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  • #16
    Originally posted by L.M. View Post

    None of the kids were qualified to be named heir at the time that the Trust was created, and Pat stipulated what those qualifications were as a path for taking over. Only Beth Bowlen-Wallace, a child from his first marriage, and Brittany, a child of his second marriage, undertook that path, got the education, and worked for the Broncos organization. Unfortunately, another stipulation is that all of the children must agree unanimously on who will take over, and they cannot when two of them feel entitled.
    He left a mess for someone else to figure out.

    I don't think I would characterize 2011-2015 as an "aberration". If it is, so is 1996-1998 and every other winning period.
    I do. Peyton Manning was a fluke event and unlike any other in NFL history. Your comparison is faulty. It isn't about winning periods. It's about getting a Top 5 QB of all time off the waiver wire, only because another top-rated college QB (Luck) happened to be available. If Luck wasn't coming out, the Colts would have stuck with Peyton. BTW, IMO the 3 highest rated college QBs I've ever rated myself were Elway, Manning and Luck.

    And as much as Pat can be blamed for firing Shanahan and rolling the dice on McDoof, he deserves full credit for hiring Mike Shanahan in the first place which was the best and most successful HC hire in franchise history. I don't fault him for firing Shanahan after Mike failed to live up to the high standards he himself established. His mismanagement destroyed the defense with no hope in sight of ever repairing it. Mike's next stint in Washington also saw their defense fall into rapid decline.
    Yes, he does deserve full credit for hiring Shanahan. And he also deserves blame for firing the "best and most successful HC in franchise history". Take out the Manning years and let us know what the Broncos record is after Shanahan. The facts speak for themselves.

    It was also Bowlen that left Ellis in charge, who refused to rehire Shanahan, as well as hiring Elway as GM. This thread is about bashing the people in charge of the team now. Bowlen selected them.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by lvbronx View Post

      He left a mess for someone else to figure out.



      I do. Peyton Manning was a fluke event and unlike any other in NFL history. Your comparison is faulty. It isn't about winning periods. It's about getting a Top 5 QB of all time off the waiver wire, only because another top-rated college QB (Luck) happened to be available. If Luck wasn't coming out, the Colts would have stuck with Peyton. BTW, IMO the 3 highest rated college QBs I've ever rated myself were Elway, Manning and Luck.



      Yes, he does deserve full credit for hiring Shanahan. And he also deserves blame for firing the "best and most successful HC in franchise history". Take out the Manning years and let us know what the Broncos record is after Shanahan. The facts speak for themselves.

      It was also Bowlen that left Ellis in charge, who refused to rehire Shanahan, as well as hiring Elway as GM. This thread is about bashing the people in charge of the team now. Bowlen selected them.
      If Peyton Manning was a fluke event, so was Elway. Same could be said for the Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers swap.
      "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

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      • #18
        Originally posted by samparnell View Post

        If Peyton Manning was a fluke event, so was Elway. Same could be said for the Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers swap.
        In his defense, I think he means the simple fact that another team was able to acquire the greatest QB in another teams history, and he was able to replicate the success he had with his previous team. Most times when that happens it's a mess, Montana was solid in KC, and Rivers was OK in Indy
        Bring Back ORANGE Sunday!!!

        Tim Tebow combines the intensity of Ray Lewis with the throwing ability of... Ray Lewis.

        "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andrew Jackson

        sigpic

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        • #19
          Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

          In his defense, I think he means the simple fact that another team was able to acquire the greatest QB in another teams history, and he was able to replicate the success he had with his previous team. Most times when that happens it's a mess, Montana was solid in KC, and Rivers was OK in Indy
          Johnny Unitas and Bert Jones were pretty good, too.
          "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by samparnell View Post

            If Peyton Manning was a fluke event, so was Elway. Same could be said for the Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers swap.
            None of your examples were free agents nor were Eli or Rivers top 5 QBs on virtually everyone's list and Elway was already here before Bowlen bought the team. You're also not taking into account the win percentage while Peyton was here to when he wasn't or the same for Eli/Rivers.

            A big criticism of Shanahan at the time was, "He can't win without Elway". If we use these criteria, Bowlen didn't win without Elway, Peyton...or Shanahan.

            Shanahan was fired 13 seasons ago. Let's look at the 9 seasons when Peyton wasn't here during that time:
            • 1 winning season. 9-7 which was the year after we won the Super Bowl.
            • 2 .500 seasons
            • 6 losing seasons
            • 0 playoffs

            Looking at Shanahan's record in 10 seasons without Elway
            • 6 winning seasons
            • 2 .500 seasons
            • 2 losing seasons 6-10 and 7-9
            • 4 playoffs
            https://www.pro-football-reference.c.../den/index.htm

            Looking at the facts and considering how poorly we've done after Shanahan and without Manning, yeah I'd call the four Manning years an aberration. Those years stick out like a sore thumb statistically, which is what an aberration is.


            The reality is, we've been a very bad team since Shanahan was fired, except for the four Manning years. Bowlen fired Shanahan and replaced him with Mcdaniels.

            And I'd call a free agent, Top 5 QB who decided he wanted to raise his family in Denver a fluke.

            fluke - /flo͞ok/
            noun: fluke; plural noun: flukes
            an unlikely chance occurrence, especially a surprising piece of luck.
            lvbronx
            Old School
            Last edited by lvbronx; 01-15-2022, 07:04 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by lvbronx View Post

              None of your examples were free agents nor were Eli or Rivers top 5 QBs on virtually everyone's list and Elway was already here before Bowlen bought the team. You're also not taking into account the win percentage while Peyton was here to when he wasn't or the same for Eli/Rivers.

              A big criticism of Shanahan at the time was, "He can't win without Elway". If we use these criteria, Bowlen didn't win without Elway, Peyton...or Shanahan.

              Shanahan was fired 13 seasons ago. Let's look at the 9 seasons when Peyton wasn't here during that time:
              • 1 winning season. 9-7 which was the year after we won the Super Bowl.
              • 2 .500 seasons
              • 6 losing seasons
              • 0 playoffs

              Looking at Shanahan's record in 10 seasons without Elway
              • 6 winning seasons
              • 2 .500 seasons
              • 2 losing seasons 6-10 and 7-9
              • 4 playoffs
              https://www.pro-football-reference.c.../den/index.htm

              Looking at the facts and considering how poorly we've done after Shanahan and without Manning, yeah I'd call the four Manning years an aberration. Those years stick out like a sore thumb statistically, which is what an aberration is.


              The reality is, we've been a very bad team since Shanahan was fired, except for the four Manning years. Bowlen fired Shanahan and replaced him with Mcdaniels.

              And I'd call a free agent, Top 5 QB who decided he wanted to raise his family in Denver a fluke.


              OK. I see what you mean. Was referring to the manner of acquisition of that group of players as being out of the ordinary.
              "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                If Peyton Manning was a fluke event, so was Elway. Same could be said for the Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers swap.
                ALSO, LEAST WE FORGET: Generally speaking, left-side up flounder are flukes, and right-side up flounders are called flounders. That sounds easy enough to remember, but it gets worse. Flukes are also called “summer flounder,” and flounder, or right-side fish, are called “winter flounder.”

                Just sayin'

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Capt. Jack View Post

                  ALSO, LEAST WE FORGET: Generally speaking, left-side up flounder are flukes, and right-side up flounders are called flounders. That sounds easy enough to remember, but it gets worse. Flukes are also called “summer flounder,” and flounder, or right-side fish, are called “winter flounder.”

                  Just sayin'
                  A fluke is also part of an anchor, a whale's tail and a parasite.
                  "Stultum est timere quod vitare non potes." ~ Publilius Syrus

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                    A fluke is also part of an anchor, a whale's tail and a parasite.
                    OK, smarty pants!!!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by samparnell View Post

                      If Peyton Manning was a fluke event, so was Elway. Same could be said for the Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers swap.
                      Sometimes you need a fluke or two - let’s hear it for THE FLUKES!! I could really go for one this off-season to be honest

                      Hate List for 2016-2017 Season: 1. Oakland, 2. New England, 3. Kansas City, 4. Pittsburgh and 5. Houston (yes, Houston....)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

                        What Pat inherited. All the success the broncos have had over the last 40 years was built on the back of Elway, Shanahan, and Reeves. The best thing Pat did was stay out of their way, and Pat's family was a disaster way before they started worrying about the money they wanted that they never earned. As far as I'm concerned, the Bowlens can't get out of Denver fast enough.
                        A fair amount of Reeves' success was on the coattails of John Elway. Dan made him run an antiquated offensive system for about ten years. Reeves' departure was the best thing that happened. Actually, he should have been fired at the end of the 1990 5-11 season.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 7DnBrnc53 View Post

                          A fair amount of Reeves' success was on the coattails of John Elway. Dan made him run an antiquated offensive system for about ten years. Reeves' departure was the best thing that happened. Actually, he should have been fired at the end of the 1990 5-11 season.
                          Oh, he definitely held Elway back, but there was more to those teams than Elway. Those defenses were fantastic, and the offense was still really good. Just not as good as it could have been. Dan and John Might have done more with less than any QB/coach combo in league history.
                          Bring Back ORANGE Sunday!!!

                          Tim Tebow combines the intensity of Ray Lewis with the throwing ability of... Ray Lewis.

                          "It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word."-Andrew Jackson

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by broncojuan View Post

                            Oh, he definitely held Elway back, but there was more to those teams than Elway. Those defenses were fantastic, and the offense was still really good. Just not as good as it could have been. Dan and John Might have done more with less than any QB/coach combo in league history.
                            The best defenses they had when Dan and John were together (in my opinion) were the 91 and 92 teams. They were able to shut down a high flying Bills attack in the AFC Title Game. The 89 defense was good as well, but they allowed 55 points to the 49ers, so they weren't that great. Also, the 86 and 87 defenses were below average.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Some like to point out how lucky Elway was to get PM. You know who was really lucky...Ellis and the Trust. Need to go back to the 70s to find worse times for the Broncos than years under the Trust. Until Tebow took over the Broncos were tied with another team for the most losing over two years. Add all the McD years to the last 6 years and the Trust has over saw the worst Bronco years in my lifetime. Some can probably argue the PM years were better than the 80s Elway SB losing years.

                              Ellis is a corperate monkey.. I am ready for the Trust to go. They have all the arrogance of a upper level corperate monkey raking in money from the team but lack the go get em attitude owners like Pat Bowlen had.

                              Never saw Ellis once take a role in getting a future HoF LT like Bowlen did with Zim. Never seen Ellis once sneak into a hotel for a Super Bowl winner and talk to our future SB winning coach like Bowlen did.

                              The greatest owners allow their people to do 99.9% of the work but have no problem leveraging ownership privilege to help push things over the top
                              Time to build on the win and grow the team from some solid play higher level of play

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                              • #30
                                I got to see first hand with my in laws what happens when you leave a mess for the kids to figure out. It's impossible! Hopefully we do get an owner that cares.

                                Lawyers rarely look past a dollar when "doing what they were asked to do." There are some good ones, but not many...

                                Go Broncos
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