Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Russell Wilson to Denver

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by onanygivensunda View Post
    For those of you yearning to understand how Russell Wilson will likely perform in a Broncos uniform, here is a great article to read. I've copied and pasted a couple of pertinent paragraphs from the article.

    What Does the Seahawks’ QB Situation Say About Their 2022 Expectations? - The Ringer

    Yes, the Seahawks got worse at quarterback this offseason. When healthy, Wilson is one of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL, and I don’t see that changing in the next year. But Russ is also an outlier in that he’s been able to consistently produce like a top quarterback while using an approach that we typically associate with mediocre passers. He regularly abandons clean pockets; he drops his eyes and looks to scramble at the first sign of pressure; and he is pretty much incapable of executing dropback passing concepts because of that discomfort with bodies around him. But Wilson is also supremely accurate: He has an arm that can make any throw, and he’s one of the best playmakers we’ve ever seen. He’s so talented he can get away with breaking the rules in ways that even the best quarterbacks in the NFL can’t. And while that style of play brought Seattle a lot of wins in the past decade, it’s easy to see how calling plays for such a quarterback could be frustrating for an offensive coordinator.

    Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense. That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

    But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.

    The article is garbage and if anyone pays attention to the point they wanted to make a show Wilson does not attack the middle. But what everyone fails to acknowledge is the Hawks don't run many patterns to the middle of the field. There 2 heat maps of the hawk's one shows patterns the other was Wilson's throws. Notice in the patterns very little over the middle of the field The article also makes a lot of assumptions that have been factually proven wrong. In addition, the writer is a notorious Anti Wilson person. If you look at heatmaps of other Hawks QBs they look very close to the same. In PC's book, he says he does not like throwing over the middle due to the higher possibility of tipped balls and turnovers.

    For every article saying one thing, there is another saying another

    https://www.thecoldwire.com/is-russe...-the-afc-west/

    https://worldinsport.com/russell-wilson-is-an-all-time-great-qb/

    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2021/10/7...nesota-vikings


    "Looking at everything above, this data tells me a few things:
    • Russell Wilson’s passing over the middle is phenomenal, as 6 of his 9 touchdowns have come on passes that were either ‘short’ or ‘deep’ middle. So this nonsense that he isn’t efficient or struggles over the middle is bunk.
    Like I said for every article saying one thing there is one saying another. Hawks fans only show the bad ones right now so they can feel better about the move.

    However, a few things to keep in mind.

    Under PC every QB with PC as the HC has been top in sacks and used the middle of the field rarely.

    Also, this article and some hawks fan stance are totally impossible. They would have you believe that Wilson a top QB has succeeded despite not using over half the field, with one of the worse pass blocking olines in the league( avg ranking 26th), in a run-first system. That is no doubt Impossible

    https://www.nfl.com/photos/mind-bogg...p3000001025270
    Last edited by Deandc; 05-17-2022, 12:28 PM.

    Comment


    • At least when I was down on the Broncos last year, it was because we had one of the worst coaching staffs and quarterback rooms in the league.

      It's one thing to want to see how this new coaching staff does. I'm optimistic about them but they are unproven.

      But the doubts about Wilson are ridiculous. He is a top 5 QB.
      Last edited by sra84; 05-17-2022, 01:01 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by sra84 View Post
        At least when I was down on the Broncos last year, it was because we had one of the worst coaching staffs and quarterback rooms in the league.

        It's one thing to want to see how this new coaching staff does is one thing. I'm optimistic about them but they are unproven.

        But the doubts about Wilson are ridiculous. He is a top 5 QB.
        We went from a dinghy to a Yacht and we got people complaining that the fuel will be more expensive 🤷‍♂️
        sigpic

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sra84 View Post
          At least when I was down on the Broncos last year, it was because we had one of the worst coaching staffs and quarterback rooms in the league.

          It's one thing to want to see how this new coaching staff does is one thing. I'm optimistic about them but they are unproven.

          But the doubts about Wilson are ridiculous. He is a top 5 QB.
          I agree but you need to understand most of this is coming from a small but vocal group of Hawks fans who have been reared on PCs defense and run is all that matters. And who clamp onto any perceived issue. Such as holding the ball too long. The reality is his time to throw or being pressured was 2.4 which is good as far as throwing bad as far as pressure as that is way below what is expected of a decent pass blocking oline. PKT = time to throw or pressure, notice 2.4 that is great for Wilson but shows the ooline was bad
          2021 Advanced Quarterback Stats | NFL Metrics | FantasyPros
          GAMES PASSING DEEP BALL PASSING PRESSURE MISC
          RANK PLAYER G CMP ATT PCT YDS Y/A AIR AIR/A 10+ YDS 20+ YDS 30+ YDS 40+ YDS 50+ YDS PKT TIME SK KNCK HRRY BLITZ POOR DROP RZ ATT RTG
          Russell Wilson 14 259 400 65% 3,113 7.8 1,927 4.8 113 45 19 10 7 2.4 33 41 49 113 72 16 45 104

          Comment


          • Originally posted by onanygivensunda View Post
            For those of you yearning to understand how Russell Wilson will likely perform in a Broncos uniform, here is a great article to read. I've copied and pasted a couple of pertinent paragraphs from the article.

            What Does the Seahawks’ QB Situation Say About Their 2022 Expectations? - The Ringer

            Yes, the Seahawks got worse at quarterback this offseason. When healthy, Wilson is one of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL, and I don’t see that changing in the next year. But Russ is also an outlier in that he’s been able to consistently produce like a top quarterback while using an approach that we typically associate with mediocre passers. He regularly abandons clean pockets; he drops his eyes and looks to scramble at the first sign of pressure; and he is pretty much incapable of executing dropback passing concepts because of that discomfort with bodies around him. But Wilson is also supremely accurate: He has an arm that can make any throw, and he’s one of the best playmakers we’ve ever seen. He’s so talented he can get away with breaking the rules in ways that even the best quarterbacks in the NFL can’t. And while that style of play brought Seattle a lot of wins in the past decade, it’s easy to see how calling plays for such a quarterback could be frustrating for an offensive coordinator.

            Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense. That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

            But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.

            There’s more than one way to skin a cat, if that’s how Wilson is productive then that’s how he’s productive. Abandoning clean pockets, dropping too far back, holding the ball too long, running at the first hint of pressure, yes these are all things associated with bad QB play, but the production Wilson has been able to achieve shows that he thrives doing the unorthodox. It’s no different with Mahomes who does all of those same things, he might actually be worse about it than Wilson is.

            I don’t see the infatuation with trying to force Wilson or any player for that matter into something they aren’t. Don’t try to make Wilson a drop back pocket passer, just let the game flow and play ball. Do the things that he does best and reap the rewards.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by beastlyskronk View Post

              There’s more than one way to skin a cat, if that’s how Wilson is productive then that’s how he’s productive. Abandoning clean pockets, dropping too far back, holding the ball too long, running at the first hint of pressure, yes these are all things associated with bad QB play, but the production Wilson has been able to achieve shows that he thrives doing the unorthodox. It’s no different with Mahomes who does all of those same things, he might actually be worse about it than Wilson is.

              I don’t see the infatuation with trying to force Wilson or any player for that matter into something they aren’t. Don’t try to make Wilson a drop back pocket passer, just let the game flow and play ball. Do the things that he does best and reap the rewards.
              Hackett seems like a coach who will build the offense around what Wilson does best and not just run his offense like Pat Shurmur. Hackett while in Jacksonville did that with Bortles who had his best season with Hackett as his OC.
              sigpic

              Comment


              • Originally posted by onanygivensunda View Post
                For those of you yearning to understand how Russell Wilson will likely perform in a Broncos uniform, here is a great article to read. I've copied and pasted a couple of pertinent paragraphs from the article.

                What Does the Seahawks’ QB Situation Say About Their 2022 Expectations? - The Ringer

                Yes, the Seahawks got worse at quarterback this offseason. When healthy, Wilson is one of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL, and I don’t see that changing in the next year. But Russ is also an outlier in that he’s been able to consistently produce like a top quarterback while using an approach that we typically associate with mediocre passers. He regularly abandons clean pockets; he drops his eyes and looks to scramble at the first sign of pressure; and he is pretty much incapable of executing dropback passing concepts because of that discomfort with bodies around him. But Wilson is also supremely accurate: He has an arm that can make any throw, and he’s one of the best playmakers we’ve ever seen. He’s so talented he can get away with breaking the rules in ways that even the best quarterbacks in the NFL can’t. And while that style of play brought Seattle a lot of wins in the past decade, it’s easy to see how calling plays for such a quarterback could be frustrating for an offensive coordinator.

                Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense. That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

                But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.


                I don't know if they ever did share the exact same philosophy though.

                Schematically speaking, Seattle tried to run an offense closer to LaFleur's than McVay's. McVay doesn't use a fullback or extra tight end. He uses an extra receiver as a blocker because he wants to have three wide receivers on the field. Through 4 weeks, only 62% of Seattle's offense was out of 11 personnel. The rams were at that point in 11 82% of the time. Schematically, Seattle's offense got closer to McVay's. By week 9 they were in 3 wide sets 65% of the time. By the end of the season it was 67%. By comparison, the Rams finished the season at 86%.

                As far as targets, Wilson didn't change over the course of the season. His targets were always closer to the boundary than over the middle in general.

                As far as the route tree, almost all of Metcalf and Lockett's routes in week one were vertical or out breaking. The one time Metcalf ran an in breaking route, he caught a touchdown. Locket ran no in breaking routes in week one. The one route he ran in the middle of the field was a touchdown pass. All 3 of Wilson's touchdown passes in week one were in the middle or near the middle of the field. I don't have access to Metcalf or Everett's route tree in week two, but between Swain and Lockett there was 1 in breaking route. It was a completion. Metcalf ran 3 in breaking routes in week three, and Wilson threw completions to him on all 3.

                I'm not seeing the metric evidence that Seattle had to change their offense from Sean McVay's to something else as the season progressed. They may have changed the offense before the regular season started, and that may or may not have had something to do with Russell Wilson, but it's hard to tell if he's capable of running a true "Sean McVay" offense if he's not in one.

                Me personally, I think the statement about being the antithesis of a system quarterback is ambiguous at best. What does that actually mean? Coaches typically adjust to their quarterbacks. Jared Goff must not be a system quarterback either, because he couldn't succeed in the "system" after Fangio figured out a way to defend it. That's why McVay went out and got Matt Stafford.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                  I don't know if they ever did share the exact same philosophy though.

                  Schematically speaking, Seattle tried to run an offense closer to LaFleur's than McVay's. McVay doesn't use a fullback or extra tight end. He uses an extra receiver as a blocker because he wants to have three wide receivers on the field. Through 4 weeks, only 62% of Seattle's offense was out of 11 personnel. The rams were at that point in 11 82% of the time. Schematically, Seattle's offense got closer to McVay's. By week 9 they were in 3 wide sets 65% of the time. By the end of the season it was 67%. By comparison, the Rams finished the season at 86%.

                  As far as targets, Wilson didn't change over the course of the season. His targets were always closer to the boundary than over the middle in general.

                  As far as the route tree, almost all of Metcalf and Lockett's routes in week one were vertical or out breaking. The one time Metcalf ran an in breaking route, he caught a touchdown. Locket ran no in breaking routes in week one. The one route he ran in the middle of the field was a touchdown pass. All 3 of Wilson's touchdown passes in week one were in the middle or near the middle of the field. I don't have access to Metcalf or Everett's route tree in week two, but between Swain and Lockett there was 1 in breaking route. It was a completion. Metcalf ran 3 in breaking routes in week three, and Wilson threw completions to him on all 3.

                  I'm not seeing the metric evidence that Seattle had to change their offense from Sean McVay's to something else as the season progressed. They may have changed the offense before the regular season started, and that may or may not have had something to do with Russell Wilson, but it's hard to tell if he's capable of running a true "Sean McVay" offense if he's not in one.

                  Me personally, I think the statement about being the antithesis of a system quarterback is ambiguous at best. What does that actually mean? Coaches typically adjust to their quarterbacks. Jared Goff must not be a system quarterback either, because he couldn't succeed in the "system" after Fangio figured out a way to defend it. That's why McVay went out and got Matt Stafford.
                  Really? Based on what? He comes from the Sean McVay coaching tree? You’re reaching. Wilson was in Sean McVay style offense he just couldn’t run it or refused to.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Locutus View Post

                    Really? Based on what? He comes from the Sean McVay coaching tree? You’re reaching. Wilson was in Sean McVay style offense he just couldn’t run it or refused to.
                    Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, and Matt LeFleur all come from the same tree, and run differing iterations of the offense. Personnel is a major reason why. The author of the article I quoted stated that the offense changed from McVay's offense to "Russell Wilson Offense", whatever the hell that is, over the course of the season. Every metric I could find from the beginning of the season to the end of the season does not support that claim.

                    This is a summation of what you quoted.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                      I don't know if they ever did share the exact same philosophy though.

                      Schematically speaking, Seattle tried to run an offense closer to LaFleur's than McVay's. McVay doesn't use a fullback or extra tight end. He uses an extra receiver as a blocker because he wants to have three wide receivers on the field. Through 4 weeks, only 62% of Seattle's offense was out of 11 personnel. The rams were at that point in 11 82% of the time. Schematically, Seattle's offense got closer to McVay's. By week 9 they were in 3 wide sets 65% of the time. By the end of the season it was 67%. By comparison, the Rams finished the season at 86%.

                      As far as targets, Wilson didn't change over the course of the season. His targets were always closer to the boundary than over the middle in general.

                      As far as the route tree, almost all of Metcalf and Lockett's routes in week one were vertical or out breaking. The one time Metcalf ran an in breaking route, he caught a touchdown. Locket ran no in breaking routes in week one. The one route he ran in the middle of the field was a touchdown pass. All 3 of Wilson's touchdown passes in week one were in the middle or near the middle of the field. I don't have access to Metcalf or Everett's route tree in week two, but between Swain and Lockett there was 1 in breaking route. It was a completion. Metcalf ran 3 in breaking routes in week three, and Wilson threw completions to him on all 3.

                      I'm not seeing the metric evidence that Seattle had to change their offense from Sean McVay's to something else as the season progressed. They may have changed the offense before the regular season started, and that may or may not have had something to do with Russell Wilson, but it's hard to tell if he's capable of running a true "Sean McVay" offense if he's not in one.

                      Me personally, I think the statement about being the antithesis of a system quarterback is ambiguous at best. What does that actually mean? Coaches typically adjust to their quarterbacks. Jared Goff must not be a system quarterback either, because he couldn't succeed in the "system" after Fangio figured out a way to defend it. That's why McVay went out and got Matt Stafford.
                      Exactly not to motion McVay's offense revolves around motion. Seattle went form top 10 in motion during weeks 1-3 to down to bottom week 4-14 and then back up for 16-17. They never ran Mcvay's offense. What they ran was PCs offense. Again and in addition, if you look at heat maps of the route run they did not run much in the middle and never have under PC even back before Wilson and back to his days in NE. WHy go to PCs book he doe snot like throwing over the middle to him it's too risky. A system QB is someone that only succeeds in a specific system. A great QB can succeed in any system, but as pointed out most HC will adapt to those great QBs. TB is an example. the first 2-3 games of Brady in TB were awful. Then Brady and the HC talked and they changed the system. Wilson played in PCs system and played well for a long time. Until lit became obvious that the system was not working. Then he wanted to make changes, changes that worked until 1 game, and then PC reverted back to the same old same old.

                      Wilson was throwing the ball only 28 times a game last year that is exactly what PC wants. The fact they did not run a lot of plays over the middle is on PC and the OC since we know when they do Wilson was killing it.




                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by sra84 View Post
                        At least when I was down on the Broncos last year, it was because we had one of the worst coaching staffs and quarterback rooms in the league.

                        It's one thing to want to see how this new coaching staff does. I'm optimistic about them but they are unproven.

                        But the doubts about Wilson are ridiculous. He is a top 5 QB.
                        He’s not top 5. Top 10 for sure though.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                          Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, and Matt LeFleur all come from the same tree, and run differing iterations of the offense. Personnel is a major reason why. The author of the article I quoted stated that the offense changed from McVay's offense to "Russell Wilson Offense", whatever the hell that is, over the course of the season. Every metric I could find from the beginning of the season to the end of the season does not support that claim.

                          This is a summation of what you quoted.
                          The “Russell Wilson offense “ is referring to RW doing his own thing and not running Shane Waldrons offense. It says in the article that they brought Shane Waldron in to install a version of Sean McVays offense.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Spice 1 View Post

                            Sean McVay, Kyle Shanahan, and Matt LeFleur all come from the same tree, and run differing iterations of the offense. Personnel is a major reason why. The author of the article I quoted stated that the offense changed from McVay's offense to "Russell Wilson Offense", whatever the hell that is, over the course of the season. Every metric I could find from the beginning of the season to the end of the season does not support that claim.

                            This is a summation of what you quoted.
                            And their ln lies the problem of the article

                            Seattle was top 10 in motion weeks 1-5

                            Wilson had 10 tds 0 ints, 77% complt, 1200 yards

                            Then Wilson gets hurt and in week 6 they move to the bottom 10 in motion. Week 7 bottom 10, week 8 bottom 10. Then Wilson is back in week 9 and guesses what still bottom 10. this goes on through week 14. Then week 15 motion back top 10 and Wilson is killing it again.

                            The offense did not change for Wilson it changed when Wilson got hurt and never came back till the last 3 games.

                            Motion is a staple of the Mcvay offense.

                            When the motion was there Wilson played within the offense and thrived. But the motion went away after he got hurt and did not return till the end.

                            That is why the article you posted is crap it does not match the actual facts

                            Now, why did it change I point to 2 things?

                            The defense is playing like crap giving up the most 5-minute+ drives. PC coming out and saying we need to run more to help the defense.

                            The problem is it will not matter what system you try to use if the defense is struggling or you are not running enough PC will always reign it in.

                            That article showed one picture I posted 3 that show the real story
                            Last edited by Deandc; 05-18-2022, 11:44 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by onanygivensunda View Post
                              For those of you yearning to understand how Russell Wilson will likely perform in a Broncos uniform, here is a great article to read. I've copied and pasted a couple of pertinent paragraphs from the article.

                              What Does the Seahawks’ QB Situation Say About Their 2022 Expectations? - The Ringer

                              Yes, the Seahawks got worse at quarterback this offseason. When healthy, Wilson is one of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL, and I don’t see that changing in the next year. But Russ is also an outlier in that he’s been able to consistently produce like a top quarterback while using an approach that we typically associate with mediocre passers. He regularly abandons clean pockets; he drops his eyes and looks to scramble at the first sign of pressure; and he is pretty much incapable of executing dropback passing concepts because of that discomfort with bodies around him. But Wilson is also supremely accurate: He has an arm that can make any throw, and he’s one of the best playmakers we’ve ever seen. He’s so talented he can get away with breaking the rules in ways that even the best quarterbacks in the NFL can’t. And while that style of play brought Seattle a lot of wins in the past decade, it’s easy to see how calling plays for such a quarterback could be frustrating for an offensive coordinator.

                              Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense. That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

                              But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.

                              Based on these paragraphs, people around here owe Carroll and his offensive coaches an apology.
                              My Opinion isn’t determined by what the Popular Opinion is. Sometimes I agree with the Majority, Sometimes I Don’t. If My Opinion is Different than Yours, I have to Ask One Question:
                              You Mad Bro?
                              Don’t Be A Mean Girl

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Deandc View Post

                                And there ln lies the of the article

                                Seattle was top 10 in motion weeks 1-5

                                Wilson had 10 tds o ints, 77% complt, 1200 yards

                                Then Wilson gets hurt and week 6 we move to the bottom 10 in motion. Week 7 bottom 10, week 8 bottom 10. Then Wilson is back in week 9 and guesses what still bottom 10. this goes on through week 14. Then week 15 motion back top 10 and Wilson is killing it again.

                                The offense did not change for Wilson it changed when Wilson got hurt and never came back till the last 3 games.

                                Motion is a staple of the Mcvay offense.

                                When the motion was there Wilson played within the offense and thrived. But the motion went away after he got hurt and did not return till the end.

                                That is why the article you posted is crap it doe snot match the actual facts

                                Now, why did it change I point to 2 things?

                                The defense is playing like crap giving up the most 5-minute+ drives. PC coming out and saying we need to run more to help the defense.

                                The problem is it will not matter what system you try to use if the defense is struggling or you are not running enough PC will always reign it in.

                                That article showed one picture I posted 3 that show the real story
                                Could be. As a Broncos fan, I honestly wouldn't know how much of it has to do with Carroll. I know he's always been a top tier BSer though.
                                Last edited by Peanut; 05-18-2022, 12:11 AM. Reason: Deleted word in quote

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X