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Broncos are not drafting a DT in 1st round

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  • #91
    Originally posted by BroncoSexyDaddy View Post
    I take it at face value.If he said it,i believe it.Its obvious EFX are confortable with who we have at DT,its not a desperate need at the moment.

    I know most of the fans want a DT,and its a very popular pick, but we have Marcus Thomas on the waiting list,we just signed Bannan,Vickerson and Warren are coming back as starters, and Garland is returning.So why is it a pressing need? It looks like it would be even more depth at the position,how much do we need there.

    I don't think it will be DT know matter who is available when we pick at #25.I think it will be a LB,DE,RB,TE,CB or trade down.
    Thomas- rotational player.
    Bannan- rotational player.
    Vickerson- coming off injury.
    Warren- coming off injury.
    Garland- Better fit at DE.

    We have no long-term answers at DT.

    I think it will be DE, DT, CB, or RB at 25 should we stay there.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Freyaka View Post
      I think history combined with what he says indicates we won't take one.
      EFX have had one draft, not much history

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      • #93
        Originally posted by SBboundBRONCOS View Post
        HISTORY????

        one year of drafting is not indicative of HISTORY! PERIOD because if thats the case were not drafting OL, QB, RB, DL, S, WR, or any position other than a pass rushing LB in the first round

        i mean if were basing this on history
        We haven't drafted a DT in the 1st round since 1997 Trevor Pryce,i hope that's enough history for you.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by LarryDean View Post
          I know the chances of doubling up the DT position using any of the first three picks are slim and there is a chance that the Broncos are not going to draft a DT with the 1st (25)Here's my train of thought on whatever they decide to do even though it don't necessarily match my mock ...

          Whatever position or prospect they decide to draft particularly these positions DL,CB,RB ... I want them to draft it to the point where during next years draft the ideal of having a need at that position is an after thought for years to come ....

          This can be achieved by drafting a couple different players or by just drafting the right ones and I think the Broncos have an opportunity to do just that ...

          If the Broncos have a chance to draft a couple of the top defensive tackle prospects whoever you think they mite be in picks 1-3.

          I think that would phenomenal ...

          They'll have a chance at drafting one of the better looking RB prospects in Martin,Miller and also someone at the DT position with the second round pick...If CB Kirkpatrick is there the same can be said about him as well CB,DT or CB,RB or DT,DL either way sew them positions up ...So they are not having to revisit them every other year with a day 1 pick or 2 pick ...

          If you do have to draft a position repeatedly in multiple drafts let it be because of the rich getting richer not because of filling a perceived need ..

          The Broncos have tried for years to draft someone to play opposite of Champ only to have to use Free Agency ... The same can be said about the RB position again having to use free agency and wouldn't you know it... the top 3 needs in the opinion of many in this years draft is RB,CB,DT ... Hopefully sooner then later they will finally land a person or 2 at either of them positions ..
          My thoughts exactly. I'm less focused on getting a particular player or a particular position drafted and more about "please, whatever you do, don't waste the damn pick." If they go DT I want it to really make a difference. I'm sick of hearing about it. Ditto at CB or RB or C. If they go RB he better catch passes like flypaper catches flies so he can get on the field on third down and the defense doesn't know what we're going to do, and can pick up the blitz on passing downs so Peyton Manning isn't getting killed. If they can fix two or three spots where we're weak in this draft that's a pretty good result. Even championship teams have one or two places where they're subpar. If DT stays subpar after this draft but it's their only major weakness left, we can probably win a Super Bowl with that or at least get pretty close.

          That's why it baffles me that the pro-DT people aren't in favor of trading up to get a particular player who's can't-miss. If you really want some pocket-crushing dominator at the position then why aren't we trading up to get Poe? At least you know he's huge at 345 pounds, can bench 44 reps and runs the 40 like a much smaller man. That's where the logic of the collapse-the-pocket argument takes you. Maybe you go Brockers at 320 pounds and hope he can develop better upper body strength with a good weightlifting program (he only benched 19 reps). Are we really just going to sit there at #25 and take some 300-pounder with question marks who may or may not pan out but who almost certainly won't be a dominant player at the position? I don't get it.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by BroncoSexyDaddy View Post
            We haven't drafted a DT in the 1st round since 1997 Trevor Pryce,i hope that's enough history for you.
            JDR drafted DT with his first 2 picks last year. Do you think he has any input in the draft?
            sigpic

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            • #96
              Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
              JDR drafted DT with his first 2 picks last year. Do you think he has any input in the draft?
              This is a valid point. I remember when JDR shocked the world and took Alualu.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by InElwayWeTrust View Post
                This is a valid point. I remember when JDR shocked the world and took Alualu.
                Who is a good player
                sigpic
                2013 Adopted Bronco - Duke Ihenacho

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
                  JDR drafted DT with his first 2 picks last year. Do you think he has any input in the draft?
                  They took Gabbert with their first last year
                  What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?
                  I don't know and I don't care

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by JakeNbake View Post
                    Who is a good player
                    Yes he is. JDR knew what he was doing, but it was definitely out of left field when it happened.

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                    • Originally posted by SBboundBRONCOS View Post
                      HISTORY????

                      one year of drafting is not indicative of HISTORY! PERIOD because if thats the case were not drafting OL, QB, RB, DL, S, WR, or any position other than a pass rushing LB in the first round

                      i mean if were basing this on history
                      History goes a lot longer than one year, Fox, Del Rio, Xanders...They didn't enter the league for the first time last year. Not to mention the orginizational history. I mean if your narrowing your history to time spent with the Broncos sure, you are correct. I am not I'm taking a little less narrow-minded view of things.

                      And as BSD pointed out as a team (which has been around a whole lot longer than one year) we haven't taken a DT in the first since Pryce. This year won't break that trend. We will not be taking a DT in the first this year.
                      Last edited by Freyaka; 04-25-2012, 12:42 PM.
                      sigpic

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                      • Originally posted by InElwayWeTrust View Post
                        Yes he is. JDR knew what he was doing, but it was definitely out of left field when it happened.
                        Not if you actually follow the Jags, my brother called it well before it happened.
                        sigpic

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                        • Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
                          JDR drafted DT with his first 2 picks last year. Do you think he has any input in the draft?
                          Honestly,No

                          I think the 1st pick will be EFX decision combined.It will be the right idea if the DTs are an upgrade over what we currently have,but that remains to be seen during the season.We can all speculate and say these guys are great because of what we seen in college.But will it translate to the same play in the nfl,whereas most OL are over 300 pounds and better.Maybe EFX and Del Rio think what we have is better based on what was said by Elway.

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                          • I think they just take the best available player on the board, that means it could be any number of positions, but with D-Line being a strong position of talent in the draft this year, that ups the odds for the Broncos selecting a Defensive Lineman in the first or second round.
                            "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."sigpic

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                            • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post
                              My thoughts exactly. I'm less focused on getting a particular player or a particular position drafted and more about "please, whatever you do, don't waste the damn pick." If they go DT I want it to really make a difference. I'm sick of hearing about it. Ditto at CB or RB or C. If they go RB he better catch passes like flypaper catches flies so he can get on the field on third down and the defense doesn't know what we're going to do, and can pick up the blitz on passing downs so Peyton Manning isn't getting killed. If they can fix two or three spots where we're weak in this draft that's a pretty good result. Even championship teams have one or two places where they're subpar. If DT stays subpar after this draft but it's their only major weakness left, we can probably win a Super Bowl with that or at least get pretty close.

                              That's why it baffles me that the pro-DT people aren't in favor of trading up to get a particular player who's can't-miss. If you really want some pocket-crushing dominator at the position then why aren't we trading up to get Poe? At least you know he's huge at 345 pounds, can bench 44 reps and runs the 40 like a much smaller man. That's where the logic of the collapse-the-pocket argument takes you. Maybe you go Brockers at 320 pounds and hope he can develop better upper body strength with a good weightlifting program (he only benched 19 reps). Are we really just going to sit there at #25 and take some 300-pounder with question marks who may or may not pan out but who almost certainly won't be a dominant player at the position? I don't get it.
                              What baffles me is thinking any player is a can't miss. There is no such thing. It also baffles me why you think that a DT taken at #25 couldn't be a dominate player and you think they are all busts it seems before they even see the field. You also seem to think there are so many other options at 25 of can't miss types that will be dominate from day 1. You seem to think very highly of Poe and think he could be a pocket collapsing DT. He had no production in college playing in a very weak conference. All Poe did was run fast at the combine and bench a lot. There is more to FB than that. He is the worst prospect out of the top DT this season and I think he has bust written all over him. I have them rated:

                              Cox
                              Reyes
                              Brockers
                              Worthy/Thompson
                              Still
                              Martin
                              Chapman
                              Poe

                              Many of us who want a DT don't want one just to get one, it's that we, I do anyway, think that there are very good options at the end of the first round and not so many later in the draft. There also aren't very many players at other positions who are better prospects at #25. All of the really good DBs, LB, WR, OT, and DEs will be gone by then. It's not like there will be a blue chip player available there. According to how the draft looks like it's going to fall Doug Martin and Kendall Reyes look like the 2 best players that wil be available and there aren't that many others even close.
                              sigpic

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                              • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post
                                But there are people who are saying that the DT position is important who also disagree with you, and you're not even beginning to address their points. I am completely sick of hearing this broken record about how important penetrating, pocket-collapsing DTs are. Sure. Fine. Wonderful. I get it. An elite DT or two would be terrific to have and would really help the defense. AND PROVE TO ME YOU'RE ACTUALLY GETTING ANYTHING CLOSE TO THAT CALIBER OF PLAYER AT #25. I have not heard a single argument to the effect that any player likely to be there at #25 is going to be anything better than ordinary against NFL offensive linemen. And in their first year they're going to be well below ordinary. You're not getting the next Ndamukung Suh at #25 unless you're incredibly lucky. Suh went #2 overall, not #25.

                                There are a lot of people on this board who just don't understand why replacing a cagey veteran like Ty Warren at 6'5" and 300 lbs. with, say, a rookie Devon Still at 6'5" and 303 lbs. accomplishes anything. Feed two Subway foot-longs to Warren before the game and you've got the same player. And I'm not the first person to notice the resemblance:



                                If I'm using a first round pick on somebody, I want to get a big upgrade at that position or I've wasted the pick. It's far from obvious that that's happening in the Devon Still scenario.

                                In the Jerel Worthy scenario, we replace Ty Warren at 6'5" and 300 lbs. with a player who's 6'2" and 308 lbs. A little more beef to block the run, 3 fewer inches to block the pass and the kick....And oh by the way, he stumbled to the ground in an agility drill at the Combine -- of all things -- didn't even bench press at the Combine, failed to finish in the top five in any Combine category, and shows an



                                Rotoworld on Jerel Worthy

                                In spite of all that, a ton of mocks have us taking this loser at #25, because, you know, the Planet Theory says that we can't possibly do any better than that.

                                Or we can replace 6'5", 300-lb. Ty Warren with with Kendall Reyes, who's both an inch short and a pound light at 6'4" and 299 lbs. Maybe he'll have a birthday, and get a pinch to grow an inch. Remind me again why this is such a giant upgrade at the position worth spending a first round pick on. Maybe you're just trying to replace aging players with their younger doppelgangers, which needs to happen at some point, but then why wouldn't you also consider doing that at, say, running back, with McGahee on the wrong side of 30? If McGahee gets an ankle mid-season, and Moreno takes a vicious hit from a rolled-up newspaper and needs to go on IR, do you really want to stick some fourth-rounder in there who can't pick up the blitz and gets Peyton Manning blown up?

                                There is a case to be made for going DT in the first round, but that case involves trading up to get maybe the #2 DT on the board rather than the #6 DT on the board, which is what we're more likely to be looking at if we stand pat at #25 unless we get lucky and somebody falls to us. Oddly enough, the exact same people who are the biggest DT boosters on this board are also the people who argue for trading down, because once upon a time Bill Belichick did that and so we have to ape him in every possible way, like bringing in Belichick's brilliant little Batman and videotaper, Josh McBleep, to coach the team. Well, guess what. Sometimes Belichick trades up too...in particular trading up to #13 in the first round to pick Ty Warren, who is "not even average," we hear.

                                So let's say we trade up, just like Bill Beelzebub Belichick does when he drafts DTs, and go hunting for the #2 DT in the draft. Whoops, there is no consensus #2. Do you want workout warrior Dontario Poe, who can bring it in the weight room but not on game day and makes more sense as a nose in someone else's 3-4 anyway? Do you want Michael Brockers, who gets you 322 pounds of athlete on the line (at least it's something of a size upgrade), but for some reason only put up 19 reps at the combine, and is described as having "poor pass-rushing technique"? (By way of comparison, lightweight Kendall Reyes benched 36 reps.) Or do we chase Fletcher Cox, who is slated to go to Carolina at #9 overall in some mocks, and seems to be the closest thing to a consensus #1 DT in this draft class in spite of only weighing 298 pounds?

                                Well, even if none of that dissuades you from chasing these guys up the draft board, trading up will cost you some seashells. Our pick at #25 is worth 720 points by the value chart, and to hurdle the Eagles at #15 (who might take Poe) and possibly Dallas at #14 (some think Brockers might go here if they don't take Mark Barron at SS), we need a package worth about 1150 to trade with the Cardinals at #13, assuming Poe or Brockers haven't already gone to the Seahawks at #12 assuming those are the guys we're targeting. The difference between the Cardinals' pick and our pick is 430 points. We can give them that if we swap first round picks AND give them our second round pick (330 points) AND give them our first 4th-rounder at #13 that we got for Tebow (76 points) AND throw in our pick at #2 in the fifth round (42 points), for a combined value of 448 points.

                                All that for the privilege of having our choice of Poe or Brockers.

                                Of course, if we've jumped up to #13, we might also be able to get David DeCastro and upgrade either G or C, get Dre Kirkpatrick to buttress the cornerback position, put Quinton Coples at DE, take Mark Barron at safety, or grab whoever else good that falls out of the top 12. But no, we live on Planet Theory in theory, so we're sticking with Poe or Brockers or bust, because once you're up that high at unlucky #13, you are compelled to do whatever unlucky thing happens to you at that spot and take whatever the top DT is on the board, come hell or high water....

                                If we actually want some pocket-pushing, space-eating, backfield-penetrating, kick-blocking, pass-deflecting, double-team-commanding DT, that's what we have to do AT A BARE MINIMUM. Trade up with the Cardinals. And even then it's no slam-dunk. Or, we can hope a flying pig soaring over the frozen surface of hell carries one of these guys to us at #25, possibly because our fairy godmother up there thinks we're special.
                                Great post!!! CP Inc!

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