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DP: Late-season injuries prove that Tim Tebow can't make a living as a run-first qb

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  • Urbs
    replied
    Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    he got beat up running it before that.......

    between running the ball and sacks and hits in the pocket he is getting hit almost 50% of the snaps, come on now be realistic. That is NOT sustainable.
    Wow tebow has been injured 3 times his whole college and nfl career. One time from running it and twice in the pocket. So 66.33% of the time was from he pocket. When he runs he can brace for hits and take less of a beating compared to being hit in the pocket. As he gets older yes he obviously will need to run less, but he is built to take hits while running for now.

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  • Pistachia
    replied
    Originally posted by draco193 View Post
    Something I've always wondered about the argument that Tim can't keep running: People always want a primary back, someone to take those 20 carries a game. Why would we expect them to be able to do that, but not expect Tim to take 10-12 a game?
    QBs are more sensitive to injury. A RB can hurt his hand, or his shoulder and still do his job; an upper body injury is devastating to a QB's accuracy.

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  • CoryWinget81
    replied
    Originally posted by Jay3 View Post
    Which I think is a given, for most people. Tebow won't be playing QB in this league for long if this season was his ceiling as a passer.
    And even I don't think he's hit his ceiling as a passer.

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  • Jay3
    replied
    Originally posted by tat2matt View Post
    This is very good in theory, but this hinges solely on Tebow's ability to improve his basic QB play this off-season.
    Which I think is a given, for most people. Tebow won't be playing QB in this league for long if this season was his ceiling as a passer.

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  • CoryWinget81
    replied
    There's no sustainability for running QBs in the NFL.

    You can lie to yourself all you want and say that this is irrelevant because "Tebow got hurt in the pocket", but he got beat up outside of the pocket all year. There were multiple reports and people that were reporters in the locker room saying that Tebow had his arm and shoulder wrapped and iced at other times late in the season.

    Jay3 is about the closest to right. There should be no designed runs. Designed run means "its up to you" and we all know Tebow would try and run through a brick wall. Running as a secondary option is probably for the best.

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  • tat2matt
    replied
    Originally posted by Jay3 View Post
    I think Tebow's got to get that down a bit, especially the designed runs up the middle called from the sidelines from McCoy.

    This is key: McCoy needs to install more of an audible system that is keyed to the blocking and formation, the defense Tebow sees. Allow Tebow the ability to audible into a play where he runs it (or has that option). That way, every run by Tebow can be expended on a play he perceives as very advantageous and not likely to be hit as hard. You should get maximum "keep 'em honest" out of every Tebow run. None of his runs should be expended on plays where "Uh, this isn't going to get much, but Coach McCoy called it, so here goes." The wear and tear on the quarterback is not worth on a play where the defense is not necessarily napping.

    If you do that, it becomes a force multiplier, because every time the defense is worried if they don't honor it, he'll do it. Save them up for those situations where they don't honor it.
    This is very good in theory, but this hinges solely on Tebow's ability to improve his basic QB play this off-season. I am hopeful that having the entire offseason to work on these things in specific order with McCoy will result in marked progress. The problem with complicating the play-calling is that Tebow had far too many series this season where he looked uncomfortable, out of his element, and sometimes just plain lost on some very basic play calls. It was widely known that they had "dumbed down" the playbook to allow for him to be comfortable in the scheme. If he's having trouble reading defenses and progressions and doing some of the basic things an NFL QB should be able to do, further complicating the process with audibles based on his ability to read at the line and adjust immediately after the snap is asking for trouble.

    You're right in that the play-calling should be more varied and complex, but until Tebow shows that he has mastered the basics, it will have to stay simplified. I think that if he really (REALLY) works on solidifying his mechanics before camp, he can focus more on mastering the playbook in camp. That would be a great help in moving the entire offense forward, and in the end, it will lessen the beating his body takes in games.

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  • Jay3
    replied
    Originally posted by Justblaze2729 View Post
    Cam newton doesnt try to bulldoze through everybody for extra yards.
    He actually does. He's quite punishing. He's learning, like Tebow, not to waste any wear and tear on his body. But he flat run through that line if he needs to.

    I was as impressed as I could be with him last year at Auburn. For a short while (a few weeks) my mind was reeling and thinking "Is is just that coaches needed to call it? Are there a lot of people that could do this if called upon?" As the season wore on, I became convinced Newton was very, very special in all phases. His rookie season in the NFL has confirmed that for me.

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  • samparnell
    replied
    Wear and Tear

    He averaged about ten rushing attempts per game. That includes scrambles on called pass plays.

    I think ten rushing attempts per game on called run plays should be the maximum. Five or six would be better in order to include Double Option from direct snap/shotgun formations as a threat for which D must account.

    IMO the Broncos should emphasize the power run game with assignment blocking more, with Option 20-30% of the run plays.

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  • tzinc
    replied
    He got injured in the pocket on a sack.

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  • Justblaze2729
    replied
    Originally posted by Roddoliver View Post
    Tebow won't stop running. His injuries happened in the pocket. He was hit while trying to throw the ball. Tebow: 122 rushing attempts. Cam Newton: 126 rushing attempts. And no one says Newton should stop running... This "run, don't run" thing will not be an issue if the passing yards increase. Such discussion happens because the Broncos had the fewest passing attempts and a running QB that defies the conventional ways. Once Tebow starts missing games because of his running ability, he will adapt like every mobile QB that gets older. But since he got hurt while playing like a pocket passer, I see no reason to change his style. The passing attempts must go up. Let him throw on 1st down. The yards through the air must improve, the completion percentage must improve. If the passing game gets better, everyone will stop worryng about how many rushing attempts Tebow has.
    Cam newton doesnt try to bulldoze through everybody for extra yards.

    Which is why tim needs to improve his passing so he wont have the mindset that he needs to work for every single yard instead of just sliding

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  • Jay3
    replied
    In the end, I think there should be almost no designed runs for Tebow (when he's at full development). The most potent use of his running ability to is to call in from the sideline an empty backfield pass play, and tell him "See if it's there, or get it yourself if you can."

    If you put it in his hands, he's very instinctive for picking up first downs by either run/pass. It's actually the same skill set he uses around the goal line, but put in that same mentality for the first down sticks. It has an amazing effect on the offense if you treat every 3rd down like a goal line situation.

    They're doing some of that now, a lot of that -- but if the passing gets better, it will really all start to work together. They need to design plays with that in mind -- as in, "in order for them to stop this pass play, they'd have to give up the scramble for the first down." You sort of build things off of hard choices.

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  • Jay3
    replied
    By my rough math, Cam Newton averaged about 8 carries a game this season, for 5.6 yards a carry. Tim Tebow averaged just under 10 carries a game this season, for 5.4 yards a carry.

    Cam's probably in the right ballpark, though less might be nice. I think 8 or 10 should be the upward bounds on the high games, for an average of maybe 6.5 or so.

    I think Tebow's got to get that down a bit, especially the designed runs up the middle called from the sidelines from McCoy.

    This is key: McCoy needs to install more of an audible system that is keyed to the blocking and formation, the defense Tebow sees. Allow Tebow the ability to audible into a play where he runs it (or has that option). That way, every run by Tebow can be expended on a play he perceives as very advantageous and not likely to be hit as hard. You should get maximum "keep 'em honest" out of every Tebow run. None of his runs should be expended on plays where "Uh, this isn't going to get much, but Coach McCoy called it, so here goes." The wear and tear on the quarterback is not worth on a play where the defense is not necessarily napping.

    If you do that, it becomes a force multiplier, because every time the defense is worried if they don't honor it, he'll do it. Save them up for those situations where they don't honor it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jay3
    replied
    Injury isn't the issue. It's wear and tear. He can't expend all his energy running, take a pounding, and still throw it with the pinpoint accuracy he needs.

    He has to choose his spots. About 8 times a game.

    I don't know why we keep making this as hard as we can. It seems like it keeps getting explored because it's yet one more way to explain away Tebow's winning ways without crediting his future.

    But the basic facts, if everybody's honest (pro-Tebow and anti-Tebow) are not really disputable. Like Cam Newton, Tebow will always make it hard on defenses with his ability to run. He will always pick up first downs with his feet. He will always have a tendency to score touchdowns. But he will not be able to carry it on a designed run 10 times a game like some running back.

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  • kingpins9
    replied
    Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    yea, cause getting hit on his 100+ carries had nothing to do with him being hurt...........

    how many seasons did Vick go out hurt? How about Randall cunningham?
    It didn't. Go actually watch the play he was "injured" on. There's a difference between getting bruised in routine football plays and actually being injured.

    Comparing Tebow to Vick or Cunningham is a non-starter. Tebow is much, much tougher than either of those guys. Eyesight proves it.
    Last edited by kingpins9; 01-28-2012, 09:06 AM.

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  • gobronx6215
    replied
    Originally posted by shawinkerpoppin View Post
    I wouldnt call it a double standard. I dont min him running. I mind him taking unecesary shots. Running around and then getting hit for a loss or next to no gain is pretty uncesary. If he can get the ball out in like 3 seconds fine. Sometimes it takes a little longer. But he cant consistently do that right now. I seen it a few times but not often. He has to hit the open guy throw someone open or dump it off vs running around all over the place.
    I agree! You still need to have players run those underneath routes and dump offs if you can complete them or not.

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