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Kiszla: Broncos living in past with Tim Tebow

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  • Key West Bronc
    replied
    Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
    maybe one of the reasons people talk so much about Tebow's intangibles is because there isn't much to talk about concerning his tangibles. What evidence of these incredible, far superior intangibles did you see in the last 5 games of the season?
    This......people are delusional if they think the heavens will align next season, the same way they did this season. It's more likely the tangibles lose those games next season.

    Leave a comment:


  • broncos SB2010
    replied
    Originally posted by demosthenes9 View Post
    Good lord man. Of course those traits exist in everybody. The very question is the LEVEL of those traits and how they interact.

    Any "expert" analyst (current players and coaches, former players and coaches, announcers, etc) have all said much the same thing about Tebow in this regard, they say that he is just different.

    These are guys who know most the players in the league and those from the past.

    Best analogy I can come up with right now would be supermodels. Just about everyone on the planet has 2 eyes, 1 nose, 1 mouth, 2 cheekbones, 1 chin, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 waistline, yada, yada, yada.

    Supermodels have the same "things", but it's the exact proportions/symmetry that set them apart.
    maybe one of the reasons people talk so much about Tebow's intangibles is because there isn't much to talk about concerning his tangibles. What evidence of these incredible, far superior intangibles did you see in the last 5 games of the season?

    Leave a comment:


  • demosthenes9
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    I disagree.

    Work ethic, leadership, drive.

    These are words that analysts uses all the time about the players in the NFL. I think Tebow's enthusiastic displays of those traits are rare, but I don't think the traits themselves are.

    I also think that it's possible that some feel Tebow has a little more of these traits than the typical quarterback, which is possible.

    But no, I don't think he's by any stretch unique in his desire to win or his ability instill that in others.

    Good lord man. Of course those traits exist in everybody. The very question is the LEVEL of those traits and how they interact.

    Any "expert" analyst (current players and coaches, former players and coaches, announcers, etc) have all said much the same thing about Tebow in this regard, they say that he is just different.

    These are guys who know most the players in the league and those from the past.

    Best analogy I can come up with right now would be supermodels. Just about everyone on the planet has 2 eyes, 1 nose, 1 mouth, 2 cheekbones, 1 chin, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 waistline, yada, yada, yada.

    Supermodels have the same "things", but it's the exact proportions/symmetry that set them apart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by demosthenes9 View Post
    Actually, they are, especially at the levels that Tebow has. Darned near any "expert" you ask will tell you that one. Every coach that I have ever heard comment on his intangibles says that he is off the chart and like no one they have ever seen.

    If you will, it's not just that he has an overabundance of X, Y, or Z (though he does have that as well). It's how they work in combination.

    For example, a person can have the greatest belief in themselves, that they will always win, but usually, those people are extremely self centered. Take someone like Keyshawn or Terrell Owens.

    Then you might have someone who is extremely unselfish, but they don't have the same drive.

    With Tebow, his intangibles all feed into one another and it has a multiplier effect. He is the eternal optimist who believes that they always have a chance. He belief in himsef is strong, as is his belief in his team mates. His consideration and caring for his team mates helps to motivate both them and him.

    Like it or not, it actually is a rather rare combination.
    I disagree.

    Work ethic, leadership, drive.

    These are words that analysts uses all the time about the players in the NFL. I think Tebow's enthusiastic displays of those traits are rare, but I don't think the traits themselves are.

    I also think that it's possible that some feel Tebow has a little more of these traits than the typical quarterback, which is possible.

    But no, I don't think he's by any stretch unique in his desire to win or his ability instill that in others.

    Leave a comment:


  • demosthenes9
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    No, I'm saying that those qualities aren't rare at the NFL level.
    Actually, they are, especially at the levels that Tebow has. Darned near any "expert" you ask will tell you that one. Every coach that I have ever heard comment on his intangibles says that he is off the chart and like no one they have ever seen.

    If you will, it's not just that he has an overabundance of X, Y, or Z (though he does have that as well). It's how they work in combination.

    For example, a person can have the greatest belief in themselves, that they will always win, but usually, those people are extremely self centered. Take someone like Keyshawn or Terrell Owens.

    Then you might have someone who is extremely unselfish, but they don't have the same drive.

    With Tebow, his intangibles all feed into one another and it has a multiplier effect. He is the eternal optimist who believes that they always have a chance. He belief in himsef is strong, as is his belief in his team mates. His consideration and caring for his team mates helps to motivate both them and him.

    Like it or not, it actually is a rather rare combination.

    Leave a comment:


  • roperdoug
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoDonko View Post
    I think I pretty much agree with Alastor regarding Tebow's future prospects. He's far too inconsistent as a passer, and unless that improves, he won't last long as a starter in the NFL. However, he does have an enormously high ceiling.

    That being said, I think where I disagree is in how I'd classify Tebow's production thus far. Alastor feels that he has not produced to first round pick standards, and he was a bad quarterback this season. I think that's downright inaccurate. By statistical measures, he was below average -- there's no denying that.

    But he has now started 16 games in his NFL career. He has won 9 of them, including a playoff game in which he threw for over 300 yards against the #1 rated defense in the NFL. He has done this with a team that was 6-21 in its previous 27 games under Kyle Orton, who himself is NOT a bad starting quarterback. He has done it with two second-year starting WRs, the second-youngest OL in the NFL, and an injury-riddled stable of running backs. And he has done it after twice being asked to step into a disastrous season and turn lemons into lemonade.

    I think he's produced far more than your average 2nd-year first round quarterback. And I think that the desire to rate Tebow's season statistically is clearly flawed. By most, if not all, statistical measures, Kyle Orton was a better quarterback than Tebow this season. And yet, with the same team, Orton lost 4 regular season games in 5 starts. Tebow lost 4 regular season games in 11 starts.

    We can all agree that Tebow is a fairly unique quarterback. He doesn't play the game the way Kyle Orton did. Everything about our team is different with him behind center. For that reason, it doesn't make sense to me to try to compare such different players statistically. And this is not limited to Orton -- comparing Tebow to most other quarterbacks based on statistics simply doesn't work. We're talking apples and oranges. We don't ask Tebow to do what Philip Rivers does, and San Diego doesn't ask Philip Rivers to do what Tebow does. You could argue that we wish Tebow could simply do what Philip Rivers does, but he doesn't. It's not that he fails at doing what Rivers does: it's that he does something entirely different.

    Ultimately, for that reason, you need to judge him on wins and losses. He's throwing the fewest passes per game of any quarterback; he's running the most of any quarterback. Comparing him statistically to a guy that throws it 35 times a game and does not ever attempt a designed run is illogical.
    Bravo! If I could give out CP's I'd send you one. Stereotyping a quarterback is like stereotyping a politician. We know what a good politician should be like but not many fit the profile. We know what a good NFL quarterback should be like but not all are. Not all politicians that win elections are good politicians. Not all quarterback that win games arre good quarterbacks. Who can you say is a model NFL Quarterback by our standards?

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Mk2_Tebow View Post
    I want to understand what you are saying before I move on.

    Your premise is that there is no such thing as anyone exhibiting intangible qualities (such as leadership) that help a team gel together and start winning games mianly because ALL players want to win.
    No, I'm saying that those qualities aren't rare at the NFL level.

    I want you to keep in mind that Bailey, Dawkins, Miller, Thomas are all on record saying tebow DID do that.
    They said the same thing of Orton. I'm not arguing that Tebow's competitive. I'm arguing that they're all competitive at that level.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mk2_Tebow
    replied
    Originally posted by CoryWinget81 View Post
    Of course there is, but said player exhibiting intangible qualities also has to exhibit TANGIBLE qualities. It's real hard to get behind 10/22 141yds when you're losing.
    No argument from me. If The Broncos had gone 2-11 during the 13 games Tebow started , this thread would not exsist and we would not be talking about it.

    But the truth is that they didn't go 2-11 they went 8-5 and won a playoff game so we are discussing it.

    His overall production for his first 16 games is comparable to all other currently starting QBs in the NFL in their first 16 starts (using total yards , combining rushing and passing).
    Last edited by Mk2_Tebow; 02-05-2012, 09:54 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • CoryWinget81
    replied
    Originally posted by Mk2_Tebow View Post
    I want to understand what you are saying before I move on.

    Your premise is that there is no such thing as anyone exhibiting intangible qualities (such as leadership) that help a team gel together and start winning games mianly because ALL players want to win.

    If that is the case then we will agree to disagree at this point.

    I want you to keep in mind that Bailey, Dawkins, Miller, Thomas are all on record saying tebow DID do that.
    Of course there is, but said player exhibiting intangible qualities also has to exhibit TANGIBLE qualities. It's real hard to get behind 10/22 141yds when you're losing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mk2_Tebow
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    Fair enough. Let me rephrase:

    "All of them help instill a winning culture. If they don't, they're not here long. There are - at the absolute MOST - 96 quarterbacks in the NFL at any given time. Out of all the millions of young men that want to be quarterbacks around the world. If they're not creating a winning culture, they're not in the NFL."
    I want to understand what you are saying before I move on.

    Your premise is that there is no such thing as anyone exhibiting intangible qualities (such as leadership) that help a team gel together and start winning games mianly because ALL players want to win.

    If that is the case then we will agree to disagree at this point.

    I want you to keep in mind that Bailey, Dawkins, Miller, Thomas are all on record saying tebow DID do that.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoDonko
    replied
    I think I pretty much agree with Alastor regarding Tebow's future prospects. He's far too inconsistent as a passer, and unless that improves, he won't last long as a starter in the NFL. However, he does have an enormously high ceiling.

    That being said, I think where I disagree is in how I'd classify Tebow's production thus far. Alastor feels that he has not produced to first round pick standards, and he was a bad quarterback this season. I think that's downright inaccurate. By statistical measures, he was below average -- there's no denying that.

    But he has now started 16 games in his NFL career. He has won 9 of them, including a playoff game in which he threw for over 300 yards against the #1 rated defense in the NFL. He has done this with a team that was 6-21 in its previous 27 games under Kyle Orton, who himself is NOT a bad starting quarterback. He has done it with two second-year starting WRs, the second-youngest OL in the NFL, and an injury-riddled stable of running backs. And he has done it after twice being asked to step into a disastrous season and turn lemons into lemonade.

    I think he's produced far more than your average 2nd-year first round quarterback. And I think that the desire to rate Tebow's season statistically is clearly flawed. By most, if not all, statistical measures, Kyle Orton was a better quarterback than Tebow this season. And yet, with the same team, Orton lost 4 regular season games in 5 starts. Tebow lost 4 regular season games in 11 starts.

    We can all agree that Tebow is a fairly unique quarterback. He doesn't play the game the way Kyle Orton did. Everything about our team is different with him behind center. For that reason, it doesn't make sense to me to try to compare such different players statistically. And this is not limited to Orton -- comparing Tebow to most other quarterbacks based on statistics simply doesn't work. We're talking apples and oranges. We don't ask Tebow to do what Philip Rivers does, and San Diego doesn't ask Philip Rivers to do what Tebow does. You could argue that we wish Tebow could simply do what Philip Rivers does, but he doesn't. It's not that he fails at doing what Rivers does: it's that he does something entirely different.

    Ultimately, for that reason, you need to judge him on wins and losses. He's throwing the fewest passes per game of any quarterback; he's running the most of any quarterback. Comparing him statistically to a guy that throws it 35 times a game and does not ever attempt a designed run is illogical.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Mk2_Tebow View Post
    I never stated " Tebow wants to win"

    I said he helped instill a winning culture .

    He did
    Fair enough. Let me rephrase:

    "All of them help instill a winning culture. If they don't, they're not here long. There are - at the absolute MOST - 96 quarterbacks in the NFL at any given time. Out of all the millions of young men that want to be quarterbacks around the world. If they're not creating a winning culture, they're not in the NFL."

    Leave a comment:


  • roperdoug
    replied
    Originally posted by Mk2_Tebow View Post
    Alastor I asked you this before in the thread but I think you missed it.

    Here are my opinions boiled down :

    Tebow needs to improve his passing game
    When and if he improves he will be a tremendous weapon
    He has had great moments and some have been record setting ones , he has helped instill a winning culture in the organization once again
    It is ludicrous to throw something like that away in a trade for anything other than more than what was spent on him


    Tell me where you disagree
    They ALL need to develop in the passing game. The receivers need to get free, the O line needs to protect the Quarterback and Tim needs to read the defense and locate his open receivers and pass more accurately. The running game needs more work...goes back to the O line. Who else is efficient in running through the line other than McGahee and Tebow.
    We haven't been saying much in these threads concerning the defense though. They need to work on consistency also.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mk2_Tebow
    replied
    Originally posted by Alastor View Post
    Nah, I didn't miss it. I answered you. Click here.
    I never stated " Tebow wants to win"

    I said he helped instill a winning culture .

    He did

    Leave a comment:


  • Alastor
    replied
    Originally posted by Mk2_Tebow View Post
    Alastor I asked you this before in the thread but I think you missed it.
    Nah, I didn't miss it. I answered you. Click here.

    Leave a comment:

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