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Florence Brings ‘Physical Presence’ to Secondary

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  • BroncoooJohnson
    replied
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    Go ahead and call Tampa 2. Motion from from Pro to Twins will cause a rotation in the secondary. If Z's motion takes him outside X, who is the CB going to jam? He can't jam both. If he jams one, the other gets a clean release and the flat is open for Flare/Wheel route. It also opens up backside routes. In a tight formation with two off receivers, it causes additional problems.

    When a zone defender jams, he is occupied and can't manage his zone of responsibility on a consistent basis. It's unsound defense. Sound defensive coverage technique is to jam when in cover 1/0 or in combo man. It isn't as easy as some seem to think. It's riskier for a zone defender than for man.

    DBs in Cover 1/0 are lined up inside their man. Zone defenders aren't usually. Jamming from the outside allows an inside release which is not usually desirable especially in a split front with Cover 2/Tampa 2 as the call. Is there a DB in the NFL who can successfully jam any receiver all the time? I'm sure there are some who can't jam well most of the time.

    I can understand a D getting burned when O runs against a blitz call or bites too hard on PAP, but not as a result of poor technique.
    In that very specific instance, it would be tough to jam, but in the basis of their offense they press the outside receiver and play the flats, which isn't difficult whatsoever unless they're spread out or in tight.

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  • samparnell
    replied
    Originally posted by #24 Next Champ View Post
    I know what 1 and zero are lol

    1 has deep middle safety looking for who got beat over top/route to jump if everyone is good

    0 changes technique because now you have no safety help at all because it's a blitz

    Well I get what you're saying cuz that's your personnel, but we're talkin bout Broncos man
    OK.

    Drayton Florence seems like he could do some redirecting of routes. Omar Bolden may turn into an NFL DB who can do that, too.

    There are a lot of big receivers in the NFL today. They are much more difficult to jam and there aren't DBs who are nearly as large. That technique has its limits even in the NFL. The level of football isn't nearly as much of an issue as the matchup problems.
    Last edited by samparnell; 05-26-2012, 07:14 PM.

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  • #24 Next Champ
    replied
    I know what 1 and zero are lol

    1 has deep middle safety looking for who got beat over top/route to jump if everyone is good

    0 changes technique because now you have no safety help at all because it's a blitz

    Well I get what you're saying cuz that's your personnel, but we're talkin bout Broncos man

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  • samparnell
    replied
    Originally posted by #24 Next Champ View Post
    Also (continuation of previous post)

    In cover 2, inside release is EXACTLY what you want, c'mon now Sam...where is your help? You have all your help on the inside zones that should be perfect for eliminating crosses/slants...

    You have no help outside (behind you) unless it's a unique 2 coverage...

    The safeties have to play somewhat even (fair) because if they super cheat to the outside it'll show up on film and teams will burn you all day with the TE or slot WR seam routes up the middle (plus safties often don't wanna tip it off to the QB that it's two so often times they're not in good position in first second or two after snap)

    My CB coach would scream at us constantly "DON'T LET YOUR MAN GET A FREE OUTSIDE RELEASE, IF HE'S BENT ON IT MAKE HIM EARN IT SO OUR SAFETIES HAVE TIME TO GET THERE" because it's more important to risk a completion in the flats than having a WR hit in stride with one safety to beat over top
    You misunderstood me. Cover 1/0 is line up inside force to the outside. I don't recall having said zone corners should allow an outside release. Cover 1/0 is not zone.

    A cover 2 Corner who jams hard from the outside runs the risk of being beaten off the jam. The point I was attempting to make is that jamming in zone is risky. Risk of a flag and risk of being defeated resulting in the clean release.

    We seem to differ in DB technique. I am of the opinion that if you're playing man, jam and cover. If you're playing zone, play it, but don't get burned as a result of being cute; drop, read, break.

    I'm not a huge fan of cover 2 anyway. None of the guys I coached were fast enough to play deep halves, and my corners were usually small and not good at jamming. My philosophy probably stems from that.

    We used mostly cover 1 and 3 (middle of the field closed) expecting sideline passes to be more difficult for our opponents to complete. Tampa 2 is actually a combo version of cover 3 if Mike can take the seam. We ran a split six and had four Backers for the short zones. Cover 3 was effective and we had plenty of blitz packages in cover 1.
    Last edited by samparnell; 05-26-2012, 04:34 PM.

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  • #24 Next Champ
    replied
    Also (continuation of previous post)

    In cover 2, inside release is EXACTLY what you want, c'mon now Sam...where is your help? You have all your help on the inside zones that should be perfect for eliminating crosses/slants...

    You have no help outside (behind you) unless it's a unique 2 coverage...

    The safeties have to play somewhat even (fair) because if they super cheat to the outside it'll show up on film and teams will burn you all day with the TE or slot WR seam routes up the middle (plus safties often don't wanna tip it off to the QB that it's two so often times they're not in good position in first second or two after snap)

    My CB coach would scream at us constantly "DON'T LET YOUR MAN GET A FREE OUTSIDE RELEASE, IF HE'S BENT ON IT MAKE HIM EARN IT SO OUR SAFETIES HAVE TIME TO GET THERE" because it's more important to risk a completion in the flats than having a WR hit in stride with one safety to beat over top

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  • #24 Next Champ
    replied
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    Go ahead and call Tampa 2. Motion from from Pro to Twins will cause a rotation in the secondary. If Z's motion takes him outside X, who is the CB going to jam? He can't jam both. If he jams one, the other gets a clean release and the flat is open for Flare/Wheel route. It also opens up backside routes. In a tight formation with two off receivers, it causes additional problems.

    When a zone defender jams, he is occupied and can't manage his zone of responsibility on a consistent basis. It's unsound defense. Sound defensive coverage technique is to jam when in cover 1/0 or in combo man. It isn't as easy as some seem to think. It's riskier for a zone defender than for man.

    DBs in Cover 1/0 are lined up inside their man. Zone defenders aren't usually. Jamming from the outside allows an inside release which is not usually desirable especially in a split front with Cover 2/Tampa 2 as the call. Is there a DB in the NFL
    who can successfully jam any receiver all the time?
    It's not risky in cover2...

    Everything you just mentioned shouldn't be a factor because the safety should be calling out the correct coverages BASED on formations...if there's motion u gameplan to that ...

    I.e. at my school if we were in "2 check" (cover 2 press) n had a motion man (depending on side) we'd check to "3 Zorro" where the motion-side CB maintains his "2 press" n we roll a cover 3 coverage over to that side (slight variations were always worked in based on team's tendencies n formations during the wk of practice) but you get the jist ...

    I ran that in HS...I'm sure the pros (who have so much time to dedicate to it have an ample amount of "checks" n audibles for motions

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  • samparnell
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoooJohnson View Post
    Are you forgetting one of the most common defensive schemes? The Tampa 2 is notorious for being physical at the line, yet the corners don't play man most of the time, they play the flats.
    Go ahead and call Tampa 2. Motion from from Pro to Twins will cause a rotation in the secondary. If Z's motion takes him outside X, who is the CB going to jam? He can't jam both. If he jams one, the other gets a clean release and the flat is open for Flare/Wheel route. It also opens up backside routes. In a tight formation with two off receivers, it causes additional problems.

    When a zone defender jams, he is occupied and can't manage his zone of responsibility on a consistent basis. It's unsound defense. Sound defensive coverage technique is to jam when in cover 1/0 or in combo man. It isn't as easy as some seem to think. It's riskier for a zone defender than for man.

    DBs in Cover 1/0 are lined up inside their man. Zone defenders aren't usually. Jamming from the outside allows an inside release which is not usually desirable especially in a split front with Cover 2/Tampa 2 as the call. Is there a DB in the NFL who can successfully jam any receiver all the time? I'm sure there are some who can't jam well most of the time.

    I can understand a D getting burned when O runs against a blitz call or bites too hard on PAP, but not as a result of poor technique.
    Last edited by samparnell; 05-26-2012, 03:34 PM.

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  • Br0nc0Buster
    replied
    Champ is great at everything, he allows you to run any scheme

    We played off because we played more cover 1 last year
    I think we are going to a press zone scheme with more coverage over the top

    Im excited about our defense this year
    Theoretically if Doom and Von can put the heat on if we build a lead, it should lead to more turnovers than we had last year
    Last edited by Br0nc0Buster; 05-26-2012, 02:56 PM.

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  • #24 Next Champ
    replied
    Originally posted by BroncoooJohnson View Post
    I'll beg to differ, IMO, Revis is great in the press, but Nnamdi is better. Revis just has better ball skills and probably better hips than Nnamdi, but there's no way I'm giving it to Revis over Nnamdi.
    Sorry bro, I'll respectfully disagree ...

    Nnamdi has a good jam (n long arms which helps) but he's too big n stiff to bend n use leverage ...he can't get his hands on the quicker guys...

    Revis imo is the best CB in the game when it comes to physicality at the LOS ...

    Still take Champ overall though...

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoooJohnson
    replied
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    DBs only jam at LOS in Cover 1/0 or combo and the DB jamming is in man. DBs in zone don't jam because they drop, read and break. Man coverage should always line up inside the receiver and force him to the outside, run hip to hip and watch for when he turns his head to look for the ball. The receiver's eyes will tell the DB when to look for the ball.
    Are you forgetting one of the most common defensive schemes? The Tampa 2 is notorious for being physical at the line, yet the corners don't play man most of the time, they play the flats.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroncoooJohnson
    replied
    Originally posted by #24 Next Champ View Post
    ^ just to note Champ is also very good with having patience on his jam to get leverage ...watch him, he usually waits for the WR to make his first break to one side (off-balance, gain leverage) n then hits him as hard as he can ...

    His technique in press is just as good as Revis, Revis is just strong as hell n without a doubt the best CB in the game when it comes to jamming at the LOS
    I'll beg to differ, IMO, Revis is great in the press, but Nnamdi is better. Revis just has better ball skills and probably better hips than Nnamdi, but there's no way I'm giving it to Revis over Nnamdi.

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  • #24 Next Champ
    replied
    ^ just to note Champ is also very good with having patience on his jam to get leverage ...watch him, he usually waits for the WR to make his first break to one side (off-balance, gain leverage) n then hits him as hard as he can ...

    His technique in press is just as good as Revis, Revis is just strong as hell n without a doubt the best CB in the game when it comes to jamming at the LOS

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  • #24 Next Champ
    replied
    Originally posted by samparnell View Post
    DBs only jam at LOS in Cover 1/0 or combo and the DB jamming is in man. DBs in zone don't jam because they drop, read and break. Man coverage should always line up inside the receiver and force him to the outside, run hip to hip and watch for when he turns his head to look for the ball. The receiver's eyes will tell the DB when to look for the ball.
    Not entirely true ...

    You can press in cover 2 as well as in 3-bail

    Often in cover 2, you have to press because if the WR gets free release outside the hash, there's no way your safety can get there, also you might as well because you're staying put anyways (no risk of getting burned if you get bad/no hand placement) which obviously shouldn't happen if you know how to press (something I use to pride myself on) get the first hand on em for control then hit them hard with the second n get in front of the WR's route (getting a good jam can take real patience)...also disguise your jam by looking as though you're gonna bail at the last second by backing up or waiting till the WR has made his first break (within 3-5 yds) and is that little bit of off-balance so you can gain leverage (something Revis does so well)

    Also 3-bail is often used as a disguise as normally in cover 3, the CB's aren't going to press so if you do get a quick shove n redirect it can throw the QB off because it looks like cover 1/or 0 or even 2

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  • samparnell
    replied
    DBs only jam at LOS in Cover 1/0 or combo and the DB jamming is in man. DBs in zone don't jam because they drop, read and break. Man coverage should always line up inside the receiver and force him to the outside, run hip to hip and watch for when he turns his head to look for the ball. The receiver's eyes will tell the DB when to look for the ball.

    Leave a comment:


  • one_bad_55
    replied
    I am no expert by any means but I think they back off based on the coverage that is called. I think they also backoff the fast recievers as to not get beat long because our safeties were either slow or inexperienced.

    We have not had a strong secondary in so many years I think they would backoff a little and it costs them everytime. Now with some veterans in the secondary it wouldn't surprise me that they do exactly what you are talking about and jam at the line.

    This year is going to be so exciting. Peyton controlling the long drives for TD's and our D smacking our opponents in the mouth and taking the ball back.

    Leave a comment:

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