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Broncos are not drafting a DT in 1st round

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  • Originally posted by the0rangecrush View Post
    They took Gabbert with their first last year
    you're right, it was the year before.
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    • Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
      What baffles me is thinking any player is a can't miss. There is no such thing. It also baffles me why you think that a DT taken at #25 couldn't be a dominate player and you think they are all busts it seems before they even see the field. You also seem to think there are so many other options at 25 of can't miss types that will be dominate from day 1. You seem to think very highly of Poe and think he could be a pocket collapsing DT. He had no production in college playing in a very weak conference. All Poe did was run fast at the combine and bench a lot. There is more to FB than that. He is the worst prospect out of the top DT this season and I think he has bust written all over him. I have them rated:

      Cox
      Reyes
      Brockers
      Worthy/Thompson
      Still
      Martin
      Chapman
      Poe

      Many of us who want a DT don't want one just to get one, it's that we, I do anyway, think that there are very good options at the end of the first round and not so many later in the draft. There also aren't very many players at other positions who are better prospects at #25. All of the really good DBs, LB, WR, OT, and DEs will be gone by then. It's not like there will be a blue chip player available there. According to how the draft looks like it's going to fall Doug Martin and Kendall Reyes look like the 2 best players that wil be available and there aren't that many others even close.
      I don't think these guys (Poe or someone else) are can't-miss ore even close, it's the DT lobbyists think they're can't miss or at least talk that way, as if it would be insane not to take a DT or even two in the first two rounds. Then when you point out various things wrong with the actual candidates at DT and point out the bust potential at that position more generally they either ignore you, say you're nitpicking, say that they're not world-beaters but will at least be solid picks, or that they've done studies years ago claiming that the bust potential at DT was less than at other spots, even though I found major holes in that claim for the one study we saw posted on the board this year.

      The main argument for DT is theoretical -- wouldn't it be great in theory if we could have a behemoth at DT choking opposing QBs on a regular basis and snuffing out running plays before they get started? Well sure. Except what actual player likely to be available at #25 is going to be capable of that? Why do they think that getting some guy weighing barely 300 pounds is going to be a difference-maker at DT against guards and tackles outweighing him by 20 pounds? The case falls apart when you try to put nuts and bolts to it.

      If you want to turn the abstract theory -- or should that be Planet Theory -- into concrete reality, the closest DT you're going to get with the physical attributes necessary to do all this pocket-collapsing stuff is Poe. Which as I and other board members have pointed out numerous times is only true of his Combine results. He didn't actually seem to do that in games. But if you're hellbent on getting a pocket-collapsing DT with at least the physical attributes to be capable of doing that, that's pretty much your main option...and then you draft him and cross your fingers hoping JDR can coach him up. But we then don't hear strident arguments being made that we should give away the store to trade up 10 or 12 spots to get this can't-miss giant DT alien from Planet Theory who would make our defense so much better. It's the dog that didn't bark, because in fact he isn't can't-miss at all, which is the whole point. There are major concerns about actual production in games, and major concerns about the other DT candidates too. At which point one wonders why there is such tunnel vision about the DT position and whether we should at least consider other possibilities.

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      • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post
        I don't think these guys (Poe or someone else) are can't-miss ore even close, it's the DT lobbyists think they're can't miss or at least talk that way, as if it would be insane not to take a DT or even two in the first two rounds. Then when you point out various things wrong with the actual candidates at DT and point out the bust potential at that position more generally they either ignore you, say you're nitpicking, say that they're not world-beaters but will at least be solid picks, or that they've done studies years ago claiming that the bust potential at DT was less than at other spots, even though I found major holes in that claim for the one study we saw posted on the board this year.

        The main argument for DT is theoretical -- wouldn't it be great in theory if we could have a behemoth at DT choking opposing QBs on a regular basis and snuffing out running plays before they get started? Well sure. Except what actual player likely to be available at #25 is going to be capable of that? Why do they think that getting some guy weighing barely 300 pounds is going to be a difference-maker at DT against guards and tackles outweighing him by 20 pounds? The case falls apart when you try to put nuts and bolts to it.

        If you want to turn the abstract theory -- or should that be Planet Theory -- into concrete reality, the closest DT you're going to get with the physical attributes necessary to do all this pocket-collapsing stuff is Poe. Which as I and other board members have pointed out numerous times is only true of his Combine results. He didn't actually seem to do that in games. But if you're hellbent on getting a pocket-collapsing DT with at least the physical attributes to be capable of doing that, that's pretty much your main option...and then you draft him and cross your fingers hoping JDR can coach him up. But we then don't hear strident arguments being made that we should give away the store to trade up 10 or 12 spots to get this can't-miss giant DT alien from Planet Theory who would make our defense so much better. It's the dog that didn't bark, because in fact he isn't can't-miss at all, which is the whole point. There are major concerns about actual production in games, and major concerns about the other DT candidates too. At which point one wonders why there is such tunnel vision about the DT position and whether we should at least consider other possibilities.
        I agree!!! CP Forthcoming :thumb:

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        • Originally posted by BroncoFanBoy View Post
          Elway is like that.. He and the front office did say they would absolutely build around Tim Tebow, and what happened? Peyton Manning is our new QB, and Tebow's a Jet.

          He's hard to figure out, and that's what I like about Elway in our FO.
          At that point and time they were going to start rebuilding around Tebow, that was the only option then. What else would you expect him to say?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CasualFan View Post
            I don't think these guys (Poe or someone else) are can't-miss ore even close, it's the DT lobbyists think they're can't miss or at least talk that way, as if it would be insane not to take a DT or even two in the first two rounds. Then when you point out various things wrong with the actual candidates at DT and point out the bust potential at that position more generally they either ignore you, say you're nitpicking, say that they're not world-beaters but will at least be solid picks, or that they've done studies years ago claiming that the bust potential at DT was less than at other spots, even though I found major holes in that claim for the one study we saw posted on the board this year.

            The main argument for DT is theoretical -- wouldn't it be great in theory if we could have a behemoth at DT choking opposing QBs on a regular basis and snuffing out running plays before they get started? Well sure. Except what actual player likely to be available at #25 is going to be capable of that? Why do they think that getting some guy weighing barely 300 pounds is going to be a difference-maker at DT against guards and tackles outweighing him by 20 pounds? The case falls apart when you try to put nuts and bolts to it.

            If you want to turn the abstract theory -- or should that be Planet Theory -- into concrete reality, the closest DT you're going to get with the physical attributes necessary to do all this pocket-collapsing stuff is Poe. Which as I and other board members have pointed out numerous times is only true of his Combine results. He didn't actually seem to do that in games. But if you're hellbent on getting a pocket-collapsing DT with at least the physical attributes to be capable of doing that, that's pretty much your main option...and then you draft him and cross your fingers hoping JDR can coach him up. But we then don't hear strident arguments being made that we should give away the store to trade up 10 or 12 spots to get this can't-miss giant DT alien from Planet Theory who would make our defense so much better. It's the dog that didn't bark, because in fact he isn't can't-miss at all, which is the whole point. There are major concerns about actual production in games, and major concerns about the other DT candidates too. At which point one wonders why there is such tunnel vision about the DT position and whether we should at least consider other possibilities.
            Why do you seem to think that DT who weigh around 300 aren't very good?

            Geno Atkins-290
            suh-307
            seymour-310
            Justin Smith-285
            ratliff-287
            ziggy hood-300
            alualu-304
            Babineaux-300
            Cullen jenkins-305

            You talk about DT such as Worthy and Reyes and say they won't be star players and have question marks in their games. What picks around 25 don't have question marks? Which of them are such far superior prospects?
            Last edited by broncos SB2010; 04-25-2012, 04:47 PM.
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            • Draft Board

              I found this Denver broncos draft board very interesting.It may not be the actual one,but i guess they are similar to this one.

              Link

              http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/10...ont_Board.html

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              • Originally posted by broncos SB2010 View Post
                Why do you seem to think that DT who weigh around 300 aren't very good?

                Geno Atkins-290
                suh-307
                seymour-310
                Justin Smith-285
                ratliff-287
                ziggy hood-300
                alualu-304
                Babineaux-300
                Cullen jenkins-305

                You talk about DT such as Worthy and Reyes and say they won't be star players and have question marks in their games. What picks around 25 don't have question marks? Which of them are such far superior prospects?
                It's not that they can't be good, it's that they're not a substantial upgrade from what we have now, at least size-wise, and for spending a first-rounder you'd like to improve significantly at the position the player plays at. You're not drafting for depth in Round 1, or just to get some rotational player. If that's what you end up with you failed.

                Besides, if you're going to blather endlessly about the Planet Theory then you can't get that excited about 300-pounders or high-290s guys on that basis. Poe is a player to whom the Planet Theory would actually apply...yet we're not hearing drumbeats for paying whatever it takes in draft picks to make sure we get him. Maybe Brockers to an extent too.

                It is certainly possible for a 300-pounder to be a good player, it's just less likely given a size disadvantage, and less likely that they'll "collapse the pocket" on a regular basis unless they have good pass-rushing skills or are unusually strong or agile. Example: Mike Patterson for the Eagles is a bit undersized at 6'1" and 300 pounds, but he is a former wrestler. If one wants to make those sorts of arguments for the various DT candidates in this year's crop, fine. That's not what we get on this board, though. Instead we get a lot of theory about how it all starts in the trenches and a lot of complaints about historically neglecting the position in reference to coaches that were fired years ago.

                I'm not going to go through all the players you list, some of which are well above 300 pounds anyway (e.g., Seymour, Suh), but the first one, Geno Atkins, was drafted in the fourth round. That pick worked out -- he made the Pro Bowl this year -- but given he was a bit undersized every single GM in the league passed on him until Round 4. For what it's worth, this contradicts the theory that one cannot find useful players at DT in later rounds...but it IS less likely.

                Ziggy Hood plays defensive end, not defensive tackle. He played DT in college but got moved to DE in the pros. Usually DEs are a bit smaller because they have to be quicker and operate more in space than DTs. So Hood is a decent size for DE but nothing special, size-wise, at DT.

                Justin Smith also usually plays at DE, although he does also play inside at DT sometimes. Just by looking at him you can tell that he weighs less than a dominant DT typically would because he doesn't have nearly the bodyfat percentage one usually expects of a DT. So he's undersized but not under-muscled, and in that case one essentially has a player with the physique of an supersized linebacker playing on the line. Suh is also like this to a degree; he's not a fatty. See the pictures.

                49ers: Justin Smith's cash crop superhuman strength

                Jonathan Babineaux got drafted in the bottom of the 2nd round. He turned into a good player, but there's a reason he fell to 59th overall. I wonder what that might be?

                Cullen Jenkins was an undrafted free agent, although I hear that successful DTs late in the draft or undrafted do not actually exist. In any case no one was jumping up and down to draft this guy in Round 1.

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                • Originally posted by getlynched47 View Post
                  Misleading thread title is very misleading.


                  Still,Worthy,and Reyes is still available in the 2nd round.I'm wondering will we trade up for a DT in the next round.

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                  • Originally posted by BroncoSexyDaddy View Post


                    Still,Worthy,and Reyes is still available in the 2nd round.I'm wondering will we trade up for a DT in the next round.
                    http://www.timescall.com/sports/pro-...ded-nfl-drafts

                    ....the Broncos tried to draft a defensive tackle in the first round....
                    ......
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                    • They didn't draft one, but it wasn't for lack of want, as the original quote would indicate. Me thinks that was a bit of subterfuge on Elway's behalf.
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                      • Originally posted by kishzilla View Post
                        They didn't draft one, but it wasn't for lack of want, as the original quote would indicate. Me thinks that was a bit of subterfuge on Elway's behalf.
                        Most fans wanted a DT in the 1st round.It seems to be a smokescreen not selecting good playerss on the board at #25 like a Dont'a Robinson,Courtney Upshaw or Martin.

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                        • Originally posted by BroncoSexyDaddy View Post
                          Most fans wanted a DT in the 1st round.It seems to be a smokescreen not selecting good playerss on the board at #25 like a Dont'a Robinson,Courtney Upshaw or Martin.
                          I was all for drafting Martin or Wilson in the first round if Brockers or Kirkpatrick were gone. Most only wanted a DT though. The way things went, I would have been pissed if we passed on DeCastro... but after PIT grabbed him, then I was fine with trading out.

                          Hightower doesn't fit our scheme, and we've already addressed MLB (drafting irving & resigning Mays). As things played out, we still can pick Worthy-Reyes-Still anyway... plus we get a 4th rounder.

                          Actually, we now have the luxury to splurge. We could take an Upshaw or Jenkins (top-15 talents) and still get a solid DT at #57 (Thompson, Martin, Chapman, Ta'amu).

                          As for RB, which I think is a need, there's always Miller. Plus, we probably have other prospects graded as high as Martin-Wilson, or perhaps we truly do believe in Fannin?

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                          • Originally posted by fraguela09 View Post
                            I was all for drafting Martin or Wilson in the first round if Brockers or Kirkpatrick were gone. Most only wanted a DT though. The way things went, I would have been pissed if we passed on DeCastro... but after PIT grabbed him, then I was fine with trading out.

                            Hightower doesn't fit our scheme, and we've already addressed MLB (drafting irving & resigning Mays). As things played out, we still can pick Worthy-Reyes-Still anyway... plus we get a 4th rounder.

                            Actually, we now have the luxury to splurge. We could take an Upshaw or Jenkins (top-15 talents) and still get a solid DT at #57 (Thompson, Martin, Chapman, Ta'amu).

                            As for RB, which I think is a need, there's always Miller. Plus, we probably have other prospects graded as high as Martin-Wilson, or perhaps we truly do believe in Fannin?
                            I thought Miller was the last pick of the 1st Round.

                            I will be just as happy in the 2nd round today,as long as its an impact player.

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                            • Originally posted by Freyaka View Post
                              History goes a lot longer than one year, Fox, Del Rio, Xanders...They didn't enter the league for the first time last year. Not to mention the orginizational history. I mean if your narrowing your history to time spent with the Broncos sure, you are correct. I am not I'm taking a little less narrow-minded view of things.

                              And as BSD pointed out as a team (which has been around a whole lot longer than one year) we haven't taken a DT in the first since Pryce. This year won't break that trend. We will not be taking a DT in the first this year.
                              Hmmmm........I'm not gonna say I told you so or anything.
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                              • Originally posted by kishzilla View Post
                                They didn't draft one, but it wasn't for lack of want, as the original quote would indicate. Me thinks that was a bit of subterfuge on Elway's behalf.
                                That's really a gross avatar. Any chance it will get changed soon?
                                Where is this season going?

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