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  • #46
    Originally posted by armedequation View Post

    Hey Buddy!

    Some people forget that these qbs are often drafted by bad teams. Daniel jones went to a horrid giants team that had a terrible offensive line....and coaching. The bears oline is terrible and nagys gameplans leave something to be desired which can happen with a first year coach.

    i like paton and what hes done so far. I look forward to what he can do with at the least competant oc and st coaches
    Exactly.....the parity in the league created by the draft usually means the most sought after players are heading to weak teams. Especially a weak team with a weak QB. In that case, Lawrence was going to a bad team no matter. But sometimes a player like Jones falls a little, and goes to a decent team. Or in some other cases, a real stud falls below 20, and a really good team gets them. That might not be a QB, but of course, Baltimore took a chance on Lamar and apparently shifted their O to maximize his game.

    I sure hope Paton proves me right, and takes care of some key positions next year.....especially QB.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by darryn16 View Post

      I think Paton is just waiting to see how the season plays out before making a decision on the coaching staff. Since Fangio and Co. was not his hire, he is doing his due diligence. In the end, I feel he will bring in the coaching staff HE wants.
      Also, this upcoming draft will tell a lot in terms of how astute he is as a personnel guy.
      I have seen it reported by someone who seems to have good info on what is going on in the Broncos that Vic has a playoff mandate or he will be gone. The right thing to do is to allow him to coach out the season without any "shaking" up of the team unless Vic wants to do it. IMO this is how we sell the next HC that we will do everything we can to help him be successful.

      Paton has made a lot of good moves and imo is doing all the right things. I am sure he is already building a list of coaching candidates.
      Lets Ride!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by armedequation View Post
        Mac knows offenses and can read defenses. Thats a big reason why he is successful. If he couldn't then i doubt bill drafts him. He was pro ready and was my favorite qb that would step right in. If i was drafting someone who needed time it would have been lance. This year im not quite sure yet...
        That is pretty much the draft report I read on him before the draft. Most Pro ready qb in the draft. The question was his up side due to not having the same physical talents as other QBs.

        I do not like to get too caught up in the media idea of what is a good draft pick. Going back decades the media always wants the next Mahomes type Qb. The physically gifted wonder kid. I think the media draft machine tends to forgot the lesser physically talented QBs like Brady+Warner+Montana who have been very successful in the NFL at taking their team to the Super Bowl and being the kind of QB who can win games.

        I even wonder how much opportunity does the media even get to evaluate the mental side of college QBs? In general it seems the NFL draft is bad at evaluating the mental side of QBs. I wonder if the media is even worse. I do not think the media gets the same opportunities the teams do.
        Last edited by Hadez; 12-01-2021, 04:56 AM.
        Lets Ride!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Hadez View Post

          That is pretty much the draft report I read on him before the draft. Most Pro ready qb in the draft. The question was his up side due to not having the same physical talents as other QBs.

          I do not like to get too caught up in the media idea of what is a good draft pick. Going back decades the media always wants the next Mahomes type Qb. The physically gifted wonder kid. I think the media draft machine tends to forgot the lesser physically talented QBs like Brady+Warner+Montana who have been very successful in the NFL at taking their team to the Super Bowl and being the kind of QB who can win games.

          I even wonder how much opportunity does the media even get to evaluate the mental side of college QBs? In general it seems the NFL draft is bad at evaluating the mental side of QBs. I wonder if the media is even worse. I do not think the media gets the same opportunities the teams do.
          I think that his physical talents arent as bad as some make it out to be. I would rarher my qb to know the offense inside and out and be able to read defenses than not and just rely on his physical skillset. The one thing i think that set mac apart from everyone else. There were numerous times it was reported that mac was teaching people the play book. The 2 off the top of my head are bill obrien when he went to alabama and then cam at ne.

          even if teams get all the chances to evaluate a player, it doesnt seem like they necessarily do a good job...paxton is a good example of that. Raiders and how they draft is another...
          Glen Haven Fire

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Hadez View Post

            That is pretty much the draft report I read on him before the draft. Most Pro ready qb in the draft. The question was his up side due to not having the same physical talents as other QBs.

            I do not like to get too caught up in the media idea of what is a good draft pick. Going back decades the media always wants the next Mahomes type Qb. The physically gifted wonder kid. I think the media draft machine tends to forgot the lesser physically talented QBs like Brady+Warner+Montana who have been very successful in the NFL at taking their team to the Super Bowl and being the kind of QB who can win games.

            I even wonder how much opportunity does the media even get to evaluate the mental side of college QBs? In general it seems the NFL draft is bad at evaluating the mental side of QBs. I wonder if the media is even worse. I do not think the media gets the same opportunities the teams do.
            If I recall correctly, since the merger there has not been a draft in which more than three QBs taken in the first round went on to have successful careers with the team that drafted them. This year could break that fifty year trend given that five QBs were picked in the first round, but it will take several years before we know.
            "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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            • #51
              You know, I started this thread with positive intent, but I did appreciate a number of things Paton has done so far for us. But post by post, fact after fact, it is even more clear (to me), how good he has done! We talked about his first draft in this forum, and some of it came down to the folks who wanted Fields or another QB instead of a CB. And yes, we started gathering steam with Surtain's effectiveness and Williams' rushing ability. They were not exactly "no brainer" quality draft picks (whether or not you liked them), given how much attention they got before the draft. And the belief that Miami was ticked as they watched us maneuver around them for Williams. But seeing how competitive this rookie group has showed us already, and reading more from you folks, I am even more impressed with the job Paton has done!

              I always hope that we get 3 starters out of any draft, and of course, some depth players. But my goodness, this group might end up very much over-achieving that goal. Before the smoke all clears, we may end up with 4+ starters and depth. That wins me over.

              Then the Von Miller trade, which I am convinced is a winner. I talked about addition by subtraction, not in terms of Von being a weight on us, but surprisingly (maybe not so for Paton and company), our D looks better. And lets not forget the 2nd and 3rd rounders attached. Excellent draft cap, for individual picks, or possibly as part of a package.

              Yes, I am waiting on the QB situation, and the coaching aspect as well, but if he handles those responsibilities with the same effectiveness as his first draft with The Broncos and the Miller trade, I will be a huge fan!
              Last edited by CanDB; 12-01-2021, 09:44 AM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by armedequation View Post

                I think that his physical talents arent as bad as some make it out to be. I would rarher my qb to know the offense inside and out and be able to read defenses than not and just rely on his physical skillset. The one thing i think that set mac apart from everyone else. There were numerous times it was reported that mac was teaching people the play book. The 2 off the top of my head are bill obrien when he went to alabama and then cam at ne.

                even if teams get all the chances to evaluate a player, it doesnt seem like they necessarily do a good job...paxton is a good example of that. Raiders and how they draft is another...
                We kinda see examples of physically talented QBs who rely on their skillset being a hindrance to their team vs a weapon with the bad games from Mahomes. When he couldn't rely on his skills, Chiefs offense couldn't do a thing, because Mahomes couldn't just play like a standard pocket QB. Which was also bc the Chiefs OL sucks this season. His skills always allowed him to make up for their terrible OL, but this season teams got better at disrupting that ability.

                I think its easier to rely on a smart QB with a decent arm, than rely on someone who extend plays with their legs.
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                • #53
                  Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

                  We kinda see examples of physically talented QBs who rely on their skillset being a hindrance to their team vs a weapon with the bad games from Mahomes. When he couldn't rely on his skills, Chiefs offense couldn't do a thing, because Mahomes couldn't just play like a standard pocket QB. Which was also bc the Chiefs OL sucks this season. His skills always allowed him to make up for their terrible OL, but this season teams got better at disrupting that ability.

                  I think its easier to rely on a smart QB with a decent arm, than rely on someone who extend plays with their legs.
                  Certainly a wise perspective IB. I mean, as long as the mobile/athletic/passing QB has the full toolset, sure, he's the guy. But in the long run, few QBs will be really mobile in their later years, whereas a Brady, Rodgers can utilize their smarts to counter any loss in agility.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                    Certainly a wise perspective IB. I mean, as long as the mobile/athletic/passing QB has the full toolset, sure, he's the guy. But in the long run, few QBs will be really mobile in their later years, whereas a Brady, Rodgers can utilize their smarts to counter any loss in agility.
                    Yep. Again with Manning. When he ran, people chuckled bc he looked so slow. But it was all jokes when laughing because Peyton had one of the best minds in the history of the sport.
                    Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, and Kyler Murray are kind of anomalies. Both of them are actually pretty good runners, but it's a tool in their back pocket, not their primary skillset. Wilson played baseball(drafted by the Orioles and Rockies), so he knows how to run smart. While QBs whom legs are a major part of their ability tend not to be smart runners. Kyler was drafted by the As 9th overall. He also happens to be a very intelligent runner. Which is needed for a guy that's only 5'10 in cleats.

                    All 3 of them are capable, pro bowl caliber or better pocket QBs even though they can if needed, be effective with their legs.
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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by InsaneBlaze23 View Post

                      Yep. Again with Manning. When he ran, people chuckled bc he looked so slow. But it was all jokes when laughing because Peyton had one of the best minds in the history of the sport.
                      Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, and Kyler Murray are kind of anomalies. Both of them are actually pretty good runners, but it's a tool in their back pocket, not their primary skillset. Wilson played baseball(drafted by the Orioles and Rockies), so he knows how to run smart. While QBs whom legs are a major part of their ability tend not to be smart runners. Kyler was drafted by the As 9th overall. He also happens to be a very intelligent runner. Which is needed for a guy that's only 5'10 in cleats.

                      All 3 of them are capable, pro bowl caliber or better pocket QBs even though they can if needed, be effective with their legs.
                      Yeah...I never saw Manning or Brady as runners, though they could avoid the rush, and occasionally gain a first down.....in Brady's case, a goal line TD here and there. Rodgers was a very effective runner when he was younger, but clearly still knows how to use deception to surprise, and even score. This is where I am at a bit of a crossroad with Wilson. He is a gifted athlete, but as he slows down, can his pass game and smarts elevate his play enough? He is smart, so that is not really in doubt. But is his arm going to cover up for any rushing deficiency? Then again, you never want to bet against the man.

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                      • #56
                        At the end of the day, a quarterback's ability to make a play here or there with his legs is important. Not only escaping the rush but if a play breaks down and there is open field, it helps the offense sustain drives and makes the defense respect the quarterback's threat as a runner.

                        Smarts and mobility can both be had....it's not one or the other. And as smart as a quarterback is, if he's under constant pressure or his receivers don't get open, his smarts won't always bail him out.

                        I understand the importance of the mental makeup of a quarterback. It was my biggest criticism of Lock. But it is possible for guys to improve their football intelligence. You can coach that.

                        Don't forget how much of an impact Elway's ability to scramble was an asset to the Broncos offense for all those years......Helicopter run in Super Bowl 32!!
                        Last edited by sra84; 12-01-2021, 11:51 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by sra84 View Post
                          At the end of the day, a quarterback's ability to make a play here or there with his legs is important. Not only escaping the rush but if a play breaks down and there is open field, it helps the offense sustain drives and makes the defense respect the quarterback's threat as a runner.

                          Smarts and mobility can both be had....it's not one or the other. And as smart as a quarterback is, if he's under constant pressure or his receivers don't get open, his smarts won't always bail him out.

                          I understand the importance of the mental makeup of a quarterback. It was my biggest criticism of Lock. But it is possible for guys to improve their football intelligence. You can coach that.

                          Don't forget how much of an impact Elway's ability to scramble was an asset to the Broncos offense for all those years......Helicopter run in Super Bowl 32!!
                          Of course, QBs with an arm and decent running ability is what makes having a west coast offense even better. Having a QB that can sling the rock and run, while also having a solid run game...play action fiesta.
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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by CanDB View Post

                            Yeah...I never saw Manning or Brady as runners, though they could avoid the rush, and occasionally gain a first down.....in Brady's case, a goal line TD here and there. Rodgers was a very effective runner when he was younger, but clearly still knows how to use deception to surprise, and even score. This is where I am at a bit of a crossroad with Wilson. He is a gifted athlete, but as he slows down, can his pass game and smarts elevate his play enough? He is smart, so that is not really in doubt. But is his arm going to cover up for any rushing deficiency? Then again, you never want to bet against the man.
                            Wilson had one of the best arms in the league for a while, looks terrible after the finger injury. Hopefully that heals up, he could be available...
                            [sigpic

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Taos_Broncomaniac View Post

                              Wilson had one of the best arms in the league for a while, looks terrible after the finger injury. Hopefully that heals up, he could be available...
                              Are you thinking what I'm thinking???? Hopefully he is faking it a little, which means he wants out, and maybe we can get a reduced rate!

                              But be careful...

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	quote-when-everyone-agrees-someone-is-not-thinking-george-s-patton-84-3-0332.jpg Views:	0 Size:	46.7 KB ID:	8387273



                              Last edited by CanDB; 12-01-2021, 12:50 PM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by sra84 View Post

                                Well then we'll just disagree....I think Fields will be a franchise quarterback and you don't....simple as that.

                                I hope Paton gets us a franchise quarterback. But he has to earn my trust when it comes to quarterback evaluation....because Bridgewater was a waste of time.
                                Getting Teddy was simply a case of making the best of a bad situation.

                                Honestly, I think it likely the same will hold true this coming offseason.

                                Another year though, thats another thing. I am not a college fan or a draft guru by any means, but all the talk I see is that the '23 crop of college qb's will be a good one.
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