think he's bad, I think Young or Johnson were pretty clearly better players.

                          With any luck I'll be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), but I see things the way I see them.
                          I love AL as much as the next guy but he's not/was not a game changer. He's solid and did his job well but there is a reason he won't make HOF. You would take a MLB that could be replaced over arguably the best CB all time?

                          All defensive players are complimentary. A shut down corner gives pass rushers extra time to get to the passer because they are glued to their WR and vice-versa. Great pass rushers make avg corners look good because they can be a step slow but it doesn't matter if the QB is rushing his throws.

                          Same goes for ILBs and safeties. Great coverage LBs can give the safety extra time to float and a great safety can hit the line of scrimmage and slow the runners down to give the LB time to hit his gap.

                          If I'm building a new defense I'm getting the best player possible regardless of position and find good compliment pieces. No defense is ever going to have perfect players at every position at the same time, the salary cap guarantees that. Get the best players you can and put it on the DC to put it all together

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                          • Originally posted by JvDub95 View Post

                            I love AL as much as the next guy but he's not/was not a game changer. He's solid and did his job well but there is a reason he won't make HOF. You would take a MLB that could be replaced over arguably the best CB all time?

                            All defensive players are complimentary. A shut down corner gives pass rushers extra time to get to the passer because they are glued to their WR and vice-versa. Great pass rushers make avg corners look good because they can be a step slow but it doesn't matter if the QB is rushing his throws.

                            Same goes for ILBs and safeties. Great coverage LBs can give the safety extra time to float and a great safety can hit the line of scrimmage and slow the runners down to give the LB time to hit his gap.

                            If I'm building a new defense I'm getting the best player possible regardless of position and find good compliment pieces. No defense is ever going to have perfect players at every position at the same time, the salary cap guarantees that. Get the best players you can and put it on the DC to put it all together
                            Yes. not because I think Al is a HOFer (he's clearly closer to Thomas or Tuggle than Lewis or Seau), or even better at his position than Deion was at his (I'm not a fool). I just feel that teams should be build from the inside, and CB is much less involved than ILB, who should be the closest thing a defense has to a QB (involved in every play). I should note that I developed this "philosophy" because of those 04-07 teams. I loved Champ (for my money I would also take him over Deion), but Al was the most important player on that D.
                            Bring Back ORANGE Sunday!!!

                            Tim Tebow combines the intensity of Ray Lewis with the throwing ability of... Ray Lewis.

                            "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andrew Jackson

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                            • Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

                              Yes. not because I think Al is a HOFer (he's clearly closer to Thomas or Tuggle than Lewis or Seau), or even better at his position than Deion was at his (I'm not a fool). I just feel that teams should be build from the inside, and CB is much less involved than ILB, who should be the closest thing a defense has to a QB (involved in every play). I should note that I developed this "philosophy" because of those 04-07 teams. I loved Champ (for my money I would also take him over Deion), but Al was the most important player on that D.
                              I completely get what you're saying....they aren't called the QB of the defense for no reason. I just can't pass up a generational player at CB or S or DT (Aaron Donald??) for an avg or above avg ILB.

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                              • I am actually glad they didn't sign Wagner. He will average 10M/yr and potentially 13M avg per year with the Rams, that is too much for the Broncos to put out for an ILB with what their scheme is likely to be. Broncos starters going into the 2021 season made ~4M between them.

                                Darius Leonard was the highest paid ILB/MLB in 2021 (Colts), Colts were 16th in total yards vs Broncos 8th in total yards. Seattle last season was 28th in total yards defensively with Wagner as the starting ILB... Wagner was 2nd highest paid LB. Buffalo Bills were the best defense in 2021, they play a 4-3 base personnel, Tremaine Edwards is their MLB he was a 1st round pick and is getting his 5th year option this season at 12.7M. The 49ers were 3rd in total defense yards last season they play a 4-3 base personnel and no LB shows up in salary ranking. The Cowboys have spent relatively heavily in draft capital over the last few seasons, the latest is Micah Parsons ... the Cowboys ranked 7th in points against and 19th in total yards. The Broncos were competitive last season with low salary, "backup" ILB's like they have been for virtually the last decade, the position has not been a difference maker. In 2015 the ILB's were Trevathan and Brandon Marshall starting, they were not high paid LB's, Trevathan was a 6th round draft choice.

                                In 2021 the Broncos were 3rd in points against, with ultimately backup ILB's. I think the new DC is going with a similar defensive scheme as the Rams and/or what Fangio is known for?
                                I would like to see the Broncos draft an ILB early (2nd-4th round this season) as I do most seasons - and they don't - but, I also think they will be fine at the position without spending a lot of cap or draft cap.

                                I imagine that if certain FA's are still available after the draft the Broncos will consider bringing them back - Kenny Young, Bryce Callahan and Kareem Jackson - I think it will depend on how they were able to address those positions in the draft.
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